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Thread: Important question for all non-Pacers fans

  1. #1
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Important question for all non-Pacers fans

    I really want to know what you non-Pacer fans think, I know many have left us after the Pistons series, but I want to know what a fan of other teams think.

    Let's assume the Pacers trade Artest for a starting shooting guard of the caliber of Ray Allen, would the Pacers be easier to beat with the following starting 5, vs their current starting 5.

    Tinsley
    Allen
    Harrington
    J.O
    Foster.

    Of course I am not taking into account that maybe AL could be traded and the pacers could get quality shooting guard, maybe someone of Kerry Kittles quality, so if you want to address that also, please go ahead.

    I want an unbiased view.

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    Rebound King Kstat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Important question for all non-Pacers fans

    I feel a lot better with Harrington at SF instead of Artest. Without Ron the Pacers have NOBODY to follow Rip through picks.

    Hamilton is still better than Ray Allen at this point in their careers. He'll score and space the floor, sure, but Rip will run him ragged all over the court like he does to everyone else.

    I think that team wins 60+ games again, but it matches up VERY poorly with the Pistons defensively.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Important question for all non-Pacers fans

    With such a good bench there really is no reason to lose a starter to get a starter. I'm not the biggest Artest fan but losing him hurts the defense more than Allen helps the offense and makes this team a lot less tough minded.

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    Default Re: Important question for all non-Pacers fans

    I think that team would win as many, and possibly more, regular season games than the Pacers w/Artest but wouldn't be as likely to be successful in the playoffs.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

  5. #5
    sweabs
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    Default Re: Important question for all non-Pacers fans

    Jermaine NNNNNNNNNNNNNEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDDSSSSSSSSSS
    an outside threat to open up the middle.
    You can still get an outside threat that opens up the middle without giving Ron away.

    It seems like a lot of people here are under the notion that this new SG has to be a T-Mac, Ray Allen, <insert unrealistic name here>, but I think a guy like Voshon Lenard would do the job nicely.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Important question for all non-Pacers fans

    Jermaine NNNNNNNNNNNNNEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDDSSSSSSSSSS
    an outside threat to open up the middle.
    You can still get an outside threat that opens up the middle without giving Ron away.

    It seems like a lot of people here are under the notion that this new SG has to be a T-Mac, Ray Allen, <insert unrealistic name here>, but I think a guy like Voshon Lenard would do the job nicely.
    Everyone REALLY seems to undervaluing Ron here. I can't believe people take for granted what he does. I assure you, if Ron is not here, the defense gets MUCH, MUCH worse.
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

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    Rebound King Kstat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Important question for all non-Pacers fans

    Disagree TOTALLY. Allen helps this offense WAYYYYYYYYY more than losing Artest on D
    You're kidding....right?

    A REAL star shooter means they can't double down on Jermaine and Al. We kill in the paint or Allen shoots open jumpers.
    Congratulations...You'll become the Lakers on offense......and defense.....

    Meanwhile we still have Fred Jones to play awesome D on 2's
    Awesome D? I mean the guy has some offense, but AWESOME D? Were you watching the same Fred Jones in the ECF I was? The man was getting posted up by RIP HAMILTON

    and AL to play on 3's. Give Al the start with the understanding that D stopper is his role and we'd see the return of Al the monster on defense
    I don't theink the words " Al HArrington" and "Defensive stopper" have ever been used in the same sentence, without the words "is not" in between.

    Tell you what, you hand Ron's defensive assignments Ron with AL and Freddie, and you'll learn JUST how much he did for this team.....

    If losing Ron costs us 25% of our "effectiveness" on defense, then adding Allen or Tmac would have to be close to a 50% improvement on offense.
    .....so by your logic, you'll give up close to 100ppg and score 105? And this is a GOOD thing?

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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  8. #8
    sweabs
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    Default Re: Important question for all non-Pacers fans

    Jermaine NNNNNNNNNNNNNEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDDSSSSSSSSSS
    an outside threat to open up the middle.
    You can still get an outside threat that opens up the middle without giving Ron away.

