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Is it too late to nominate this for post of the year. Great post BillS
Peck, I understand what you are saying, and yes the franchise was built on a foundation (Artest and JO) that was not stable. But the Pacers went for it they gambled and for that I will never fault TPTB for doing so. Sure it didn't work out - but they tried to make the very "championship moves" that so many Pacers fans wanted them to make.
Last edited by Unclebuck; 05-13-2008 at 10:04 AM.
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...and now in hindsight they're getting their noses rubbed in it.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, I was one who initially wanted TPTB to work things out w/Ron-Ron even after he spouted off a second time when Walsh gave him an open door to come talk to him about whatever problem he (and RC) were having. But once it came out that he was a big disturbance in the locker room, I'd had enough! It was time for the experiment to end. Little did any of us know, however, that the prolonged wait to be rid of him would add to and extend the agony that originated with the Brawl. Regardless, it was the right move to make on both sides of the coin.
The Pacers needed another tough-minded force on the team because for so long they played like a soft team. Artest's presence did put fear in the minds of nearly every team out there. No doubt about it! But his temperment was so out of control; you never knew what would set him off (ala, David Harrison which is one of the reason I don't think he'll be back next year, but that's another topic all together). Still, the reason Artest was ousted wasn't because of his on/off-court issues. Walsh traded him because he disrespected the franchise by insisting on being traded. And after investing so much in this guy and standing by him throughout all the chaos, there just was no way TPTB could standby him any longer. He had to go.
Herb for Det
Chuck/Mike for Pooh/Sam
Pooh for Jax
Jax for Rose
Det for McKey
Tony for #5 pick
Rose/Best for Brad/Ron
Dale for JO
Al for Jack
Ron for Peja
Peja/TE for Al
Jack/Al for Mike/Troy/Ike
I mean it's a lot easier to find seasons where a starter wasn't changed. How in the world were the Pacers going to 61 wins with Rose/Best instead?
Also the 61 win team not only had the top record overall, they had the top record VERSUS WEST TEAMS. It's not like they were just in an easy conference. That team was the best team in the regular season without question and was perhaps the #2 team in the postseason.
Going for that with Ron and JO is all about doing whatever it takes to win. Moving Al for Jack was too, an attempt to shore up outside shooting weakness that Detroit took advantage of.
John Green misses that game and all of this is a moot point. For all we know crazy Ron would have kept walking that line he's walked in Sacto, but with the team winning. This would have made him Rodman on a Pacers Bad Boys instead of the time bomb of destruction.
I'm so sick of this being spun way off into "obvious". It wasn't and isn't. It was close, it was walking the edge, and it slipped. Sucks, but you can't have regrets when you at least made the effort.
Perhaps in the aftermath they didn't react quickly enough, TPTB and the fans were both in a bit of aftershock and it took some time to realize that they'd passed the point of no return. If anything you can blame Rick for doing too good a job holding it together, making it seem like it could still be turned around.
And a frustrating thing with all this is that the solution will be to campaign to have the Colts thrown under the bus TOO, rather than lightening up on the Pacers a little. How about we support the team, stop buying into this "fans vs players" thing that now envelops the Pacers and start holding the press a bit more accountable.
This is 100% the same as my Al Unser Jr thing that BK then ran with a few years ago, how DUI Al could kick his girlfriend out of the car on the side of 465 and then show up at the track drunk and nothing was made of it. He still would (and does) get a line for autographs.
Somewhere along the line it became cool to buy into the negative spin for all things Pacers and a lot of people right here at PD feel that this is normal and expected. What I'm saying is that if you step back and try to remove some emotion this isn't normal.
The stories in Indy aren't nearly what some of the problems with other teams have been. Other players have been shot at, other players have actually been injured by attacks, and tons of players have been involved in off-court scuffles ala 8 Seconds. It's almost like Indy now has a chip on the shoulder to be a tough town with big stories, and the national feed just falls in line with whatever comes out of here because they don't care any more than they ever have about what goes on in Indy.
If the local reporting hadn't said anything about Rio, Could 9, 8 Seconds you wouldn't have heard one thing nationally. This is clearly the case with Harrison and Philly. Philly has MUCH BIGGER fish to fry right now so his story falls way off their radar, even the police radar.
But if this was in Brizzi's hands and Marv was a Pacer? Dude would be cuing up the Who and slapping on the shades and the press would eat it up.
