Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 73

Thread: Trading JO this summer, might be the worst move the Pacers ever make

  1. #1
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    32,988

    Default Trading JO this summer, might be the worst move the Pacers ever make

    I have posted these thoughts before, so I will keep it short and sweet. But after reading Kravitz column, I decided to start a thread on this topic.

    Trading JO this off season would probably be the worst move the Pacers have ever made. Jo's trade value has never and will never be lower than this summer. He has two years left on his deal, so starting around the trade deadline (next February)his trade value increases slightly, and then next summer it increases by the day, and continues to increase each day during the following regular season. (and of course there is always the long shot that perhaps JO can stay a little healthier next season and that will also increase his trade value) The fact of the matter is that JO's trade value will never be any lower than it is right now.

    So of course Kravitz wants the Pacers to trade JO now, and he'll be the first one to criticize the Pacers when a bad deal is made.

    Sure, I think it would be best for the franchise if JO is playing somewhere else next season - but I truly believe in this situation, waiting to trade him in a year or two will help the Pacers franchise in the long run. In fact trading JO at the right time will likely be a more important decision than any draft pick the Pacers take over the next two years.




    Here is Bob's column

    http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...plate=printart


    Bob Kravitz

    No. 1 priority for Bird: Deal Tinsley and O'Neal


    It's great that Herb Simon has chosen to transform himself from a hands-off owner to a hands-on kind of guy. And it's great that Simon hired Jim Morris, the noted businessman and philanthropist, to run the company's off-the-court operation. If Morris can survive Darfur, he can survive the Indiana Pacers.

    Probably.

    But all of the front-office shuffling will be rendered meaningless if the guy running the basketball operation, Larry Bird, doesn't accomplish two things this summer:

    He must get rid of Jamaal Tinsley. Trade, buyout, set him adrift on an Arctic ice floe. Whatever.

    He must trade Jermaine O'Neal.

    If those two players are still here when we meet again in October, the Pacers will have made no progress toward rebuilding this team, and the leash on Bird will become dramatically shorter.

    Tinsley's act grew stale about four years ago. It doesn't matter how his various off-court issues have been resolved by the courts. The perception of him is never going to change, not here.

    And to think, one pick after Tinsley was chosen 27th in the 2001 draft, the San Antonio Spurs selected a point guard named Tony Parker.

    What's French for "Ouch!''?

    With O'Neal, it's not a personality or perception issue; it's his salary. When he was given the maximum contract in 2003, most of us applauded that deal, viewing O'Neal as the team's new centerpiece and Reggie Miller's heir apparent.

    Now, though, he's a $40 million albatross who, if he stays in Indiana, destroys any Pacers hopes for future cap flexibility.

    Can a brother make a suggestion? How about sending O'Neal to the Knicks for Stephon Marbury. Yes, Marbury is a waste, but he has only one year left on his deal. If the Pacers are willing to bite the bullet for one season, more than $20 million will come off the books in 2009-10.

    During a Wednesday afternoon news conference to announce the team's front-office changes, Bird fell short of saying he would trade O'Neal, but he made it abundantly clear that he's going to try. And that would be best for both of them. Face it: O'Neal doesn't fit with coach Jim O'Brien's style, and both parties know it. Add to that the fact that O'Neal and Bird have had a contentious relationship since Bird fired Isiah Thomas, and you have a bad marriage that's headed for a divorce.

    O'Neal didn't want to talk about his future or whether Wednesday's game might be his last as a Pacer.

    When a deal gets done, it's not important whether Bird gets full or even partial value for O'Neal, whose injury problems make him a tough sell. What Bird and this franchise need is cap flexibility. They need to take on an expiring contract or two, giving them freedom to make some moves in the next few years.

    This franchise has got to accept the fact that getting better might mean getting worse, a lot worse, first.

    "I think at the small forward and two guard, we're pretty well set with Danny (Granger), Shawne (Williams) and Mike (Dunleavy),'' Bird said. "Any time you go into the draft, you look for point guards and you look for big guys. It's according to what's going to be there. If there's a point guard we really like, we have to look at him. But if there's a big man there, you always like the bigs.

