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Thread: I have a serious question for PDers

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    Raw Talent Robertmto's Avatar
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    Default I have a serious question for PDers

    After reading through thousands of posts on here after the brawl days I've noticed something, yet no one else had ever seem to bring it up (or at least have a serious debate about it)

    Would you rather have a team full of "thugs" (smh) that wins their games, plays defense, makes it to the playoffs, and actually has a legitimate shot at doing something in the playoffs.

    Or would you rather have a team full of players with no "off the court issues" that can't do a damn thing on the court. (sorry 07-08 Pacers)

    I've seen comments referring to not wanting Melo because of his "rep", I've seen people swear up and down that trading SJax was a GOOD thing for this team WHEN IT COMES TO A BASKETBALL STANDPOINT. I've seen people say don;t trade for Marcus Williams because of his "character", I've seen people say trade Quisy and Shawne because of their "character". I've seen people saying don;t draft Mayo because of his "character" (although i wouldn't want him because he's horrid at basketball ) And of course there is the Ron Ron thing.

    So to those whom it may concern: is PR really that important to YOU, that you are willing to go through multiple losing seasons just so you can say "well at least we're squeaky clean!"
    STARBURY

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    Member CableKC's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a serious question for PDers

    Is it a really black and white question where the "milk drinkers" will never improve and be destined to be nothing more then a 1st round exit?

    or

    Is it just going to take longer for the "milk drinkers" to improve to the point where they can contend?
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Raw Talent Robertmto's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a serious question for PDers

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Is it a really black and white question where the "milk drinkers" will never improve and be destined to be nothing more then a 1st round exit?

    or

    Is it just going to take longer for the "milk drinkers" to improve to the point where they can contend?
    well if u ask me, the current team has no chance to do anything
    STARBURY

    08 and Beyond

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    It Might Be a Soft J JayRedd's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a serious question for PDers

    If it meant getting back to the Finals, I'd happilly take a squad of JKidd, AI, Ron Ron, Chuckster and Shawn Kemp with Rodman, Latrell, Jack, Vernon Maxwell, Vin Baker, Damon Stoudamire, Anthony Mason, Olden Polynice, Qyntel Woods and Jayson Williams on the bench.

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    Raw Talent Robertmto's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a serious question for PDers

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    If it meant getting back to the Finals, I'd happilly take a squad of JKidd, AI, Ron Ron, Chuckster and Shawn Kemp with Rodman, Latrell, Jack, Vernon Maxwell, Vin Baker, Damon Stoudamire, Anthony Mason, Olden Polynice, Qyntel Woods and Jayson Williams on the bench.
    thsi is how I am too, but it seems as if we are in the minority
    STARBURY

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    It Might Be a Soft J JayRedd's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a serious question for PDers

    Pretty sweet criminal list here, btw.

    http://sports-law.blogspot.com/2005/...e-with_20.html

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    You Did It Joseph!!!! AesopRockOn's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a serious question for PDers

    He may not get us to the mountaintop,
    but he'll get us to the playoffs.

    And that's all we want.

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    flexible and robust SoupIsGood's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a serious question for PDers

    The goal is to win consistently, with the corollary here being that you aren't going to win consistently with a team full of idiots/criminals/nutcases. Why is the choice between rooting for idiots and winning and rooting for "milk-drinkers" and losing when this isn't really the case?

    I want to Pacers to take steps toward being a consistent winner again. One of those steps happens to be fleecing the team of its idiots. Another would be acquiring players whose bodies won't break down halfway through the season. Another is cutting salary. Etc etc. To me this is all part of a larger problem, so there really is no "well at least we're squeaky clean!" except as far as the being squeaky-clean is part of getting back on the winning track. So there is no "We suck, but at least we're squeaky clean!" but there is possibly a "We suck, but seem to have a clear plan in place that leaves hope for the next few seasons!"
    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

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    Default Re: I have a serious question for PDers

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    Pretty sweet criminal list here, btw.

    http://sports-law.blogspot.com/2005/...e-with_20.html
    All due respect to Olden Polynice and his nice criminal achievements.
    But WOW..... Jayson Williams? Manslaughter + i read somewhere that he shot his dog with a shotgun, then pointed the shotgun at his teammate Dwayne Schintzius and told him to clean up the remains of the dog.


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    Default Re: I have a serious question for PDers

    This question has been asked multiple times btw.

    The OP seems to think we should still have SJAX. This team still wouldn't be doing anything if we had him.

    The problem right now is that we have a bunch of "thugs" who won't win anything, and can't get healthy enough to see the court. I would support and cheer for a group of good guys who are terrible and hussle before I could stand behind some thugs shooting up strip clubs. There is no defending someone doing that sort of thing. The best game I have seen the Pacers play was the first game after the brawl against Orlando. Those six players played an amazing game.

    I don't enjoy watching players whine and moan after every call or no call. I want to put a box of Midol in JO's locker. Play the game.

    This isn't just on the players though. TPTB haven't sat on any of our players like they should have. Stern does not punish the players, especially his "superstars". The players feel like they can get away with anything. Look at how Goodell is cleaning up the NFL.

