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Thread: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

  1. #126
    Tree People to the Core! indygeezer's Avatar
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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    GREAT GREAT post brich.


    BTW..I can remember a time when they stretched the truth to say there were 600 fans in attendence at a Cubs game in Wrigley. So it happens there too.




    I checked my charge card bill for last month. Business expense only...$540.00 in gas for my car. I had a net loss of nearly $4000.00 last year. Right now things are looking profitable, but if gas goes up another half-a dollar a gallon, where does that put me. I'm not alone. There are over 5000 realtors in the Metro Indy area and I know alot that attend(ed) Pacer games.

    Perhaps they could start playing some of the games in local gyms so that the fans don't have to drive. Say a game at Butler one week, Southport, the next week and perhaps Anderson after that. Afterall, the players can afford the gas for their Escalades alot easier than I can...let them travel. It wouldn't hurt attendence THAT much, there isn't enough attendence to hurt. (note the sarcasim).
    If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

  2. #127
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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by brich View Post
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    The Pacers aren't a religion
    Heretic. Burn him.



    Just sayin'
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  3. #128
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by brich View Post
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    Let's say you are a fan of a rock band...you buy all of their albums for awhile, and you start paying to see them every time they come to town. Let's say later...they change the lead singer...they have substance abuse problems...and the combination leads to CD's of poor quality, and their live performances are horrid. You might be a fan of some of their early music, and you probably have found memories of their old shows. Are you a bad fan because you stop paying for crappy CD's and crappy concerts? Are you a bandwagon fan because you only paid for them when you liked the product they were selling? You probably still like the band deep down...and if they get their stuff together...you would probably be willing to start shelling out your hard earned money for their CD's and concerts.
    I realize you are getting kudos for this, but I really don't see the connection between being a fan of a particular team and being a fan of a rock band for example. A rock band is not connected with the city where you live, a rock band doesn't play a game weekly or 4 times a week. A rock band puts out a new CD maybe every two years, maybe goes on tour every two years, a rock band never wins or loses, a rock band puts on a performance and then that is it, it is over - there is no next game, there is no next season, there is no new players brought in, no new coaches - there aren't articles in the newspaper daily, there aren't interviews daily, there aren't game reports.........I could go on and on. No I don't see the connection at all.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by brich View Post
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    The Pacers aren't a religion or a country, they are a basketball team. The Pacers organization is ran as a business. Like any business...the better quality they put out...the more revenue...and hopefully...the more profit they generate. It really isn't that complicated. When the quality is poor (or perceived poor)...less people will attend. Simple supply and demand at work.

    When a restaurant loses customers because of health code violations, or because their once great burger is subpar...it isn't the customers fault. That is sheer lunacy. Can you honestly think of another business that you patronize in a similar manner?
    No I don't because it is totally different. When I go to a restaurant, I expect a certain level of service and food quality based upon price I am paying. But I expect that everytime I go.

    brich, the point you are trying to make is that it is the same with the Pacers. No it is not. No one ever guarantees victory -(they cannot) but a resturant can and does guarantee a certain quality) the best teams in the NBA still lose 6 - 8 home games a season - does that mean if you have full season tickets to the Celtics this season and you see them lose 7 times that you did not get your money's worth for those 7 games. Of courre not.

    No the big difference is that a sports team is playing an opponent every night, one team is going to lose one team is going to win. When you go to a restaurant, movie or a broadway play - there isn't going to be a losing side - you might not like the food, or the play or the movie - but your team is never going to lose a game going to any of those places. .

    So my point is deciding whether to go to a Pacers game because they aren't going to win - cannot be compared to any other type of entertainment

  5. #130
    dennaB Twes's Avatar
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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    I don't think anyone is suggesting that attendance goes up and down night to night with the literal wins and loses.

    I think what IS being suggested is that a lot of things have gone wrong with the team and people have lost confidence in it.

    They are still fans but they don't feel the need to spend top dollar for a product that isn't a relevant force in the quest for championships. Not only are they not a viable contender but they have been an outright embarrassment to the community and NBA.

    When the team comes around a lot more people will work their way back into the arena.

    Is it wrong for those that year after year shell out bucks for season tickets? Of course not. It's damn admirable.