    "At the four position we could use another guy. We've got a lot of holes to fill.''

    Does that sound like O'Neal is in Bird's plans?

    "I'm sure he (O'Neal) will look at all his options, and we'll look at ours,'' Bird said. "Throughout the summer, we'll probably be talking to some teams and seeing what kind of interest they have in him. He hasn't told us if he wants to stay here or if he wants to go somewhere else, but there comes a time in any player's basketball career that you want to try to do what's best for yourself and for your team.''

    Goodbye, Jermaine.

    Good guy, good representative of this franchise. But it's time. It's just time.

    Time, finally, to rebuild.

    There will be exit interviews today between Bird and the players, and you would think, and hope, it will mark the last time several enter the Fieldhouse as members of the home team.

    Tinsley is gone. Marquis Daniels is on the chopping block. David Harrison is history. Kareem Rush was relegated to the bench the last few weeks. Shawne Williams? You wonder. He's still young, cheap and talented, but . . . And O'Neal has almost certainly played his final game as a Pacer.

    The franchise made some strong and necessary front-office moves Wednesday afternoon. Simon needed to get more involved in this business. Morris, who told WFNI-1070, "We will not have bums here,'' seems to have the right idea. But ultimately it's about winning, and second, it's about winning with palatable players.

    That leaves it up to Bird.

    If Tinsley and/or O'Neal are still here in October, the clock on Larry Legend's reign starts ticking.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 04-17-2008 at 10:38 AM.

  2. #2

    Default Kravitz: Deal Tinsley and O'Neal

    I find it noteworthy that he mentions the possibility of buying out Tinsley if they can't make a deal. If a silly scribbler with no ties to the organization and no motivation but to stir up talk and trouble mentions it, can an actual buyout be far behind???

    Seriously, can anyone discuss knowledgeably what a buyout of Tinsley might cost, what benefits to the team would balance the straight-up loss, and so forth? I'm assuming they'd pay less than the full amount owed, but that it would still be an awesome chunk of money coming out of Herb's pocket.



    (Buck, thanks for combining the threads.)
    Last edited by Putnam; 04-17-2008 at 08:43 AM.
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

  3. #3

    Default Re: Trading JO this summer, might be the worst move the Pacers ever made

    jo's trade value has become lower and lower each season we have kept him on this team...the pacers need to trade granger pre-draft, which in turn would make trading jo much easier because it would then reduce our asking price after having received our 'prospect(s)' via the granger trade...

  4. #4
    It's my opinion, relax! Vince Neil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    143

    Default Re: Kravitz: Deal Tinsley and O'Neal

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Seriously, can anyone discuss knowledgeably what a buyout of Tinsley might cost, what benefits to the team would balance the straight-up loss, and so forth? I'm assuming they'd pay less than the full amount owed, but that it would still be an awesome chunk of money coming out of Herb's pocket.
    Can a price be put on the negative publicity Tinsley has accumulated? A huge chunk of money already has come out of Herb's pocket the last few years (low attendance and playoff revenue). I'm sure the Pacers brass has already discussed the financial impact of a buyout of Tinsley as one of their options.

  5. #5
    Member Speed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Brownsburg
    Posts
    8,621

    Default Re: Trading JO this summer, might be the worst move the Pacers ever made

    Quote Originally Posted by croz24 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    jo's trade value has become lower and lower each season we have kept him on this team...the pacers need to trade granger pre-draft, which in turn would make trading jo much easier because it would then reduce our asking price after having received our 'prospect(s)' via the granger trade...
    I gotta say I'm against moving Granger for almost anything at this point. He turns 25 next week and just averaged 19.6 and 6.1, while guarding the other teams best wing guy. Very few people in the league I'd trade him for.

    Otherwise, I can see both sides of it. If you can move JO now for expiring contracts, you do it. If not you hold on to him cuz his contract is up the same time Lebron and Melo's is, I think, among others. If teams can get a big expiring contract the same year those two become available, they think they have a shot at him.