And I won't be here to see the day
It all dries up and blows away
I'd hang around just to see
But they never had much use for me
In Levelland. (James McMurtry)
I make a statement that no one actually refutes other than with feelings and wishes and dreams yet it's being put that I'm the hypocritical one here?
Hmmmmm..... How shall I put this?
To my memory, and yes my advancing age does make me forgetfull at times, but I seem to recall that there were three people who daily were on here for a year or more prior to the brawl screaming at the top of thier lungs that this team was going to fall apart.
Chicago Jay, Bball and Me.
Please do not put any form of spin that nobody could have seen or predicted this coming, because we did. Go do any form of history search and you will see that not once in the past 5 years have I ever made the statement that it would be a good idea to keep both O'Neal & Artest.
Maybe it's because I knew about Artest trashing the Min. locker room and then J.O. and him pushing and shoving each other on the plane. Or that the day of the Clippers blow out J.O. and Artest were in the locker room fighting about 3 hours before tip off. Or that J.O. told Mike Brown in front of Pacers staffers that it is either him or me (meaning Ron). I could go on but what is the point.
Let's not forget that a certain reporter was demoted from beat writer to whatever his job became because he was outed in his own paper for covering for the fact that the Pacers had to actually convince Ron Artest to get on the team plane after game 6 vs. Miaimi.
This does not even take into consideration all of the problems with Tinsley or Jackson who if some of you will recall dissapeared on game day vs the Celtics after a team member (Dale Davis) called him an ***. Well did all of you know that the Pacers had to send Chuck Person out to find him and after a 4 hour hug session with Jackson telling him how much the team loved him he finally showed up at the fieldhouse 1 hour before tip off?
Some of you are just disagreeing with me because it's me, that's cool. But noone on here can call me a hypocrit because I have not changed my mind or my story once.
The combination of Jermaine O'Neal and Ron Artest was a disaster. The Pacers house of cards was built on sand.
We can demonize John Green all we want, we can pretend that if only nothing would have happened that night we would have won a title but since then we have been targeted by the evil David Stern and are being held down by the man.
But that is all an illusion.
We were like the movie Phenomenon. We were given an incredible gift and powers yet at the end of the day what we thought was a great power ended up being a fatal tumor.
But in our case this was a tumor that we knew about and could have done early surgery on.
Peck, during Isiah's last season - two years before the brawl, I remember several posts I made about how that team was very fragile, and wasn't really stable. But it was also very good, so even with the enormous risks I was willing to "see what happened"
I also remember making a post about a week after we acquired Artest, telling Pacers fans that Artest will be the most polarizing Pacer player ever to put on the Pacers uniform and we all need to get set for a wild and bumpy ride - so I said we all need to just hang on - because it won't be boring.
If you remember I never argued with you, Jay or Bball about the team possibly falling apart nor did I argue with anyone about how crazy Artest was. But I did argue that he was worth it and worth the gamble. I was of course wrong about that in the end as were TPTB, but almost everyone knew the risks.
Disclaimer: clearly I had no idea anytime appraching the brawl was even possible of taking place.
Last edited by Unclebuck; 05-13-2008 at 03:03 PM.
I admit that I, for one, didn't know what was going on and didn't anticipate what eventually did happen. I was living on a moutaintop in Asia during those years (yes I am Bruce Wayne), and none of the inside stuff Peck mentions in #34 got through. (I should have subscribed to PD sooner.) One day, all I knew was that the Pacers were coming off a 61-win season and were playing great, and then the next day the Pacers were a global pariah.
Last edited by Putnam; 05-13-2008 at 02:58 PM.
And I won't be here to see the day
It all dries up and blows away
I'd hang around just to see
But they never had much use for me
In Levelland. (James McMurtry)
From what I've read fights in locker rooms aren't anything out of the ordinary, and neither are contentious locker rooms, so for the Pacers brass it could have looked like business as usual.
From my point of view, and no doubt the Pacers brass point of view, it was a hassle, but it wasn't much hurting the team on the floor, and that's mainly what you look at when you are in charge, the end result. Sixty-one wins and a great start to another season was a good result!
We can make all the assumptions we want about what we hear or read, but it's nothing like being there person. And even then if we only see or hear part of what goes on it will sway our opinion to one we wouldn't normally have if we knew everything.
My point is you, Bball, and . . . who the heck is ChicagoJ? You weren't there, you were only going on what you heard and it was far from complete.
Of course you guys can pat yourself on the back because of the way it turned out, but it wasn't the forgone conclusion you think it was.