    But it's also not wrong for those that choose not to reward what they feel is an inferior product or broken organization.
    Last edited by Twes; 03-13-2008 at 09:24 AM.

  6. #131
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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Twes View Post
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    I don't think anyone is suggesting that attendance goes up and down night to night with the literal wins and loses.

    I think what IS being suggested is that a lot of things have gone wrong with the team and people have lost confidence in it.

    They are still fans but they don't feel the need to spend top dollar for a product that isn't a relevant force in the quest for championships. Not only are they not a viable contender but they have been an outright embarrassment to the community and NBA.

    When the team comes around a lot more people will work their way back into the arena.

    Is it wrong for those that year after year shell out bucks for season tickets? Of course not. It's damn admirable.

    But it's also not wrong for those that choose not to reward what they feel is an inferior product or broken organization.

    I don't disagree with you. I just hope that this doesn't make the whole product leave town.
    Passion. Pride. Patience. Pacers

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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    No I don't because it is totally different. When I go to a restaurant, I expect a certain level of service and food quality based upon price I am paying. But I expect that everytime I go.

    brich, the point you are trying to make is that it is the same with the Pacers. No it is not. No one ever guarantees victory -(they cannot) but a resturant can and does guarantee a certain quality) the best teams in the NBA still lose 6 - 8 home games a season - does that mean if you have full season tickets to the Celtics this season and you see them lose 7 times that you did not get your money's worth for those 7 games. Of courre not.

    No the big difference is that a sports team is playing an opponent every night, one team is going to lose one team is going to win. When you go to a restaurant, movie or a broadway play - there isn't going to be a losing side - you might not like the food, or the play or the movie - but your team is never going to lose a game going to any of those places. .

    So my point is deciding whether to go to a Pacers game because they aren't going to win - cannot be compared to any other type of entertainment
    Buck...I think you are being a little too literal with the use of an analogy. A restaurant or a rock band isn't 100% like the Pacers obviously. But, any business, whatever product or service they provide is going to reap what they sow based on the quality of that product or service. I know you are aware of this. That was the point of the analogies.

    The service/product that the Pacers provide is not solely based off of wins and losses. Of course the Pacers can't guarantee victory every night, and the average reasonable fan realizes this. The Pacers can however manipulate who they draft, trade for, hire for coach, marketing, promotions, etc. How well they manipulate those variables impacts the success of the franchise, the competitiveness of the team, and the engagement of its fan base. I am not saying this is easy, and it is certainly tougher then making a good hamburger (although the restaurant business is certainly not an easy one to get into).

    Fans need to have some kind of hope. Hope that the team can win, hope that the team is developing, hope that they are headed in the right direction, etc. You will get a few more fans once the general consensus is the team is headed in the right direction. You will get a few more when the team starts being competitive, and you will get alot more when the team starts winning. That is just the way it goes. The Pacers will have a much tougher time getting fans back into the fold then would be customary for a normal rebuilding cycle because of all the off court issues and the neverending cascade of empty promises to address them.

    You are an extreme fan, you make up a small percentage of fans for any sports team, and I think that is admirable. You remind me of the William Wallace type (Braveheart) willing to ride into town with your face painted in Pacer colors and uniting Pace fans against its foes no matter what. There probably isn't much the Pacers could do to shake you from your undying loyalty and dedication to the team. I think that is great, but most people, no matter where they live, aren't that loyal and dedicated. I am not being facetious when I say this, but the Pacers are fortunate to have a fans like yourself.
    Last edited by brich; 03-13-2008 at 10:03 AM.
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  8. #133
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by brich View Post
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    Buck...I think you are being a little too literal with the use of an analogy. A restaurant or a rock band isn't 100% like the Pacers obviously. But, any business, whatever product or service they provide is going to reap what they sow based on the quality of that product or service. I know you are aware of this. That was the point of the analogies.

    The service/product that the Pacers provide is not solely based off of wins and losses. Of course the Pacers can't guarantee victory every night, and the average reasonable fan realizes this. The Pacers can however manipulate who they draft, trade for, hire for coach, marketing, promotions, etc. How well they manipulate those variables impacts the success of the franchise, the competitiveness of the team, and the engagement of its fan base. I am not saying this is easy, and it is certainly tougher then making a good hamburger (although the restaurant business is certainly not an easy one to get into).