    Soup said it pretty well. Why shouldn't we aim to get good players as well as good human beings? We souldn't have to choose which of the two we would prefer. It should be expected that they perform well on and off the court. The players don't compete, and they are a PR nightmare. Lets get rid of the problems, and build a team that will compete.

  11. #11
    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a serious question for PDers

    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge View Post
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    This question has been asked multiple times btw.

    The OP seems to think we should still have SJAX. This team still wouldn't be doing anything if we had him.

    The problem right now is that we have a bunch of "thugs" who won't win anything, and can't get healthy enough to see the court. I would support and cheer for a group of good guys who are terrible and hussle before I could stand behind some thugs shooting up strip clubs. There is no defending someone doing that sort of thing. The best game I have seen the Pacers play was the first game after the brawl against Orlando. Those six players played an amazing game.

    I don't enjoy watching players whine and moan after every call or no call. I want to put a box of Midol in JO's locker. Play the game.

    This isn't just on the players though. TPTB haven't sat on any of our players like they should have. Stern does not punish the players, especially his "superstars". The players feel like they can get away with anything. Look at how Goodell is cleaning up the NFL.

    Soup said it pretty well. Why shouldn't we aim to get good players as well as good human beings? We souldn't have to choose which of the two we would prefer. It should be expected that they perform well on and off the court. The players don't compete, and they are a PR nightmare. Lets get rid of the problems, and build a team that will compete.
    Seth has got an early competitor for "most offensive" - watch out Nap!

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    Default Re: I have a serious question for PDers

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    If it meant getting back to the Finals, I'd happilly take a squad of JKidd, AI, Ron Ron, Chuckster and Shawn Kemp with Rodman, Latrell, Jack, Vernon Maxwell, Vin Baker, Damon Stoudamire, Anthony Mason, Olden Polynice, Qyntel Woods and Jayson Williams on the bench.
    I'm not sure why I bother to post sometimes, since Jay has already said what I'm thinking.

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    Default Re: I have a serious question for PDers

    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge View Post
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    The players feel like they can get away with anything. Look at how Goodell is cleaning up the NFL.
    He's got a long ways to go.

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    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a serious question for PDers

    Quote Originally Posted by SoupIsGood View Post
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    The goal is to win consistently, with the corollary here being that you aren't going to win consistently with a team full of idiots/criminals/nutcases. Why is the choice between rooting for idiots and winning and rooting for "milk-drinkers" and losing when this isn't really the case?

    I want to Pacers to take steps toward being a consistent winner again. One of those steps happens to be fleecing the team of its idiots. Another would be acquiring players whose bodies won't break down halfway through the season. Another is cutting salary. Etc etc. To me this is all part of a larger problem, so there really is no "well at least we're squeaky clean!" except as far as the being squeaky-clean is part of getting back on the winning track. So there is no "We suck, but at least we're squeaky clean!" but there is possibly a "We suck, but seem to have a clear plan in place that leaves hope for the next few seasons!"
    This is the key. Obviously, I think most of us would mortgage the future/soul of the team for just one championship a la Miami or Boston. However, what's the point of winning 61 games and reaching the ECF if your second best player is going to meltdown in the most important game of the season? And then destroy the possibility of contending single-handedly the next two seasons?

    Also, I seriously doubt that JayRedd's team would win anything simply based on the lack of chemistry that team would have. The goal in Pacerland these days needs to be consistency. If you have nutcases and "thugs," oftentimes that distracts and affects consistency negatively. As I said in the Josh Howard thread though, I couldn't care less about off-the-court stuff as long as it doesn't affect on-the-court stuff, which it often does, unfortunately.

    I think the GSW trade results aren't really debatable (the Dubs won that one). However, I think the pure Jack-Dunleavy swap idea holds considerable merit for the aforementioned reasons. Jack is better, no doubt, but Dunleavy is consistent and you know what you'll get from him, night in and night out. Dun's a better fit for an organization looking for on-and-off the court consistency. For an organization like GS, which needed some extra talent in the backcourt, Jack was worth the price/risk.

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    dennaB Twes's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a serious question for PDers

    The reality is if the team is winning it's a lot easier to put up with some off the court nonsense.

    It would be nice to have core superstar players that aren't idiots off the court so that they could plug in a Rodman or Artest occasionally without changing the whole face of the team.

    I still love the crazy shutdown ability of Artest.

    As long as we're hypotheticially building the next generation of Pacers though we might as well build it with guys who win AND haven't been arrested.

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    Member Erik's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a serious question for PDers

    One thing that I think about is using these players sucsess as examples to young people. You can show them that if you are a good citizen and work hard you can acheive things, or you can show them that you can live however you want and as long as you have talent you will still win and be rich.

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    Default Re: I have a serious question for PDers

    In theory I don't care about character. All winning teams have had some bad apples, hell, even MJ was far from really clean and Reggie as well.