    It seems like a lot of people here are under the notion that this new SG has to be a T-Mac, Ray Allen, <insert unrealistic name here>, but I think a guy like Voshon Lenard would do the job nicely.
    Everyone REALLY seems to undervaluing Ron here. I can't believe people take for granted what he does. I assure you, if Ron is not here, the defense gets MUCH, MUCH worse.
    I wasn't undervaluing him . I think we need to keep Ron if we are to compete at a high level. As Detroit is proving now: defense wins championships.

  9. #9
    sweabs
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    Default Re: Important question for all non-Pacers fans

    Yes, Lenard starts.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Important question for all non-Pacers fans

    Jermaine NNNNNNNNNNNNNEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDDSSSSSSSSSS
    an outside threat to open up the middle.
    You can still get an outside threat that opens up the middle without giving Ron away.

    It seems like a lot of people here are under the notion that this new SG has to be a T-Mac, Ray Allen, <insert unrealistic name here>, but I think a guy like Voshon Lenard would do the job nicely.
    Everyone REALLY seems to undervaluing Ron here. I can't believe people take for granted what he does. I assure you, if Ron is not here, the defense gets MUCH, MUCH worse.
    I wasn't undervaluing him . I think we need to keep Ron if we are to compete at a high level. As Detroit is proving now: defense wins championships.
    Lol...I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was agreeing with what you said. Indeed, Defense wins.
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Important question for all non-Pacers fans

    Disagree TOTALLY. Allen helps this offense WAYYYYYYYYY more than losing Artest on D
    You're kidding....right?

    A REAL star shooter means they can't double down on Jermaine and Al. We kill in the paint or Allen shoots open jumpers.
    Congratulations...You'll become the Lakers on offense......and defense.....

    Meanwhile we still have Fred Jones to play awesome D on 2's
    Awesome D? I mean the guy has some offense, but AWESOME D? Were you watching the same Fred Jones in the ECF I was? The man was getting posted up by RIP HAMILTON

    and AL to play on 3's. Give Al the start with the understanding that D stopper is his role and we'd see the return of Al the monster on defense
    I don't theink the words " Al HArrington" and "Defensive stopper" have ever been used in the same sentence, without the words "is not" in between.

    Tell you what, you hand Ron's defensive assignments Ron with AL and Freddie, and you'll learn JUST how much he did for this team.....

    If losing Ron costs us 25% of our "effectiveness" on defense, then adding Allen or Tmac would have to be close to a 50% improvement on offense.
    .....so by your logic, you'll give up close to 100ppg and score 105? And this is a GOOD thing?
    Kstat, is someone else posting under your name?

    I've heard you say that Ron can't follow Rip around screens because he is too big. Now he is the only one?

    I've heard you say that Rip is decptivly good at posting up now it is a slight on a 6'4 guard when Rip does this?

    Freddy an offensive player with no D. You've been in the forum long enough that no one would catagorize his game like that.

    Al was our defensive stopper before Ron got here so yes those words have been used together.

    It's fine if you think that the team needs Ron. In fact, I agree but this forum is saying 2 plus 2 is 3 just to prove that point.
    "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

    "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

  12. #12
    Offical Thread Killer TheSauceMaster's Avatar
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    Default Re: Important question for all non-Pacers fans

    If losing Ron costs us 25% of our "effectiveness" on defense, then adding Allen or Tmac would have to be close to a 50% improvement on offense.
    Sounds like the Mark Cuban Mavs theroy to me , and how far have they gotten with that again ?

  13. #13

    Default Re: Important question for all non-Pacers fans

    If losing Ron costs us 25% of our "effectiveness" on defense, then adding Allen or Tmac would have to be close to a 50% improvement on offense.
    Sounds like the Mark Cuban Mavs theroy to me , and how far have they gotten with that again ?

    Nowheres
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

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    Rebound King Kstat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Important question for all non-Pacers fans

    Kstat, is someone else posting under your name?

    I've heard you say that Ron can't follow Rip around screens because he is too big. Now he is the only one?
    Well last time I checked, Ron was the only Pacer that came REMOTELY close to staying with Rip. At least he made rip work for 3 quarters in game 6 before his legs finally gave out and Rip got good looks.