ChicagoJ is the poster formally known as Jay@Section204 and so forth.
This was not a way to pat myself on the back even if it seems that way. I was just simply making a statement that the star posted something I disagreed with. Then there was a slew of posts disagreeing with me, which I have no problem with btw. I then just simply then made further claim that it was not something that people were not aware of.
As U.B. stated and I believe that Walsh agreed with him that they new the potential and that they took a calculated risk. I disagreed with that risk, but as you stated I don't know what goes on behind closed doors.
But where I took some contention was the fact that it seemed that some were going to go the route of saying hind sight being 20/20 and with that I will strongly disagree because some of us were saying then.
Ok, I've said enough. This post was not supposed to be about this.
Back to lurker mode.
Nah, I'm kidding. However it doesn't matter the circumstances, you guys were right, and that deserves a pat on the back. Not that I like it that you were right dang it, but you deserve it!
Totally off topic here but that photo in your avatar, is that a shot you took down in the keys or is that something off of the net?
You're out in the sun now, might as well hang out with us for awhile, have a beer, and join pointless firey rants over who we should draft weeks before the lottery is even set.
I'm not saying that, not pulling the "Stern was against us" card. I'm STRONGLY suggesting that plenty of disfunctional teams have rumbled onto titles, sometimes due specifically to that aspect. Some guys work with each other almost as a means to show each other up. Some guys just end up taking it out on the other team.We can demonize John Green all we want, we can pretend that if only nothing would have happened that night we would have won a title but since then we have been targeted by the evil David Stern and are being held down by the man.
Rodman WAS high maintenance, dude's got rings (plural). The 76-78 Yanks were a swirling mess of borderline implosion. Shaq and Kobe, BFFs.
So stop acting like it was obviously going to fall apart. It did fall apart, but it was never obvious. I mean this team won games after many of the instances you mention. NONE OF THOSE were deal breakers in and of themselves, yet you dismiss Green and the brawl, a clear breakpoint, in favor of this list of incidents that came before.
So what if Jack, Ron and JO couldn't deal after winning the title for the 04-05 season, or that the momentum of that title could only band-aid them together for one more title run before falling apart like the Lakers. It is most certainly not obvious that it wouldn't have gone that way because it has worked that way many times over with other teams.
Do you really think things never got heated in the Bulls locker room? With Jordan and his antognistic ego? Phil never had to sweet talk Kobe into staying with the team or playing nice with Shaq?
Come on Peck, this is big boy sports and while I don't want to fully dismiss the chemistry concerns in play, we all know that they are often not dealbreakers. Heck, some of the biggest flops have come when a bunch of friends get together for a seeming "dream team".
Or weren't Al and JO great pals prior to his rejoining the team?
C'mon, Peck. Just because I haven't posted anything Pacers related in about two years doesn't mean I didn't in the past. I can't believe I'm not on that short list of yours. See if I ever send you a John Kerry T-shirt again.
Thus my comments about Mark not reporting it. If a guy has seen it all before then it's normal life and not worth reporting. This just in, Wednesday is trash day.From what I've read fights in locker rooms aren't anything out of the ordinary, and neither are contentious locker rooms, so for the Pacers brass it could have looked like business as usual.
I think Indy still has small-man syndrome and is constantly looking to keep up in all aspects, including drama. 8 Seconds would NOT get reported in Chicago or Philly or NY.
I mean the Knicks had a sexual harassment lawsuit AND Marbury implying blackmail and neither was dumped at the time. In fact had that team won 40-50 games both guys would still be there. That's sustained behavior on a daily basis, not a heat of the moment with a drunken criminal.
The girls name is Pecky. (grin)
Last edited by Will Galen; 05-14-2008 at 03:17 AM.
The images have to be on the Internet. You seem to be linking directly to the files on your computer.
I'd also like to point out that Zeke coached the All-Star game in his last season prior to Carlisle leading the squad to 61 wins. 34-15 at the All-Star break is pretty damn good ( of course 14-19 afterwards has become the norm as of late).
My point is even with the youth, Thomas as coach and a horrible second half collapse that team nearly won 50 and was on pace to win 60. Then Rick comes in and they win 61 ( which I credit player experience as much as coaching BTW). Here's my jab at Rick guys....then the team fell apart.
What about Ron being kept under control for his only AS and DPOY awards? That's not player experience and Rick isn't the only guy to struggle with him, he's just the only one to keep him focused for a full season.