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Thread: Ok, let's look at our options.....

  1. #26
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, let's look at our options.....

    Some of you are getting a little carried away. I can't get beyond trading Ron. I simply could not do that, so I can't advocate doing so.

    I suppose I better chime in here about Dampier. I don't want him. What is he going to do when J.O is getting the ball in the post. Can he shoot the 15 foot jumper? No, but then Foster can't either. But Dampier is a terrible passer, has terrible hands. He just clogs the middle for J.O and Ron. Well you say, Ok but on defense he and J.O will be great. Not really. Damp is slow, sure he is good against big post up players, and Damp can block shots, but he will change our system of defense. And how many big post up players will he need to guard. The three best teams in the east, Heat, Pistons, Nets, don't have anyone we need Damp

    Also do you want J.O guarding, Odom, Sheed, Kmart, or other similar quick power forwards who weill draw J.O out of the lane. I sure don't.

    I would be OK with Damp coming off he bench and playing 20 minutes per game.

  2. #27
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    Default Re: Ok, let's look at our options.....

    Not for the salary he commands you wouldn't.
    If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

  3. #28
    diego
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    Default Re: Ok, let's look at our options.....

    Some of you are getting a little carried away. I can't get beyond trading Ron. I simply could not do that, so I can't advocate doing so.

    I suppose I better chime in here about Dampier. I don't want him. What is he going to do when J.O is getting the ball in the post. Can he shoot the 15 foot jumper? No, but then Foster can't either. But Dampier is a terrible passer, has terrible hands. He just clogs the middle for J.O and Ron. Well you say, Ok but on defense he and J.O will be great. Not really. Damp is slow, sure he is good against big post up players, and Damp can block shots, but he will change our system of defense. And how many big post up players will he need to guard. The three best teams in the east, Heat, Pistons, Nets, don't have anyone we need Damp

    Also do you want J.O guarding, Odom, Sheed, Kmart, or other similar quick power forwards who weill draw J.O out of the lane. I sure don't.

    I would be OK with Damp coming off he bench and playing 20 minutes per game.


    UB,
    I respectfully disagree with you...but it seems we dont agree on much. LOL...anyways...one of the reasons we got beat by Detroit was Ben Wallace abused Foster and showed just how much stronger he was than Foster. Dampier would negate that strentgh factor, now Ben will still get his rebounds, that wont matter, but he can definitely body hiim up better than Foster.

    I dont garee he is way slow and a lane clogger. I have seen him play quite a few times and he is very athletic especially for his size. Now i iwll agree his hands arent the greatest...but... And on top of that we need another shot blocker that can intimadate people coming into lane. Foster intimadates nobody.

    The point im making isnt about Damp guarding those guys you mention, its about him keeping people from driving the lane so easily. How many shots at the rim did the Pistons get in that series that Dampier could affect.

    As far as guarding Odom, Rasheed, and Martin, we would still have Foster, and its not liek he would never play, but i like the idea of a bigger front line.

    One last point UB, in Dampier you would get the same rebounding if not better, more blocked shots, a bigger body, and better scoring from the center position. I guess i just dont see this as a bad thing.

    The funny thing is besides the 15 foot jumper many would say your description of Damp sounds liek Brad Miller, and him and JO seemed to play well together. And i think Damp can hit the 15 footer. JMO though.

  4. #29
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, let's look at our options.....

    UB,
    I respectfully disagree with you...but it seems we dont agree on much. LOL...anyways...one of the reasons we got beat by Detroit was Ben Wallace abused Foster and showed just how much stronger he was than Foster. Dampier would negate that strentgh factor, now Ben will still get his rebounds, that wont matter, but he can definitely body hiim up better than Foster.


    We agree on a lot of things, but I enjoy "discussing" stuff with you because I respect your opinion. Ben would use his quickness and blow right by Dampier for rebounds. Foster was taken out of the lineup not because ben ws abusing him, but because the Pacers needed 5 offensive players on the floor at all times.