    I've heard you say that Rip is decptivly good at posting up now it is a slight on a 6'4 guard when Rip does this?
    I've NEVER said that. Rip is good at posting up SMALLER GUARDS. I've seen Rip go at three SGs in the post in the last 2 years: Allen Iverson, Jason Terry, and Freddie Jones. When he posts up someone even CLOSE to his own size, I've got a nice vurtual cookie for you.

    Freddy an offensive player with no D. You've been in the forum long enough that no one would catagorize his game like that.
    No, the original word was AWESOME D. I never said he had NO D, but saying that Freddie can defend like Ron does in an insult. He made it seem like ANYONE could take Ron's assignments every night.

    Al was our defensive stopper before Ron got here so yes those words have been used together.
    As I recall, the Pacers couldn't stop anybody before Ron got there. AL being the best defender of the group isn't saying much.

    It's fine if you think that the team needs Ron. In fact, I agree but this forum is saying 2 plus 2 is 3 just to prove that point.
    This reminds me of the "we should trade Ben Wallace for a decent defender that can score a lot" discussions 2 years ago on the pistons forum.

    I can't make this clear enough: Ron Artest has a SPECIAL talent for Defense, as Ben Wallace does. You cannot replace that no matter how many GOOD defenders you aquire. Its like replacing a 30ppg scorer with two 15ppg scorers.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Member Ant's Avatar
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    Default Re: Important question for all non-Pacers fans


    I assure you, if Ron is not here, the defense gets MUCH, MUCH worse.

    Exactly, we have to find a way to solve the offenses problem without getting rid of the frickin defensive player of the year.

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  16. #16
    wallaceX2
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    Default Re: Important question for all non-Pacers fans

    The deal would only work out good for Indiana if this really helps them score more points; they'll need the extra points without Artest on D. And to do that, you need more than one guy (Ray Allen). If an Artest trade like that goes through, it would be stupid not to try and pickup more offensive free agents or work out more trades benefitting the Pacers.

    s:

  17. #17

    Default Re: Important question for all non-Pacers fans

    Kstat- completely agree on Al H., his defense is not that good and is mistakenly over-rated. I see him get burned time and time again.

    Like someone recently said, we need to boost the offense a little bit without losing the defensive player of the year.

    Would Detroit get rid of Ben Wallace because he has flaws in his offensive game??? I sure as hell would NOT!! Ben missed some point blank shots in game 6 and no one is calling for his head.

    Defense is HUGE in this league and tenacious defenders with a bonus of offensive skills is virtually unheard of in the NBA.

    We'd have to get a monster deal in exchange for the defensive player of the year that included a master defender, because there isn't anyone else on the current Pacers roster anywhere near Ron's defensive ability.

    Water

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    Default Re: Important question for all non-Pacers fans

    Why would you want ANOTHER franchise player? (Ray Allen, isn't one by the way, he's like Redd a productive substitute for a franchise player) Last I looked J.O was Indy's franchise.

    Indy needs an outside shooter. One guy who can consistently knock down open to semi-contested shots from outside the 14-16 foot range. Its ridiculous to break-up your whole team concept for that one person.

    Don't forget who coaches the Pacers. Rick, call a play on every possession, never run the ball up court unless you have an obvious advantage, take time off the clock even in the first quarter, Carlisle. The Pacers are NEVER going to average 100 pts/game even with T-Mac AND Allen. (This is not a slight, its simply a fact about the Pacer's style of play.)

    Leave the superstar sweepstakes to teams with no hope next year if they don't get a superstar. Go get someone like Carl English or Joseph Forte, a young Glen Rice type.

  19. #19
    sweabs
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    Default Re: Important question for all non-Pacers fans

    Indy needs an outside shooter. One guy who can consistently knock down open to semi-contested shots from outside the 14-16 foot range.
    I think Reggie can still do this if he would be willing to actually take shots!