    As far as getting cap room to sign a free agent and/or your own guys long term (Granger) and honestly that is the only reason to worry about the cap. I've always thought outside free agents won't come here, but then I was thinking about Utah who has picked up Boozer and Okur in the last couple of years. That kinda makes me think.

    I'm thinking the game plan needs to be to basically unload as much cap as possible and try to coincide the Granger resigning with going after a Free agent with potential, draft well, then you have a shot a turning it around and maybe into a contender. In this scenario, you do need to move JO for the first expiring contract(s).

    I know I'm oversimplifying things, but I think you NOW need to focus everything around Granger and when you will sign him to a long term contract. Thats at least a game plan and Utah is a pretty good model for it.

  6. #6
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    5,772

    Default Re: Trading JO this summer, might be the worst move the Pacers ever made

    Quote Originally Posted by croz24 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    jo's trade value has become lower and lower each season we have kept him on this team...the pacers need to trade granger pre-draft, which in turn would make trading jo much easier because it would then reduce our asking price after having received our 'prospect(s)' via the granger trade...
    Did Danny run over this guy's cat or something?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Kravitz: Deal Tinsley and O'Neal

    First off, it seems I missed the official announcement, but CONGRATULATIONS
    (I think) to Unclebuck for his promotion to Admin status.

    I like the part about the "Arctic ice floe", and hope they do find a way to
    move these guys without losing too much.

    And as soon as O'Neal is moved, I hope they've learned their lesson about
    caving in to these player's agents and never hand out another max contract
    again.

  8. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Brown County, Indiana
    Posts
    3,800

    Default Re: Trading JO this summer, might be the worst move the Pacers ever made

    Quote Originally Posted by croz24 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    jo's trade value has become lower and lower each season we have kept him on this team...the pacers need to trade granger pre-draft, which in turn would make trading jo much easier because it would then reduce our asking price after having received our 'prospect(s)' via the granger trade...
    Why do people want to keep posting about trading the most productive players on the team?

    I understand that sometimes a team must let go of a good player along with a lesser player in order to get the other team to make a deal, but you don't do that with your most productive (or at least one of the top two) player.

    In addition, to say we should trade Granger for "prospects" in order to be able to reduce the asking price for O'Neal makes absolutely no sense to me.

  9. #9
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    23,748

    Default Re: Kravitz: Deal Tinsley and O'Neal

    Quote Originally Posted by RamBo_Lamar View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    never hand out another max contract again.
    Youch.
    Welcome to Pacers Digest! New around here? Here are three tips for making the forum a great place to talk about Pacers basketball.

    • Log in. Even if you want to read instead of post, it's helpful because it lets you:
    • Change your signature options. You can hide all signatures by choosing "Settings" (top right) then "General Settings" (middle left) and unchecking the box "Show Signatures" (in the "Thread Display Options" area).
    • Create an ignore list. I know it may seem unneighborly. But you're here to talk about the Pacers, not argue with someone who's just looking for an argument. Most of the regular users on here make use (at least occasionally) of the "Ignore" feature. Just go to "Settings" -> "Edit Ignore List" and add the names.

    Enjoy your time at PD!

  10. #10
    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    New Haven, CT
    Posts
    8,752

    Default Re: Kravitz: Deal Tinsley and O'Neal

    I think it sounds like Bird is fairly set with Dunleavy at the two.

  11. #11
    Banned Jonathan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    1,833

    Default Re: Kravitz: Deal Tinsley and O'Neal

    KRAVITZ:
    How does JO not fit into JOB's System? When O'Brien was hired he was exicited about coaching Jermaine. He loved the fact he was a post prescence and played D. JOB preaches Defense; That is the number one reason IKE & Graham do not get minutes. The fact BOB MY KNOB KRAVITZ wants to ship him for Marbury is PATHETIC. Our organization was embarressed by the Club Rio incident; Let's not forget Steph's testimony in the sexual harrassment case.
    Buying out Tinsley? Bird has already said if you this and he goes to another team ie Cleveland and makes them better it is a huge loss. I think all this talk of trading Tinsley is just that TALK.

    Uncle Buck, Please never post a Kravitz article again.

