Tweet
Thoughts?
The Rules of Pacers Digest
Hello everyone,
Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.
A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.
Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.
Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.
Rule #1
Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:
"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"
"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"
"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"
"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"
"He/she is just delusional"
"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"
"I'm going to take a moment to point and
/ laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"
"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good?"
In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.
We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.
Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.
That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.
A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.
There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.
Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.
In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.
Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.
If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!
All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.
Rule #2
If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.
The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.
The right places to do so are:
A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.
B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.
If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.
Rule #3
If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.
When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:
A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.
B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.
To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!
Rule #4
Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.
Rule #5
When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.
An example:
If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:
http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star
Rule #6
We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.
The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.
Rule #7
Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.
It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).
We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).
However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.
Rule #8
We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.
Rule #9
Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.
Rule #10
We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.
Rule #11
Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.
A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.
Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.
Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.
Rule #1
Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:
"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"
"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"
"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"
"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"
"He/she is just delusional"
"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"
"I'm going to take a moment to point and
/ laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*""Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good?
"In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.
We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.
Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.
That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.
A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.
There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.
Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.
In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.
Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.
If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!
All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.
Rule #2
If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.
The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.
The right places to do so are:
A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.
B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.
If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.
Rule #3
If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.
When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:
A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.
B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.
To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!
Rule #4
Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.
Rule #5
When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.
An example:
If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:
http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star
Rule #6
We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.
The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.
Rule #7
Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.
It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).
We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).
However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.
Rule #8
We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.
Rule #9
Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.
Rule #10
We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.
Rule #11
Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
See more
See less
-
-
Re: So yeah, uh, Bear Stearns?
Thoughts are with the 4 people I know who work there
Housing market huh? -
Re: So yeah, uh, Bear Stearns?
This isn't over yet either. My buddy's uncle works at Lehman Brothers and they called an emergency meeting. Everyone is preparing for a ripple effect.
Comment
-
Re: So yeah, uh, Bear Stearns?
The first in a whole house of cards.
They screwed up, made horrible decisions and now they'll be paying for it.
That's how business works. I just wish the Fed understood that.
People will be hurt. People will lose money. And guess what - the Fed's reactionary panic-driven response is setting us up for a whole cascade of financial disasters.
When rates bottom out (wouldn't shock me if we get to zero and let me tell you, I'll find a home or homes to buy) the dollar will start to go up - FAST. When that happens, commodity prices will drop like a stone. When that happens a whole new bunch of businesses are going belly up.
The Fed is taking a situation that's deserved - people and companies making stupid credit decisions and suffering for it - and transferring it to all kinds of financial sectors that don't deserve it by irresponsible rate cutting and lending. Once the commodity markets crash stocks will follow.
Is that inevitable? No - it doesn't make sense. But it will happen because corporate holdings and net worth will be tied up in commodities by then and when they fall the whole house could crash down.
Every time the Fed does something - I mean really, could you do a better job of sparking panic than to announce a rate cut on SUNDAY NIGHT??? Maybe next they'll shoot for Easter morning - rather than bite the friggin' bullet they endanger the entire financial sector - not just the ones that were dealing with risky credit.
Things are going to get bad. Then they'll get badder. Until the dollar starts to rise we have a bit of a buffer because goods and services from here will be cheaper for the rest of the world. When the dollar starts to rise then exports will drop, the layoffs will follow and the commodities (which by then is where a lot of corporate and individual net worth will be vested) will take a dive. The Fed will find itself in an impossible situation by then - one it helped create.
Happy days.Last edited by DisplacedKnick; 03-17-2008, 04:32 PM.The poster formerly known as RimfireComment
-
Re: So yeah, uh, Bear Stearns?
DK, you really think we could see 0% interest rates on home loans? That would be incredible! I'd buy a house just to say I had one!Comment
-
Re: So yeah, uh, Bear Stearns?
They're gonna drop it a full point today - that gets them to 2. And this credit crisis isn't gonna stop - I don't think it CAN be stopped.Originally posted by Eindar View PostThe poster formerly known as RimfireComment
-
Re: So yeah, uh, Bear Stearns?
This is nothing new. It's actually a century in the making. The federal reserve was created as a direct result of JP Morgan saving the United States from complete and total bankruptcy during the bankers panic of 1907. Flash forward a hundred years: The federal reserve gave a special loan to JP Morgan Chase (what a surprise) that was signed off by Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson and President George Bush (ON A WEEKEND FOR CHRIST'S SAKE!) so they could buy a seven billion dollar company for a mere 250 million. 250 MILLION! That's less than A-rod's last contract! Only to have their investment in Bear Stearns TRIPLE OVER 2 DAYS! This is one of the biggest and most blatant displays of high level corporate and governmental corruption and greed in history. Read more on the banker's panic of 1907 and how our current economic status directly relates to policy created by President Wilson and the wealthy tycoons from the 19th century:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1907
Comment
-
Re: So yeah, uh, Bear Stearns?
The fed panicked there is no doubt about that, but had they not acted we would be in 1929 again right now. It would be a full blown depression. Nothing wrong with bailing out the banks, but you must help everyone.
Comment
-
Re: So yeah, uh, Bear Stearns?
Nope. The economy's too strong for one sector - Wall St Financial - to pull us into a depression.Originally posted by Indy View Post
The economy is NOT strong enough to handle what the Fed is setting us up for which is to weaken the dollar so much that we A) start an inflationary cycle and b) get everyone invested in commodities.
Commodities aren't meant to be investments - they're meant to be markets based on supply and demand. Commodities rise and fall far, far quicker than any mutual fund ever thought of doing. When a significant portion of this country's wealth becomes vested in commodities and THAT market crashes (which it will do as soon as interest rates bottom out and the dollar starts to rise) you'll see the financial equivalent of blood running in the streets. And I actually shouldn't call it a crash - a commodity market halving or doubling its value in a year's time isn't exactly normal but it's certainly something that's happened from time to time - in 1996 corn futures rose to over 6 on a short crop and a year later it was around $2.30.
In addition, money in commodities doesn't work for our economy the same way money in the stock market does. That's not capital businesses can invest. SOME businesses can because they'll hold contracts but again, when those contracts start to drop they'll be in trouble. For the most part though, contracts are just pieces of paper with value floating around in a very limited sector of the economy, without doing a whole lot to help the economy as a whole.
Commodities markets have always been the gambling man's investment game. It isn't built the same as the stock market and it isn't meant to be used that way - but people are using it that way now and I'm afraid the hurt will be tremendous when it comes.
If the stock market went from the 12,000 it is now to 6,000 in a period of 6 to 9 months we'd have a sure-fire full-blown depression. The commodity market has those kind of year-to-year swings as a matter of course.
A year ago corn was trading about $3.10. Today (just checked) it's at $5.50. Soybeans was somewhere in the high 7's - maybe 7.60 or so. Today it's over $13 (two weeks ago it was at $14.60). I know less about crude except it's shot up. The problem is, these can all go down just as quick. Do people understand how the Malaysian Palm Oil Market impacts soybean prices? Do they know how the weather in S America impacts wheat and soybeans? Or how corn impacts pork bellies and live cattle?
These markets aren't put together like stocks, they carry far, far more risks than stocks and people - and companies - are beginning to invest in them like stocks. That scares me. As interest rates fall the dollar will weaken and commodities will become more attractive. That scares me even more.
Or maybe I'm wrong.Last edited by DisplacedKnick; 03-18-2008, 04:39 PM.The poster formerly known as RimfireComment
-
Re: So yeah, uh, Bear Stearns?
Had Bear Stearns declared bankruptcy we would be seeing an even larger ripple effect...
Comment
-
Re: So yeah, uh, Bear Stearns?
Nah - bankruptcy wouldn't have hurt that company any more than it is now. Maybe less though I don't know the specifics.Originally posted by Indy View Post
As it is, JP Morgan picked it up which means they have their contracts and client lists - but they already have their own people to do what Bear Stearns people do. The layoffs may be greater than if they'd gone bankrupt and I don't think people think any more or less of the company.
As usual the buyout benefited the people at the top of the food chain at BS - the employees are screwed - half to 2/3 will lose their jobs since JP already has people to do those things and the stock selling at $2 is pretty much the same disaster as if it had dropped below a dollar - for people who likely bought the stock when it was above a hundred.
Yeah! The Fed saved a company from bankruptcy.
So what? So executives can keep their jobs and not have their moves and decisions examined by a bankruptcy court?
It's not like bankruptcy means the end of a company. Conseco went Bankrupt, got leaner and more efficient and is back - not as the giant it was but as a profitable insurance-based company (well, not profitable last quarter). I don't know enough specifics but bankruptcy may have been the better option for BS.Last edited by DisplacedKnick; 03-18-2008, 05:49 PM.The poster formerly known as RimfireComment
-
Re: So yeah, uh, Bear Stearns?
The execs will probably be getting charges pressed against them soon. Don't forget the CEO of Bear Stearns went on TV on Thursday and said they had almost 50 billion dollars in assets and more than enough cash to cover their debts in the near future. However that was clearly not the truth. On top of that we'll never what would have happend had Bear Stearns announced bankruptcy. It can be speculated however that stockholders would have sold off shares of companies like Lehman Brothers quicker than they had to in the first place.