    Fans need to have some kind of hope. Hope that the team can win, hope that the team is developing, hope that they are headed in the right direction, etc. You will get a few more fans once the general consensus is the team is headed in the right direction. You will get a few more when the team starts being competitive, and you will get alot more when the team starts winning. That is just the way it goes. The Pacers will have a much tougher time getting fans back into the fold then would be customary for a normal rebuilding cycle because of all the off court issues and the neverending cascade of empty promises to address them.

    You are an extreme fan, you make up a small percentage of fans for any sports team, and I think that is admirable. You remind me of the William Wallace type (Braveheart) willing to ride into town with your face painted in Pacer colors and uniting Pace fans against its foes no matter what. There probably isn't much the Pacers could do to shake you from your undying loyalty and dedication to the team. I think that is great, but most people, no matter where they live, aren't that loyal and dedicated. I am not being facetious when I say this, but the Pacers are fortunate to have a fans like yourself.
    I understand your points and agree with your points. I just wanted to make sure someone mentioned some of the differences between a sports team and a restaurant - because I hear the anology used IMO incorrectly all the time - not you brich. Sports competition is different. I've heard sports fans say after seeing a great exciting game (but their team lost) they will often say I can't take this anymore and then they incorrectly use the anology you used comparing it to a broadway show or movie

  9. #134
    dennaB Twes's Avatar
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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by USF View Post
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    I don't disagree with you. I just hope that this doesn't make the whole product leave town.
    At the end of the day if organizations continue to make bad decisions and expect fans and tv contracts to bail them out then they should feel financial pressure to change something.

    And one of these days they are going to realize that uprooting fan tradition and base support means something. Costs something.

    I've always felt that sports franchises haven't yet felt the full repercussions of the free agency rotating door leagues.

    The people who buy the tickets (my generation - old people) have this entire childhood of growing up with loyalty to stable, set teams. I know there's always been change but you know what I mean. Owners holding cities hostage for new arenas at the drop of a hat.

    What's going to happen with all of this uprooting of teams when the next generation is paying the bill.
    You think my generation stops buying tickets too quickly you ain't seen nothin yet.
    Last edited by Twes; 03-13-2008 at 10:40 AM.

  10. #135
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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Twes View Post
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    At the end of the day if organizations continue to make bad decisions and expect fans and tv contracts to bail them out then they should feel financial pressure to change something.

    And one of these days they are going to realize that uprooting fan tradition and base support means something. Costs something.

    I've always felt that sports franchises haven't yet felt the full repercussions of the free agency rotating door leagues.

    The people who buy the tickets (my generation - old people) have this entire childhood of growing up with loyalty to stable, set teams. I know there's always been change but you know what I mean. Owners holding cities hostage for new arenas at the drop of a hat.

    What's going to happen with all of this uprooting of teams when the next generation is paying the bill.
    You think my generation stops buying tickets too quickly you ain't seen nothin yet.
    I understand what you're saying and I've always wondered the same as far as how much support a team can actually get when the players continue to change every year. I think stability plays a huge role in fan support. I'm 24 and this is my first year as a season ticket holder (lifelong fan), but I plan on renewing every year just because I love the experience of rooting for my team at the Fieldhouse. Granted, this year is nothing compared to when I used to attend games when I was younger, but I still enjoy it.

    I really hope that this summer we go through some major changes while leaving the nucleus of Dunleavy/Granger/Foster (IMO) on the team and hopefully the fan support can follow these guys. The Pacers have been a pretty stable franchise throughout even the free agency years up until "The Brawl," and I would love to see us get back that way. I think this generation of fans just needs a player or two that they can fully support while the other guys stay out of the negative press and the fans will come back.
    Passion. Pride. Patience. Pacers

  11. #136
    Member owl's Avatar
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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    Sports are great and serve to bind us together but there is soo much more to life.
    There are so many other things we can do and people even in a boring state like Indiana
    find other ways to spend their money. And if ultimately the Pacers or Colts decide to leave
    town because Indy is not a great sports town, so be it. I will miss them but I will be just as
    happy the next day. Benner's column was just a stir the pot column worthy of the best
    Kravitz churns out.
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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    I know everyone is going to blast him for daring to expect fans to support the team, but there is a MASSIVE KEY here...