  12. #12
    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Age
    38
    Posts
    1,428

    Default Re: Trading JO this summer, might be the worst move the Pacers ever made

    I'm a huge Tinsley fan. He's an important piece but a player relied on this much can't miss so much time. On the other hand, teams can't just start cutting players. Tinsley can still grab pieces from other teams. Maybe they wont be starting material, or young prospects, or first round picks but they'll be something. Something preferably healthy.

    I feel the same way about O'Neal. Great player, great impact, too much time missed etc....

    I don't agree with Kravitz on this issue. "At all costs" is never a good idea. JO's value has been discussed and team management knows alot more than we do (I assume). I think the same thing applies to Jamaal.

    Also, after missing the playoffs for the second year, I don't think the Pacers are set at any position including small forward/shooting guard. There are some likable guys (Diener), consummate professionals ( Foster), even borderline stars (Dun & Granger). Really though, this team is starting behind the eight ball and they have to start thinking like that. Cutting players outright, trading cornerstone players in desperation, relying on borderline NBA players to fill out rotations(not just fill up the bench) isn't gonna cut it. The plan has to be a little more well thought out and executed with precision.

  13. #13
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    17,802

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Trading JO this summer, might be the worst move the Pacers ever made

    They should have traded him last summer. His value will never be that high again (well, I guess it will be high in a year to a team that wants a large contract coming off the books).

  14. #14

    Default Re: Trading JO this summer, might be the worst move the Pacers ever made

    UB-

    I've come around to your point of view. Assuming J.O. isn't willing
    to opt-out as part of a sign and trade deal, the chance of moving
    him now in any deal that doesn't just make things worse is slim
    and none.

    If we can find some team dumb enough to trade a contract and
    a talented young prospect and/or a draft pick (ala a Marbury and
    Lee or Marbury, Lee and a 1st round pick deal), then great, do
    it. But otherwise, being him back, limit his minutes to 30 or so
    a game next year and then shop him when his contract moves
    from being an albatross to being attractive.

    As for Tinsley, whatever. Trade him, pay him to sit in the stands,
    whatever. I could care less about him.

  15. #15
    sweabs
    Guest

    Default Re: Trading JO this summer, might be the worst move the Pacers ever made

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam1987 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    They should have traded him last summer. His value will never be that high again (well, I guess it will be high in a year to a team that wants a large contract coming off the books).
    I suggested trading him after the 2003 season in a deal for Bosh. I was ridiculed at the time.

  16. #16
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    17,802

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Trading JO this summer, might be the worst move the Pacers ever made

    Quote Originally Posted by rcarey View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I suggested trading him after the 2003 season in a deal for Bosh. I was ridiculed at the time.
    Too bad we didn't, Bosh has been better than JO for a couple of years now and his career is still on it's upside while JO's is on it's downside.

  17. #17
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    32,988

    Default Re: Trading JO this summer, might be the worst move the Pacers ever made

    Quote Originally Posted by rcarey View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I suggested trading him after the 2003 season in a deal for Bosh. I was ridiculed at the time.
    My understanding is the Pacers tried to make that trade (not sure if it was summer of '03 or '04) but the Raptors said no

  18. #18
    sweabs
    Guest

    Default Re: Trading JO this summer, might be the worst move the Pacers ever made

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    My understanding is the Pacers tried to make that trade (not sure if it was summer of '03 or '04) but the Raptors said no
    I am almost certain they were trying to do that trade a year later (in '04). By then, it was too late. Bosh had started to blossom into the player he is today, and everyone and their Grandma knew he would turn into a real good player. I was hoping for more of the Dale Davis/JO type of trade (getting the guy before he blossoms and shows signs of excellence).

    I think they could have done it in '03. Don't you?
    Last edited by sweabs; 04-17-2008 at 10:44 AM.

  19. #19
    Go Colts! Shade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Age
    36
    Posts
    44,864

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Trading JO this summer, might be the worst move the Pacers ever make

    continues to show his ignorance.