Either way we haven't even begun to hear the end of this IMO. At least in terms of what may have gone on behind the scenes.
Bankrupty may have been the better option for BS, but it would not have been the better option for the market as a whole IMO.
Comment
-
Re: So yeah, uh, Bear Stearns?
The economy has gotten to the point where I'm closing my eyes. The bail out was another mark in the bad news column. The feds didn't help the situation.
This election is all about the economy now. If this is how Republicans handle a free market I might hope for Clinton."They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.
"'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."Comment
-
Re: So yeah, uh, Bear Stearns?
We need to have a recession - we'll be better for it IF it's the right kind of recession.
There - I feel better now.
I've been posting from the middle of my position on this mess so I figure I better restate my core position or everyone will think I'm just some big old meanie. I posted this back in Aug or Sept but even though everyone should hang on my every word
folks have probably forgotten it.
Our economy - for at least the past 30 years - has been built on a flawed credit policy. The suprime crisis is the final straw but not the biggest part of this or even the main issue.
I don't know when the last time was that Americans spent less money than they made and average personal net worth was rising. The reason is that credit has been so ridiculously easy to get that folks can bury themselves under debt before they realize what's happening.
The subprime crisis was just the first step. The next one is credit cards and other forms of bad credit. Our society needs to transform itself into one where we actually earn more than we spend.
The only way to get there is by having a recession. I don't see any way how we can change from a society where people are spending 1-2% more than they earn to one where people earn 1-2% more than they spend without one. We're taking 2-4% of the consumer dollars out of the economy. Except when the economy is really booming, that makes a recession.
The subprime crisis was the perfect opportunity to do this. It would be painful. People would hurt. But in the end we'd have a much healthier economy.
Instead we have the Fed. We have the Fed foaming at the mouth in some crazy effort to avoid a richly deserved recession. We have the Fed doing everything in its power to make money easy to get and to keep credit cheap - to continue the same policy that got us in this mess in the first place.
I cannot stress how much I disagree with that. Ordinarily I like the Fed lowering rates to stimulate the economy. This situation is not ordinary. This is a situation the financial sector brought upon itself with easy credit and crappy mortgage policy. The financial sector should feel pain. It should be hurt. It deserves it. If there's someone I feel sorry for it's the homeowners. Some were housing speculators and they're also getting what they deserve - a bear market. But some were first-time homeowners taken in by some slick mortgage broker. I could have supported some sort of plan to bail them out so they could keep their homes. I've discussed elsewhere what I think the consequences should be if they get that - the same damage to their credit as if they'd defaulted on their mortgage. But they keep their homes.
I have no sympathy for Bear-Stearns. They did this to themselves and what's more, they did this to thousands of homeowners. If that company needed to die for its screw-ups then it should die. That's how business works - if you're a bad business, you go under.
So that brings us to where we are today. Nobody's lending money because the subprime mess is still a black hole sucking all the energy out of the housing market - and will be for the next 2 years at least. Credit's gotten tougher to get but not tough enough IMO.
So into what should be a fairly solid recession but stronger economy and society for us we have the Fed. We have the Fed running around trying to keep credit cheap and easy so people can continue to spend more than they earn and we don't get into a recession. But credit isn't getting cheaper or easier. Instead the dollar's getting cheaper and easier. That's good for industry because our exports are priced very favorably and it will keep people in jobs for a while. But it's inflationary. It's going to spark a rise in commodity prices - already has started it actually. And that means inflation.
But now we're at the point where rates can't go much lower. And when they bottom out the dollar will start to rise. Our exports will become less attractive. US citizens will already have less buying power because of inflation and voila! people are laid off, inflation is running wild and we will be in a serious world of hurt.
The Fed is in the process of taking a moderate, necessary recession sparked by one aspect of the economy and turning it into a huge downhill spin cycle which will involve virtually every aspect of our economy.
Again, I hope I'm wrong but this is where I see us headed, thanks to the Fed.
See? I'm really not a meanie.The poster formerly known as RimfireComment
-
Re: So yeah, uh, Bear Stearns?
I can't wait to go buy my Thanksgiving turkey with a wheelbarrow full of money.
Inflation is going to be out of control. There's no stopping it now.
I just don't understand why they needed to open the discount window and drop the rate 75 points. Goldman and Lehman have both already run to take Fed money so it's not like their was any stigma for using the window. And now we're down to 2.25% I know you gotta quell the panic and re-instill some semblence of confidence in Wall Street, but the combination of everything they've done in the past week is just overcorrecting, IMO.Last edited by JayRedd; 03-18-2008, 11:13 PM.Comment
Comment