    I dont garee he is way slow and a lane clogger. I have seen him play quite a few times and he is very athletic especially for his size. Now i iwll agree his hands arent the greatest...but... And on top of that we need another shot blocker that can intimadate people coming into lane. Foster intimadates nobody.


    The point im making isnt about Damp guarding those guys you mention, its about him keeping people from driving the lane so easily. How many shots at the rim did the Pistons get in that series that Dampier could affect.

    As far as guarding Odom, Rasheed, and Martin, we would still have Foster, and its not liek he would never play, but I like the idea of a bigger front line.

    One last point UB, in Dampier you would get the same rebounding if not better, more blocked shots, a bigger body, and better scoring from the center position. I guess i just dont see this as a bad thing.

    The funny thing is besides the 15 foot jumper many would say your description of Damp sounds liek Brad Miller, and him and JO seemed to play well together. And i think Damp can hit the 15 footer. JMO though.


    Brad has very good hands and is an excellent passer. As i said if Damp can be gotten cheaply and can come off the benhc, then i am all for it

  5. #30
    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, let's look at our options.....

    Again I will reiterate, Reggie will start again next year. Simply because DW is too loyal and all along they said Reggie will start as long as he plays. Unless Reggie says he doesnt want to, i expect him to be next years starter.

    That being said is the reason i think Dampier is the person we are going after. We need to get bigger up front. Dampier, JO, and Artest makes us one of the biggest and most talented frontcourts in not only the east but the league.

    I dont think we will get Richardson as he is their main scoring threat and they are looking for a PF that can combo with him. Al would give them a line up of Claxton, Richardson, Dunleavy, Al, Pollard/Foyle/someone. Not bad for them.

    Now as for the deal i would like to throw the idea of Al and Pollard for Dampier and Cheaney...then throw ins to make it work. I liek Cheaney and he is not the SG of the future but he provides a good player there for a coupel seasons while Reggie is still here. Cheaney is a career 46% shooter and 31% 3 point shooter which isnt great from behind arc, but he has a great mid range shot which is deadly. Which we dont have anyone on this team that has. He is 6'7" 217, so he can guard bigger guards and SFs without a big mismatch so Ron could cover a SG if needed and not lose much at the defensive SF spot.

    The pacers would then have Reggie playing 15 minutes a game and Cheaney and Freddie playing the other 33 minutes or so. This would allow Foster to play back up center which IMO is better as he is matched up against other teams backups and he can dominate inside ont he boards even more.

    So lineup is
    Tins
    Reggie
    Ron
    JO
    Damp

    Backups:
    AJ
    Cheaney/Freddie
    Bender/Cheaney
    Cro/Bender
    Foster/Primoz


    I like that lineup. I think we need to face the fact that Reggie is not retiring and he will remain starter another year but with much less minutes, more of a you deserve it type thing...much liek Mullin did when he played under Bird. If hes feeling it, maybe more, but if not, he comes out and lets others play. Then at end if you need a big shot, he is fresh and able to come in and finsih out a game. So since we are not going to get a TMAc or such, we need a shooter and Cheaney can fill that role.
    Exactly my thoughts, diego. Except that instead of acquiring Cheaney, we could additionally also throw in our MLE and 29th pick at Golden State or a 3rd party which might want to get involved to get a combo-guard a la Barry, resigned and all. I dont know if this is possible, but it would open op more trade scenarios and possibilities for our team.

    Regards,

    Mourning
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  6. #31
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    Default Re: Ok, let's look at our options.....

    I want to hear kerosene's "scouting report" on Dampier. I feel he'd know more than those of us in Indy.

  7. #32
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    Default Re: Ok, let's look at our options.....

    It really doesn't matter to me who we get long as it's a quality SG and he can help imedatiely , Center IMHO isn't a Priotrity..it's one of those things if you can get someone to help ...it's a bonus

  8. #33
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    Default Re: Ok, let's look at our options.....