  20. #20
    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    New Haven, CT
    Posts
    8,752

    Default Re: Trading JO this summer, might be the worst move the Pacers ever made

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam1987 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    They should have traded him last summer. His value will never be that high again (well, I guess it will be high in a year to a team that wants a large contract coming off the books).
    Very true. JO was a legitimate all-star last year. Not trading him this off-season was one of the biggest mistakes we've made in recent years. And for this franchise, that's saying a lot.

  21. #21
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    586

    Default Re: Trading JO this summer, might be the worst move the Pacers ever make

    [quote=Unclebuck;700092]

    Trading JO this off season would probably be the worst move the Pacers have ever made. Jo's trade value has never and will never be lower than this summer. He has two years left on his deal, so starting around the trade deadline (next February)his trade value increases slightly, and then next summer it increases by the day, and continues to increase each day during the following regular season. (and of course there is always the long shot that perhaps JO can stay a little healthier next season and that will also increase his trade value) The fact of the matter is that JO's trade value will never be any lower than it is right now.

    I agree completely. Folks like Kravitz are being extremely simplistic and ignorant when they basically say they want to close their eyes and magically make JO and Tinsley disappear, damn the consequences. To trade JO when his trade value is at its nadir could have devastating effects that would take years to recover from. Also, people keep forgetting that the man is 29 years old, not 39.

  22. #22
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Danberry
    Age
    55
    Posts
    12,192

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Trading JO this summer, might be the worst move the Pacers ever made

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Very true. JO was a legitimate all-star last year. Not trading him this off-season was one of the biggest mistakes we've made in recent years. And for this franchise, that's saying a lot.
    Yeah, gee, every successful franchise got there by trading their legitimate all-stars. How could we have missed that opportunity?
    BillS

    "Every time I pitched it was like throwing gasoline on a fire. Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw!"
    - Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh

  23. #23
    Yeah, I'm a Pacers fan. MyFavMartin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    In the Washington DC area
    Posts
    4,324
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Trading JO this summer, might be the worst move the Pacers ever make

    Quote Originally Posted by RomanGabriel View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I agree completely. Folks like Kravitz are being extremely simplistic and ignorant when they basically say they want to close their eyes and magically make JO and Tinsley disappear, damn the consequences. To trade JO when his trade value is at its nadir could have devastating effects that would take years to recover from. Also, people keep forgetting that the man is 29 years old, not 39.
    Ditto.

    Hold on to JO for a good offer. His value increases as his contract nears expiration. Bosh and Lebron expire at the same time as JO. Who wants 09-10 capspace?

  24. #24
    Formerly QuickRelease NapTonius Monk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    4,799

    Default Re: Trading JO this summer, might be the worst move the Pacers ever made

    Quote Originally Posted by croz24 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    jo's trade value has become lower and lower each season we have kept him on this team...the pacers need to trade granger pre-draft, which in turn would make trading jo much easier because it would then reduce our asking price after having received our 'prospect(s)' via the granger trade...
    Croz man, you can drop this Trade Granger thing. It will not happen. He's the one thing that's right about this organization. We have other good young pieces to sweeten a deal, but Danny ain't one of em. I understand what you're saying, but trading Danny would probably be the benchmark for stupid moves by The Big LB.

  25. #25
    Go Colts! Shade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Age
    36
    Posts
    44,864

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Trading JO this summer, might be the worst move the Pacers ever make

    Quote Originally Posted by iPACER View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Ditto.

    Hold on to JO for a good offer. His value increases as his contract nears expiration. Bosh and Lebron expire at the same time as JO. Who wants 09-10 capspace?
    Agreed 100%.

    It's gonna take us a few years to rebuild anyhow. That max contract could go a long way to helping accomplish the task.

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 04-17-2008, 08:33 AM
  2. Replies: 17
    Last Post: 02-25-2008, 11:33 PM
  3. Replies: 8
    Last Post: 02-20-2008, 04:14 PM
  4. Tinsley calls incident a "stupid mistake"-IndyStar
    By Trader Joe in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 63
    Last Post: 12-11-2007, 09:44 AM
  5. Article: O'Neal: "Not Really Enjoying It"
    By 2Cleva in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 190
    Last Post: 11-21-2007, 06:10 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •