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Thread: Reggie Miller vs. Ray Allen

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    Default Reggie Miller vs. Ray Allen

    Reggie finished with 2,560 3 pointers.

    Ray Allen now has 2,100, just 460 behind.

    This past season Allen nailed 180. Two more years like the last one & he's going to be just 100 away. That means in about 2 & a half seasons, Allen could be the 3 point leader.

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller vs. Ray Allen

    I would still rather have a Reggie in his prime than I would a Ray Allen in his prime. Allen, outside of this year, has been on terrible teams and was able to really pad his stats.

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller vs. Ray Allen

    Quote Originally Posted by HeartlandFan View Post
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    I would still rather have a Reggie in his prime than I would a Ray Allen in his prime. Allen, outside of this year, has been on terrible teams and was able to really pad his stats.
    Ray does a lot of stuff Reggie never did.

    He's not the playoff performer Reggie was, but if we'd had him instead of Reggie we'd have won more games in the regular season.

    He can do a lot more when his shot's not falling.
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    Default Re: Reggie Miller vs. Ray Allen

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Ray does a lot of stuff Reggie never did.

    He's not the playoff performer Reggie was, but if we'd had him instead of Reggie we'd have won more games in the regular season.

    He can do a lot more when his shot's not falling.

    That could be true. I feel like Reggie was a better leader than Allen is though which in my opinion makes up for some of his other deficiencies. Even if his shots weren't falling, you could always count on Reg to be the coach on the court. Regardless, I personally would sacrifice a couple wins a year if I was guaranteed the clutch performances that we got out of Reggie over the years.

    If Allen does end up passing Reggie, who would everyone consider the better shooter of the two? Both shoot about the same 3pt % for their careers. Allen has just shot a much higher volume while Reggie was more effective getting to the line and hitting free throws at a 90% clip.

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller vs. Ray Allen

    I think Ray Allen is generally at the same level talent-wise, but he definitely padded his stats by calling his own number the last few years in lowly Seattle after getting pushed out of Milwaukee by Michael Redd.

    At Seattle there are the 2 seasons that peak his 3pt attempts...all 5 seasons peaked his ppg total...and only one season above .500 and one trip to the playoffs in 5 years...One season the Sonics were under .500 he had 653 attempts compared to a max of 528 by Miller....that's generally padding IMO.

    The year the Sonics went to the second round and actually competed, his shooting percentages were noticeably down. I guess that's what happens when someone starts defending you...

    ...and I think the matchup we had with the Bucks in 99 and '00 made some people overrate Allen. Allen was a 25 year old SG and Miller was 35 a couple years past his prime. It would be interesting to see them in competition on level ground.

    Again, I'm not saying there's a big difference here....only pointing out they went entirely different routes. If Miller had a really good team like Allen did at the age of 24, the Pacers may have a championship.

    In any event, the only significant difference is what Reggie brings during the playoffs in terms of clutch play...I guess the proof might be that the Pacers actually played in the NBA finals during Reggie's tenure.

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller vs. Ray Allen

    Well, the better or best shooter debate has to be qualified. Obviously, if you're talking number of threes it's whoever of those two ends up with most. At least for the short term.

    Best pure shooter though could be quite subjective and pull in many more names. Dale Ellis, Dell Curry, Larry Bird and many more that escape me on short notice.
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    Default Re: Reggie Miller vs. Ray Allen

    For those counting, Reggie led the Pacers to 15 years of post season play only missing one year during his last 16 years....and scored 27 pts his last game at the age of 40.

    There's a reason he has a reputation. I could be wrong, but I don't see Mr. Allen making that kind of impact.

    ...and yes, I am very biased....;<)

  8. #8

    Default Re: Reggie Miller vs. Ray Allen

    An oldish Reggie outplayed Ray in the 2000 series. I don't think there's a lot of question regarding the more esteemed player. George Karl himself thought the world of Reggie.

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller vs. Ray Allen

    In the end, the one who ends up with the most 3 pointers made will be # 1...you cannot argue with that.

    If Allen does pass Reggie, then it will be a true accomplishment.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Reggie Miller vs. Ray Allen

    Savants,

    Interesting debate, and I can see both sides of it. In reference to the statement that Reggie outplayed Allen in 2000, here are the numbers:

    Miller
    24.2 PPG, 46% FG (28% 3-pt FG), 2.4 RPG, 2.2 APG

    Allen
    22.0 PPG, 44% FG, 39% 3-pt FG, 6.6 RPG , 2.6 APG

    That, to me, is essentially a wash. That was a splendid series, and I remember both players being stellar over the course of the five games. In the big picture, I would give Allen a slight edge as an overall player, but he still has a long way to go to establish himself as the clutch player Reggie was.