    It really doesn't matter to me who we get long as it's a quality SG and he can help imedatiely , Center IMHO isn't a Priotrity..it's one of those things if you can get someone to help ...it's a bonus
    This is true.

  9. #34
    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, let's look at our options.....

    Yeah, but whats best isnt what always happens. Reggie starting might not be the best, but its still likely that is what will happen. Getting a high quality SG such as Richardson (just a name as an example) and than NOT starting him and than also somehow fitting in Fred into the rotation for some minutes, while we know he wont get many if any at PG (so, basically lets say 90% or more of the minutes he makes are likely to be at SG), means or better leads to, I think, atleast 2 disgruntled players at SG (the newly attracted SG and Fred Jones).

    I rather have us shore up our other weakeness which is size, so lets get that Center and either trade up in the draft for a good SG prospect (I, personally don't like that idea, I don't want to have experience on this team, no rookie errors in play-offs matches or extremely reduced minutes when it matters the most), for example by trading our own pick and Freddie

    OR trade Freddie together with our MLE (if that actually CAN be done, I dont know) for a very decent SG

    OR use the MLE to acquire a veteran/reliable SG for the short term. The type of player likely beginning on the way down, but still not bad at all.

    OR accept a back up SG/young SG from another team for the short term in the trade for the Center.

    This last option means IF that other SG develops better than foreseen we might have our Reggie-successor if not then only next year will a real quality SG be within reach as Reggie is likely to retire than.

    Just some thoughts.

    Regards,

    Mourning
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  10. #35
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, let's look at our options.....

    Okay.

    You have blown up our roster. We don't need that. We need to get a key piece or two...we don't need to rebuild

    I'm not sure that's really true. We need to re-balance, and that's harder to do. We've either got to look at multiple team trades or we've got to find a trading partner that also has a roster that is unbalanced in a complimentary way (i.e., needs SFs).
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  11. #36
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, let's look at our options.....

    I suppose I better chime in here about Dampier. I don't want him. What is he going to do when J.O is getting the ball in the post. Can he shoot the 15 foot jumper? No, but then Foster can't either. But Dampier is a terrible passer, has terrible hands. He just clogs the middle for J.O and Ron.
    Are you saying Foster clogs the middle? Othewise I don't see how you think that Dampier would clog the middle, he would be playing in the same offence and should go to the same spot or position on the floor as Foster would.

  12. #37

    Default Re: Ok, let's look at our options.....

    Wow, all those who are advocating trading for a center confound me. It makes me wonder if you saw game 4 against the Pistons where we absolutely demolished them because Cro's outside shot was on, thus allowing our big men to take it inside at will.

    We need a capable and consistent SG, plain and simple. Someone who can spread the floor and open up the interior. I'm not convinced if Reggie returns that he will automatically start. As DW said, his replacement isn't on the roster. Now, that may have have been a weaseling of words, but I take it to mean that they will be actively looking for that person outside of the team.

  13. #38
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, let's look at our options.....

    OR trade Freddie together with our MLE (if that actually CAN be done, I dont know) for a very decent SG
    Can't be done.

  14. #39
    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, let's look at our options.....

    I'm not convinced if Reggie returns that he will automatically start. As DW said, his replacement isn't on the roster.
    Well IF that were to be the case than I'm for getting that high quality SG too, but Reggie starting, keeping Freddie, acquiring that quality SG and playing Reggie more than 16-18 minutes is just asking for problems at SG IMO. Than it would be better to strengthen the interior and get more blocks and rebounds.

    Regards,

    Mourning
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  15. #40
    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, let's look at our options.....

    OR trade Freddie together with our MLE (if that actually CAN be done, I dont know) for a very decent SG
    Can't be done.
    Yeah, I already was afraid of that . Thx for clearing up .

    Regards,

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  16. #41
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    Default Re: Ok, let's look at our options.....

    Wow, all those who are advocating trading for a center confound me. It makes me wonder if you saw game 4 against the Pistons where we absolutely demolished them because Cro's outside shot was on, thus allowing our big men to take it inside at will.

    We need a capable and consistent SG, plain and simple. Someone who can spread the floor and open up the interior. I'm not convinced if Reggie returns that he will automatically start. As DW said, his replacement isn't on the roster. Now, that may have have been a weaseling of words, but I take it to mean that they will be actively looking for that person outside of the team.
    You think your confounded, try being me.

    You know who I'm about to bring up. Let me re-state what I said before, if we are looking for a new starting center within that 7 year time frame than that trade was a horrid horrid thing.

    Now before people blast me, let me state this. I am not advocating getting a new starting center.

    Like Bulletproof the need for a shooting guard is just screaming.

    I can't beleive you guys want Dampier. Have you seen the guy play? His knees are so bad they make my knees hurt. He runs like a turtle.

    Let's also not forget that he was entering a contract year last year, what has he done before that?

    I guess if that's the best we can come up with, ok I guess. But that still doesn't answer the outside shooting question.

    Brad Miller sure would have filled the bill though wouldn't he?

    This is where I have to wonder if there wasn't some kind of off court trouble that I didn't know about because Donnie, for all of his faults that I have pointed out over the years is not dumb.

    There had to be more to this, because Brad & J.O. were just to perfect of a match.


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  17. #42
    ENABEABLER MagicRat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, let's look at our options.....

    Didn't Larry and Donnie already trade Dampier once because they thought he was lazy? Or am I mis-remembering?......
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  18. #43
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, let's look at our options.....

    Didn't Larry and Donnie already trade Dampier once because they thought he was lazy? Or am I mis-remembering?......
    That be correct

  19. #44
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    Default Re: Ok, let's look at our options.....

    I guess I remember that Larry and DW really wanted Mulllin at about any cost, and after much stalling, finally gave into GS's demand of Dampier, which allowed us to also dump Duanne Ferrell ( ) on them.
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  20. #45
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    Default Re: Ok, let's look at our options.....

    I want Slava Medvedenko at C...
    Here, everyone have a : on me

  21. #46
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    Default Re: Ok, let's look at our options.....

    Peck’s offerings look at different ways to improve the lineup. One uses existing players; the two others deal with acquiring a mid- or upper-level SG by trading Al and Ron, respectively. But basically, the choices deal with improving upon our major weakness – perimeter shooting.

    Option #1 – JO, Al, Ron, Tinsley, Freddie

    Good: Presuming additional growth from Freddie, I think this lineup is great for brief stretches during games. Particularly against a small opposing lineup or to mix things up when a larger lineup we are playing just isn’t producing.

    Bad: This choice removes our best player from his natural and best position (PF) and puts him at C. For reasons mentioned over and over, this may not be a good thing. But worse yet, this choice implies no roster change. We may have beaten the Pistons by the mere addition of a better shooting SG, but by also adding another big I think it would have been a near certainty. Get us an SG and a big, and unless Detroit improves their roster, we go to the finals, unless Miami gets a decent center. But that’s another story.

    Option #2 – Jeff, JO, Ron, Tinsley, new mid-level SG

    Good (or at least acceptable): This option acknowledges the perimeter shooting woes that we suffered in the ECS, and goes outside the team to fix it. It sacrifices Al for a mid-level SG, presumably one that can hit perimeter shots. IMO, this is a workable solution and although it weakens our bench, it improves our starting lineup and our team by providing an established perimeter scoring threat.

    Bad: I’d have to see the SG acquired. I worry about a fair exchange if Al is used to acquire a “mid-level” guard. But to improve, I’ll concede that sacrifices must be made.

    Option #3 – Jeff, JO, Al, Tinsley, star-SG

    Good: Same reasons as option #2, except Ron is sacrificed. If Ron is an unbearably bad influence as bulletproof states, then this solution is a win-win for the franchise.