    But have a team with a lack of good character bit us in the *** four years ago and has derailed this franchise. So I don't blame the people who want milkdrinkers. And hell, why can't we have a winning team full of pretty good citizens. Look what Portland has done with their franchise. They'll be contending for the title in 2-3 years and be doing so for maybe the next 6 or 7 years at least. That's what I would prefer.
    Last edited by idioteque; 05-11-2008 at 10:49 AM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: I have a serious question for PDers

    Quote Originally Posted by SoupIsGood View Post
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    The goal is to win consistently, with the corollary here being that you aren't going to win consistently with a team full of idiots/criminals/nutcases. Why is the choice between rooting for idiots and winning and rooting for "milk-drinkers" and losing when this isn't really the case?
    There are plenty of teams that have won with players that many fans seem to consider "idiots/criminals/nutcases". SJax and Rasheed come to mind. If having "milk drinkers" is really the key to winning then why has the team gotten worse the more of them we add? Why have the ultimate "milk drinkers", Dun and Troy, never sniffed the playoffs? Surely with those two, Travis, and Danny we should have enough to get to the playoffs in the weak east. Or is the truth simply that talent is more important?

    I keep hearing how this team was destroyed by "thugs". I don't believe that. This team was destroyed by injuries and poor managment. Injuries that have kept key talent off the floor and poor managment reactions to the few real issues the team has had - namely Ron Artest. Without injuries a core of JO, DG, Sjax, JT, and Foster would still be a contender in the east. Without poor managment the teams future would be much brighter than it is now. IMO, fans have latched on to the off court stuff primarily because the on floor product is poor. Let's see how many fans turn in their Colts tickets after KK's run in, the Harrison shooting, and the signing of Rhodes.

    The truth is that the key to building a team is balance and on court chemistry. Meaning that you can certainly win with players that you wouldn't want to watch your kids. IMO, you have to look past the headlines and figure out who causes true on court issues that restrict winning. I want no part of Ricky Davis, Stephon Marbury, or Zack Randolph, but I'd take SJax or Rasheed Wallace in a heart beat. I just hope TPTB understand the difference, because it doesn't appear many fans do.

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    flexible and robust SoupIsGood's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a serious question for PDers

    Quote Originally Posted by rm1369 View Post
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    There are plenty of teams that have won with players that many fans seem to consider "idiots/criminals/nutcases". SJax and Rasheed come to mind. If having "milk drinkers" is really the key to winning then why has the team gotten worse the more of them we add? Why have the ultimate "milk drinkers", Dun and Troy, never sniffed the playoffs? Surely with those two, Travis, and Danny we should have enough to get to the playoffs in the weak east. Or is the truth simply that talent is more important?
    Yeah, but there's almost always a core group of players with an actual head on their shoulders to keep that one troublemaker in line. I'm not saying that having a team full of "milk-drinkers" is the key to winning, but that having a team full of idiots/criminals/nutcases is pretty obviously not. And that's what the question was.
    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

  20. #20
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a serious question for PDers

    Really? This hasn't been discussed?

    Regardless, a team full of dysfunctional players won't win you a championship.
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    Default Re: I have a serious question for PDers

    Quote Originally Posted by Robertmto View Post
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    Would you rather have a team full of "thugs" (smh) that wins their games, plays defense, makes it to the playoffs, and actually has a legitimate shot at doing something in the playoffs.

    Or would you rather have a team full of players with no "off the court issues" that can't do a damn thing on the court. (sorry 07-08 Pacers)
    These are just two possible scenarios. Why are thugs winners and no OTCI are losers? How about the other two?
    3. Thugs that won't win anything. We've approached this already. This is more likely than thugs who win IMO.
    4. No OTCI who are winners. But this cannot be achieved until we've cleared our roster of thugs or at least have our thugs in check.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: I have a serious question for PDers

    Quote Originally Posted by Robertmto View Post
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    well if u ask me, the current team has no chance to do anything
    O RLY?

    We've also discussed this topic many times post-brawl.

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    Member CableKC's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a serious question for PDers

    Quote Originally Posted by Robertmto View Post
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    well if u ask me, the current team has no chance to do anything
    Unfortunately, you didn't answer my question. If the milk drinkers can continue to improve over time and slowly build confidence, cchemistry and consistency and become competitive.... Then I will take the milk drinkers. But if you are saying that the only team that will ever win us a championship is the "bad apples" and that the "milk drinkers" will never improve nor get past the first round, then I ( obviously ) choose the "bad apples".

    But assuming that the "milk drinkers" can improve and slowly build the championship level team over time, then I choose the "milk drinkers". I want a team that I can be proud of, not the laughingstock of the league. If it means being patient and building the team the right way, then so be it.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    It is ka Thankee sai Major Cold's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a serious question for PDers

    I had no idea that DeShawn Stevenson was a sex offender. Or at least arrested for it.

    NBA is not for the faint of heart.

    Since when did Bird say that there is a no tolerance policy?

    OT: The Chief smokes the peace pipe.

  25. #25

    Default Re: I have a serious question for PDers

    whatever it takes to win a championship within the rules for me

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