    MJB

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller vs. Ray Allen

    Quote Originally Posted by mboyle1313 View Post
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    Savants,

    Interesting debate, and I can see both sides of it. In reference to the statement that Reggie outplayed Allen in 2000, here are the numbers:

    Miller
    24.2 PPG, 46% FG (28% 3-pt FG), 2.4 RPG, 2.2 APG

    Allen
    22.0 PPG, 44% FG, 39% 3-pt FG, 6.6 RPG , 2.6 APG

    That, to me, is essentially a wash. That was a splendid series, and I remember both players being stellar over the course of the five games. In the big picture, I would give Allen a slight edge as an overall player, but he still has a long way to go to establish himself as the clutch player Reggie was.

    MJB
    Not to mention that Allen was still a young buck back then (no pun intended), while Reggie was the seasoned vet who had been in that position many times before. Wasn't that just Allen's second playoff series in his career? (the first being in 99 against us?).

    And for those who complain that Allen's stats are skewed because he ran up his stats on bad teams, what do you call Reggie's early years? Reggie averaged the most points in his career on bad Pacer teams, while his PPG averages were usually shy of 20 on the teams that went far. It's the same case with both player.

    If Allen gets the record, I don't think there's a debate.

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller vs. Ray Allen

    Jose - I think that that 3 point record was made to be broken. If not Ray, then someone else would have gotten it. It was Chuck Person's for a while. The three point shot is too new (relatively speaking) in the game of basketball for that record to have stood for long. Maybe I'm wrong - we'll see in another 20 years where Reggie is on that list. I would think he'll drop a few slots, maybe anywhere from 1-3 spots down.

    Mark - long time no see! Been busy? Any interesting road trips to tell us about?
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    Default Re: Reggie Miller vs. Ray Allen

    I would give the edge for best all-around player to Allen because of what else he can do with the ball. Reggie's leadership was outstanding, but he was pretty one-dimensional, although he could slash a bit and get to the foul line. Reggie moves better without the ball and around screens, but Allen is clearly the better all-around player to me.

    Best 3-pt. shooter isn't necessarily all Reggie either. He was great in the clutch, but so were/are a lot of players. For my money, if I have a Game 7, seven seconds to go, and down by two, I want Larry Bird taking that shot, with Reggie second, and MJ third...Maybe Big Shot Bob thrown in at fourth.....

    Reggie is still my favorite player of all time, just because he's Reggie.



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    Default Re: Reggie Miller vs. Ray Allen

    Quote Originally Posted by mboyle1313 View Post
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    Savants,

    Interesting debate, and I can see both sides of it. In reference to the statement that Reggie outplayed Allen in 2000, here are the numbers:

    Miller
    24.2 PPG, 46% FG (28% 3-pt FG), 2.4 RPG, 2.2 APG

    Allen
    22.0 PPG, 44% FG, 39% 3-pt FG, 6.6 RPG , 2.6 APG

    That, to me, is essentially a wash. That was a splendid series, and I remember both players being stellar over the course of the five games. In the big picture, I would give Allen a slight edge as an overall player, but he still has a long way to go to establish himself as the clutch player Reggie was.

    MJB

    All excellent points. Ray can create off the dribble much better than Reggie ever could.

    But I think Reggie had a much greater impact on that series than did Ray Allen. Reggie carried the Pacers to wins in games 3 and games 5. Virtually taking over both games in the second halves. Reggie's scoring average is a little skewed due to two poor games in which the Pacers got blown out.

    OK- I just looked it up and my memory is better than I thought it was.

    Game 1 Reggie scored 21 - Pacers win
    Game 2 Reggie scores 10 - Pacers get blown out
    Game 3 Reggie scores 34 - pacers win on the road
    Game 4 Reggie scores 15 - pacers get blown out
    Game 5 Reggie scores 41 - pacers win
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 04-28-2008 at 12:06 PM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Reggie Miller vs. Ray Allen

    Kaufman,

    No exotic trips, though I'll take several short jaunts to kibitz with some of my baseball cronies.

    Another thought occurs to me as an offshoot of the Reggie discussion. Is Reggie a Hall of Famer? It seems likely to me, though I base that almost solely on the strength of his clutch play in the post season environment. His regular season numbers, while impressive, are not (in my view) HOF worthy, with the notable exception of his 3-point total.

    This really, to a degree, is an extension of my belief that the Hall of Fame already has too many folks in it and, as a result, is really the Hall of Really Good. That said, I would readily acknowledge that my definition of great is probably far less inclusive than that of the average fan.

    MJB

  16. #16

    Default Re: Reggie Miller vs. Ray Allen

    Buck,

    While your memory of the flow of that series is accurate, it should be noted that Reggie played a total of 64 minutes in the two blowout losses while Allen played a total of 67.

    In other words, if Reggie's numbers are skewed, so are Ray's.

    MJB

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller vs. Ray Allen

    Reggie Miller did a great job acting in the television show Hanging w/ Mr Cooper. Ray Allen was not a good actor in He Got Game, in fact Travis Best was better. I am giving this debate to REGGIE!

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller vs. Ray Allen

    Quote Originally Posted by mboyle1313 View Post
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    Kaufman,

    No exotic trips, though I'll take several short jaunts to kibitz with some of my baseball cronies.

    Another thought occurs to me as an offshoot of the Reggie discussion. Is Reggie a Hall of Famer? It seems likely to me, though I base that almost solely on the strength of his clutch play in the post season environment. His regular season numbers, while impressive, are not (in my view) HOF worthy, with the notable exception of his 3-point total.

    This really, to a degree, is an extension of my belief that the Hall of Fame already has too many folks in it and, as a result, is really the Hall of Really Good. That said, I would readily acknowledge that my definition of great is probably far less inclusive than that of the average fan.

    MJB
    Mr Boyle,

    You're going to have a difficult time convincing anyone within these walls that there should even be a debate.

    Does the Hall include too many players? Perhaps. But the standard has been set, and narrowing the standard would be a mistake.

    If the hall was called the "Hall of Statistics" then Reggie would be only one of many "very good" shooting guards just from his era. There's little to distinguish him from the pack.

    Thankfully, it is not the "Hall of Statistics", it is the Hall of FAME.

    I had one of those "Oh crap I'm surrounded by Lakers fans" conversations at Rick's Tavern in Santa Monica. This crowd was a bit older and scholarly and as the conversation went on, they could tell that I knew a bit about basketball. Inevitably, one of the guys asked me who "my team" was.

    "Pacers," I said.

    The response of one of the guys was remarkable. "Reggie Miller. One of the all-time greats. You were lucky to have so many great memories with that guy. I'm not even a fan, and his moments were some of my favorites all time." And that was that. Reggie miller, brought to you by an average guy wearing purple and gold.

    Many memories fade, but reggie's memories for some reason stick not just with Indiana fans but with fans of the league as a whole.

    Statistically, Reggie was merely "very good". However, as far as true fame goes, his legend is what matters here. Reggie is a Hall of Famer.
    Last edited by Los Angeles; 04-28-2008 at 03:35 PM.
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    Default Re: Reggie Miller vs. Ray Allen

    Beautiful.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Reggie Miller vs. Ray Allen

    Los Angeles,

    No argument here. As you'll note in my previous post, I consider it likely that he'll wind up in the HOF. I was just curious as to what others thought.

    MJB

  21. #21

    Default Re: Reggie Miller vs. Ray Allen

    If Ray breaks the record, I think that's all well and fair, honestly.

    Reggie was a 20 point per game scorer, but he never jacked up many shots, or forced anything. I think he could have pushed 25 ppg, or more if he would have been so inclined to really be one of the NBA's top scorers regularly.

    As an example, in 18 years with only missing significant time in one season where he played 50 games, he took 6486 3's. On Allens side, in 12 seasons, and missing significant time in 3 or 4 seasons, he has taken 5,290 3's.

    Or we can look at it this way ....

    Allen - 5,290 3's in 863 games

    Reggie - 6,486 3's in 1,389 games.

    Clearly Ray jacks them up more often, and this isn't a knock on him, because he shoots roughly the same percentage as Reggie, but it says more about one of two things .... Reggie's inability to create his own shot, or his willingness to pass the ball. Either way, Ray will have earned it fairly, and I will be fine with it. I think it just shows how unselfish and team oriented Reggie was, personally.


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    Default Re: Reggie Miller vs. Ray Allen

    Quote Originally Posted by mboyle1313 View Post
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    Savants,
    I love it.
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    Default Re: Reggie Miller vs. Ray Allen

    Ray Allen Career 3's: 2100-5291 .397

    Reggie Miller Career 3's: 2560-6486 .395

    Ya, sadly Allen is better shooter than Miller.. I wish Miller could always be remembered as the best sharpshooter. Ever. But it's not going to happen.

    That being said. There is still no way in hell I pick Allen over Miller.

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller vs. Ray Allen

    Quote Originally Posted by Ownagedood View Post
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    Ray Allen Career 3's: 2100-5291 .397

    Reggie Miller Career 3's: 2560-6486 .395

    Ya, sadly Allen is better shooter than Miller.. I wish Miller could always be remembered as the best sharpshooter. Ever. But it's not going to happen.

    That being said. There is still no way in hell I pick Allen over Miller.
    By .2 of a percent, c'mon. Allen could miss like three threes in a row and then Reggie would be the better shooter.

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller vs. Ray Allen

    Quote Originally Posted by dcpacersfan View Post
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    By .2 of a percent, c'mon. Allen could miss like three threes in a row and then Reggie would be the better shooter.
    Actually, Ray could miss his next 25 in a row and still have a better percentage.

    But I agree that it's not significant for that volume.
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