    2003 Manning, Harrison, Dungy and Edge called, they wanted to talk about some blacked out games issues.
    1991 called, it wants that joke back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    And that, friends, is why I never, ever want to here it in support of the fanbase. They already choked, many times over. They couldn't fill it up to watch Reggie till AFTER a couple of ECF runs, they couldn't keep 5000 Titans fans out of a HOME PLAYOFF GAME, again featuring Manning.

    The fact that they would bail on a losing Pacers team isn't surprising in the least. Is it worse because of incidents, sure, but don't kid yourself into thinking that if it was Reggie, Dale and Jax out there winning 30 that you wouldn't have empty seats....because it's already happened. It's not theory, it's history.
    Indianapolis is no different than any other fan base in the country.

    Did you notice Philly was just a couple spots above the Pacers on the attendance? And Philly has a reputation for being such a hard-core fan base. Not to mention the Philly metropolitan area is one of the largest in the country.

    Indy has supported the Pacers and Colts just fine in recent years.

    I know you harp on the fact that the Titans fans were able to come up and get tickets for the playoff game 9 years ago. Indy fans scalp their tickets, that's just a reality we have to live with. But it sure does happen a lot of other places as well. Look at this article that talks about how Steelers, yes Steelers, playoff tickets were easy to come by. And I thought Pittsburgh was one of the greatest fan bases in the country?

    http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08006/847178-66.stm

    Tickets were available for a Pittsburgh Steelers playoff game up to an hour before the game! The Steelers *are* Pittsburgh, yet they apparently had trouble selling that game out. So it's not that hard to believe that the Colts would have trouble selling out a game 9 years ago, when the Colts were still viewed as not really being Indy's own.

    Let's look at some facts that prove that Indy has been pretty good about supporting the Colts in recent years.

    In 2002 the Colts averaged 56,669 fans, filling the Dome to an average 94% capacity. That year they were coming off of a disastrous 2001 season in which they failed to even make the postseason, so they weren't exactly at the height of their popularity. Let's compare that to the Pittsbugh Steelers, Oakland Raiders, and Detroit Lions, 3 "hardened" fanbases with so-called diehard fans.

    In 02, the Steelers averaged 61,284 fans filling to 94.3% capacity, the Lions averaged 61,217 fans filling to 94.2% capacity, and the Raiders averaged 60,636 fans filling to a 96.2 perecent capcity.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/attendance?year=2002

    Hmmm......

    Looks like Indy is right in line with those "hardcore" fanbases. They all filled their stadiums to mid 90's percent capacity. Looks like Indy was right with those hardened fanbases, despite the fact that the Colts were coming off of an awful year and the fact that the Colts were still viewed as being "foreign" in the eyes of many locals.

    Explain to me how Indy is such a fickle fanbase again? Doesn't look that way to me based on the attendnace figures.

    Now, let's compare the Colts attendance in 2007, a year in which they came off of a superbowl, to 2002, the year in which they were coming off of a 6-10 record.

    In 2007, we averaged 57,304 fans, filling to a 95% capacity. Comparing that to the 02 season, it looks like we gained an average of 635 fans a game. Wow. Doesn't seem like a fickle fanbase to me. I mean, 5 straight division titles and all we gain is 635 fans a game? That's roughly a 1 percent or so gain. The Colts also filled the Dome to a higher capacity in 07 than Da Bears did, despite the fact that Chicago has millions and millions of more people than Indy does.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/attendance?year=2007

    Look at that and look at the capacities that many of those teams fill up to. Indy is right there with Chicago, Oakland, Miami, Dallas and Pittsburgh. All of those are supposedly diehard fan bases, yet Indy fills the dome to roughly the same capacity as those teams.

    The Dome has a listed capacity of 57,980. The Indianapolis 9 county region has a population of 1,984,644. So the Dome represents 2.9% of the Indianapolis extended metropolitan population. If Chicago, for example, had a stadium that represented 2.9% of it's population then that stadium would have to seat 275,666(Chicago metro is 9,505,747)! Think that Chitown could fill that up every weekend? I don't think so!

    Soldier Field seats 61,500. The dome seats 57,980. So Soldier Field is about 5% bigger than the Dome. Yet Chicago is oh, about 79% larger than Indianapolis. Not exactly a fair comparison is it?