    Bad: The cornerstone of our defense is sacrificed. If Ron is a bad influence, yet fixable or bearable, then we’ve sacrificed the best defender in the league to fix a problem that might have been fixable by acquiring a lesser player. A second problem for me is that it puts Al at SF for huge minutes. I believe Al’s skills to be much more advantageous at PF than at SF, where he is able to post smaller players, but struggles with perimeter defense.

    Conclusion: My choices –
    1. New option #4 – offer Al and any combination of Bender, Pollard, Croshere, Brezec for a better SG, or a better SG and a big and whatever crap we get back as filler. I probably wouldn’t pull the plug on Ron, not this year. I really don’t want to change my user name.
    2. Option #2 – Sacrifice Al for a mid-level or better SG.

    MAJOR NOTE:
    The one thing that has not been mentioned is AJ’s status and how that could affect what we want to do in addressing needs at SG and getting a big. If AJ opts out and leaves, then finding a backup PG becomes just as important to fill as SG. In that event, we may not ever get around to getting the big that we need.

    Needs:
    1. Re-sign AJ.
    2. If AJ not re-signed, then get a backup PG.
    3. SG.
    4. Big.

  22. #47
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    Default Re: Ok, let's look at our options.....

    Wow, all those who are advocating trading for a center confound me. It makes me wonder if you saw game 4 against the Pistons where we absolutely demolished them because Cro's outside shot was on, thus allowing our big men to take it inside at will.

    We need a capable and consistent SG, plain and simple. Someone who can spread the floor and open up the interior. I'm not convinced if Reggie returns that he will automatically start. As DW said, his replacement isn't on the roster. Now, that may have have been a weaseling of words, but I take it to mean that they will be actively looking for that person outside of the team.
    True.

    BP, I would look at it this way. If we had a perimeter shooting SG against Detroit, then there is a good chance we would be in the finals. If we had that same SG AND another big, I know damn well we would be in the finals.

    One thing we cannot do is stand pat. Doing so totally relies on any improvement Freddie can make, and ignores the fact that Detroit will probably also improve. And, what if Miami acquires a decent center?

    But has anyone asked themselves what do we do if AJ leaves? That may throw a monkey wrench into other plans that Larry and Donny have because suddenly they have to divert their attention to finding a backup PG.

    For what it's worth, that still makes me think of Brent Barry. He can play both spots, and would be a great stop gap for 2 or 3 years.

  23. #48
    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, let's look at our options.....

    Didn't Larry and Donnie already trade Dampier once because they thought he was lazy? Or am I mis-remembering?......
    Could that also mean forgetting
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  24. #49

    Default Re: Ok, let's look at our options.....

    Good: Same reasons as option #2, except Ron is sacrificed. If Ron is an unbearably bad influence as bulletproof states, then this solution is a win-win for the franchise.
    Just to set the record straight, I never said Ron was a bad influence.

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    Default Re: Ok, let's look at our options.....

    Good: Same reasons as option #2, except Ron is sacrificed. If Ron is an unbearably bad influence as bulletproof states, then this solution is a win-win for the franchise.
    Just to set the record straight, I never said Ron was a bad influence.
    My apologies. I believe either you said or it had been reported that you said that there was more going on with Ron than just what we see on the surface.

    From that I apparently inferred more than is the case.

    My handle alone says that I like Artest. He is probably my favorite player right now. But it doesn't take a genius so realize that Ron is pretty high maintenance. Another thing that I think hurts Ron is that he is not particularly well spoken, and his choice of words, taken in context, can really make him look bad.

    I'm a lot like Buck when it comes to Artest. I would hate to see him sacrificed to enable us to plug the hole at SG. I'd rather it be Al. In fact, I'd rather it be Al AND Bender to get a really decent guard rather than seeing Ron and Freddie, for example, sacrificed to bring back a good SG.

    But on the other hand, if the other things going on with Ron are really pushing the threshhold for lack of better words, then I guess I'd seek a solution involving Ron to hlep avoid future drama and to resolve the pressing need.

    But at any rate, sorry if I misinterpretted or used a poor choice of words.

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