  20. #20
    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Important question for all non-Pacers fans

    I can't make this clear enough: Ron Artest has a SPECIAL talent for Defense, as Ben Wallace does. You cannot replace that no matter how many GOOD defenders you aquire. Its like replacing a 30ppg scorer with two 15ppg scorers.
    very good analogy. ron is special. it would take a special trade to pry him away.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Important question for all non-Pacers fans

    I really want to know what you non-Pacer fans think, I know many have left us after the Pistons series, but I want to know what a fan of other teams think.

    Let's assume the Pacers trade Artest for a starting shooting guard of the caliber of Ray Allen, would the Pacers be easier to beat with the following starting 5, vs their current starting 5.

    Tinsley
    Allen
    Harrington
    J.O
    Foster.
    Yes you guys would then be easier to beat IMO.

    First off you would be forcing Harrington into the starters role; he may blossom in that role but he could equally show that he is better suited as a 6th man. There have been many players over the years who are at their best playing against 2nd units as 6th men; Aaron McKie is a perfect example when he is forced to start the 1st couple games he can look great but over the long run he starts to struggle and you find out why he is best suited as a 6th man I think Harrington's best role is coming off the bench and if he was relied on to start 82 games he would transgress and not be as productive as he is in his current role. Also you would be weakening your 2nd unit considerably by starting him.

    Second, losing Artest you would lose championship quality intangibles that I saw him bring to your team this season. The grit and the ability to take the challenge of defending the stud scorers of the other team; who would fill the void as your "defensive stopper" with Artest gone? The first time Pierce dropped 45 or TMac dropped 50 against the Pacers you would be praying you had Artest back in there. You simply can't lose your best defensive player and expect to stay at the same level as a team trust me I know when we lossed our best defensive player in Ratliff the defense really suffered and you wouldn't just be able to throw anybody in there to replace Artest.

    Third, the Pacers have great chemistry, by moving Artest your taking out a huge part of that chemistry and you just don't know if Allen will fit in as nicely and whether the chemistry would click. Just my opinion but if I'm the Pacers I don't pull a Larry Brown this offseason and change key ingredients like Artest I would just slightly tweak the roster by adding a more productive starting two guard unless you get an offer you can't refuse like Harrington for Ray Allen etc.,, But to me Artest and JO would be untouchable unless your getting an elite superstar like McGrady in return. So I think you would be easier to beat, your defense would be weaker, your bench would be weaker, you would lose mental toughness, your offense would probably be slightly better unless Harrington struggled then it would be about the same.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Important question for all non-Pacers fans

    Third, the Pacers have great chemistry, by moving Artest your taking out a huge part of that chemistry and you just don't know if Allen will fit in as nicely and whether the chemistry would click.
    Interesting that the out-of-town perspective is that the chemistry is good; because its something that has been in the back of my head all season. Chemistry was clearly bad the previous season, and winning certainly masked those problems this season. But I'm not yet convinced that we truly have great chemistry.
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  23. #23
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Important question for all non-Pacers fans

    Yes you guys would then be easier to beat IMO.

    First off you would be forcing Harrington into the starters role; he may blossom in that role but he could equally show that he is better suited as a 6th man. There have been many players over the years who are at their best playing against 2nd units as 6th men; Aaron McKie is a perfect example when he is forced to start the 1st couple games he can look great but over the long run he starts to struggle and you find out why he is best suited as a 6th man I think Harrington's best role is coming off the bench and if he was relied on to start 82 games he would transgress and not be as productive as he is in his current role. Also you would be weakening your 2nd unit considerably by starting him.

    Second, losing Artest you would lose championship quality intangibles that I saw him bring to your team this season. The grit and the ability to take the challenge of defending the stud scorers of the other team; who would fill the void as your "defensive stopper" with Artest gone? The first time Pierce dropped 45 or TMac dropped 50 against the Pacers you would be praying you had Artest back in there. You simply can't lose your best defensive player and expect to stay at the same level as a team trust me I know when we lossed our best defensive player in Ratliff the defense really suffered and you wouldn't just be able to throw anybody in there to replace Artest.

    Third, the Pacers have great chemistry, by moving Artest your taking out a huge part of that chemistry and you just don't know if Allen will fit in as nicely and whether the chemistry would click. Just my opinion but if I'm the Pacers I don't pull a Larry Brown this offseason and change key ingredients like Artest I would just slightly tweak the roster by adding a more productive starting two guard unless you get an offer you can't refuse like Harrington for Ray Allen etc.,, But to me Artest and JO would be untouchable unless your getting an elite superstar like McGrady in return. So I think you would be easier to beat, your defense would be weaker, your bench would be weaker, you would lose mental toughness, your offense would probably be slightly better unless Harrington struggled then it would be about the same.

    Great, great stuff as always DD.

    One thing I fear is the Pacers doing what the Sixers did over the past 3 seasons. Sixers kept trading one good defender after another until they finally hit rock bottom by acquiring Glenn Robinson. All everyone ever said is the Sixers needed another scorer, well they traded for a few scorers over the past two seasons who were horrible defenders, and the net result was the Sixers were worse after they acquired their "scorers"

    That is what I call fantasy league basketball. it might look good on paper it might sound good in theory , but all of a sudden you wake up one day and you discover your team stinks. And I'll tell you, it does not take but one or two moves for a team to take a quick turn south.

    Pacers need to be very careful this summer

  24. #24
    ENABEABLER MagicRat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Important question for all non-Pacers fans

    who would fill the void as your "defensive stopper" with Artest gone? The first time Pierce dropped 45 or TMac dropped 50 against the Pacers you would be praying you had Artest back in there.
    Well, the only time I saw TMac in person this year, Ron held him to 43. Since he didn't let him get to 50 I guess we should let Ron hang around............ :P
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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Important question for all non-Pacers fans

    Yes you guys would then be easier to beat IMO.

    First off you would be forcing Harrington into the starters role; he may blossom in that role but he could equally show that he is better suited as a 6th man. There have been many players over the years who are at their best playing against 2nd units as 6th men; Aaron McKie is a perfect example when he is forced to start the 1st couple games he can look great but over the long run he starts to struggle and you find out why he is best suited as a 6th man I think Harrington's best role is coming off the bench and if he was relied on to start 82 games he would transgress and not be as productive as he is in his current role. Also you would be weakening your 2nd unit considerably by starting him.

    Second, losing Artest you would lose championship quality intangibles that I saw him bring to your team this season. The grit and the ability to take the challenge of defending the stud scorers of the other team; who would fill the void as your "defensive stopper" with Artest gone? The first time Pierce dropped 45 or TMac dropped 50 against the Pacers you would be praying you had Artest back in there. You simply can't lose your best defensive player and expect to stay at the same level as a team trust me I know when we lossed our best defensive player in Ratliff the defense really suffered and you wouldn't just be able to throw anybody in there to replace Artest.

    Third, the Pacers have great chemistry, by moving Artest your taking out a huge part of that chemistry and you just don't know if Allen will fit in as nicely and whether the chemistry would click. Just my opinion but if I'm the Pacers I don't pull a Larry Brown this offseason and change key ingredients like Artest I would just slightly tweak the roster by adding a more productive starting two guard unless you get an offer you can't refuse like Harrington for Ray Allen etc.,, But to me Artest and JO would be untouchable unless your getting an elite superstar like McGrady in return. So I think you would be easier to beat, your defense would be weaker, your bench would be weaker, you would lose mental toughness, your offense would probably be slightly better unless Harrington struggled then it would be about the same.

    Great, great stuff as always DD.

    One thing I fear is the Pacers doing what the Sixers did over the past 3 seasons. Sixers kept trading one good defender after another until they finally hit rock bottom by acquiring Glenn Robinson. All everyone ever said is the Sixers needed another scorer, well they traded for a few scorers over the past two seasons who were horrible defenders, and the net result was the Sixers were worse after they acquired their "scorers"

    That is what I call fantasy league basketball. it might look good on paper it might sound good in theory , but all of a sudden you wake up one day and you discover your team stinks. And I'll tell you, it does not take but one or two moves for a team to take a quick turn south.

    Pacers need to be very careful this summer
    But that followed years of trading other scorers so that Iverson would have players he would work with. (notice I said would not could)

    Philly is NOT a good example of trading.

    Artest would not be traded because of ability. If he is traded you can rest assured that there is another reason for it.


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