    Doesn't seem to me that Indy is that bad of a fanbase after all when it comes to the Colts. Indianapolis over the past many seasons has comparable attendance that is right up there with the most classic franchises in the league. And that is with a tiny metro area and an "imposter" team. And what's so bad about having to build a fanbase up? Rome wasn't built in a day. It has taken years for teams like Pitt and Dallas to build up diehard fanbases. Hopefully our superbowl title will be the foundation to a great fanbase.

    You said that it took a couple of ECF runs before people showed up to watch the Pacers. According to my Pacer media guide, it just really took 1....

    In 94-95 we had 24 sellouts and averaged 15,976 fans (MSA capacity 16530, thats 96% capacity) ....

    The same anaylisis can be used with the Pacers. A Knick fan in a chat once bragged to me about how great the Knicks attendance was and was trashing the Pacers. It irritated me because the Knicks have millions and millions of more people to pull from than the Pacers do. There could be less demand for Knicks tickets and you just wouldn't know it because they still have enough demanded to routinely sell out the place. I don't feel like I need to bore you with the same math again, but I think you get the idea that for the Knicks to have a stadium that represented the same % of pop as the Pacers, it would be well into the 100's of thousands(173,290). I doubt that would sell out 41 times a year.....

    It is impossible to compare Indy with places like NY and Chicago on an even keel. Indianapolis has relatively the same sized stadiums yet has millions and millions of less people to pull from. I'm not happy about the Pacers low attendance, because the attendance has certainly been there before, I'm just saying that Indianapolis is one of the smallest markets in professional sports and that must be accounted for when judging the attendance.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 03-13-2008 at 05:14 PM.

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    Tree People to the Core! indygeezer's Avatar
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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    Adam, my hat is off to you. I have been beating that same horse for years. If Indy had the population base of NY then any evaluation would be relevant. But to say we aren't supporting because we draw a few thousand less than they do is ludicrous.

    It is one time I can agree with statisticians.
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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer View Post
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    Adam, my hat is off to you. I have been beating that same horse for years. If Indy had the population base of NY then any evaluation would be relevant. But to say we aren't supporting because we draw a few thousand less than they do is ludicrous.

    It is one time I can agree with statisticians.
    I couldn't agree more. I have been upset about attendance before, but then I realized that it wasn't fair to compare the Pacers to the rest of the league because of population inconsistencies. We can only compare the current Pacer attendance to past Pacer attendance. Indy obviously isn't supporting the team like it used to, but I think that it's just a natural cycle that most sports teams go through.

    I mean, even the fabled Boston Celtics have struggled with attendance in recent years, and they play in the 11th largest metropolitan area in the United States! They also have 16 championships and are without a doubt one of the 2 most classic franchises in the league.

    To add to my point a tad more...

    In 04-05 for example, the Pacers averaged *more* fans than the Celtics did! And the TD Bankworth Garden seats *more* than Conseco does. It seats 18,624, compared to 18,345 of Conseco

    04-05 attendance for the Pacers: A total of 696,764 and average of 16,994
    04-05 attendance for the Celtics: A total of 656,081 and average of 16,001

    91.9% capacity for the Pacers, 81.6% capacity for Boston

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/attendance?year=2005

    Yes, in that year the Pacers averaged *more* fans than the Celtics despite having a slightly smaller stadium and playing in a metro area with 2 million less people. Not to mention the fact that the Celtics are considered to be one of the most classic franchises in sports with their 16 titles, while the Pacers don't even have 1 NBA title.

    So does Boston have a lousy, fickle fanbase as well?
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 03-14-2008 at 03:45 AM.

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    Tree People to the Core! indygeezer's Avatar
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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam1987 View Post
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    I couldn't agree more. I have been upset about attendance before, but then I realized that it wasn't fair to compare the Pacers to the rest of the league because of population inconsistencies. We can only compare the current Pacer attendance to past Pacer attendance. Indy obviously isn't supporting the team like it used to, but I think that it's just a natural cycle that most sports teams go through.

    I mean, even the fabled Boston Celtics have struggled with attendance in recent years, and they play in the 11th largest metropolitan area in the United States! They also have 16 championships and are without a doubt one of the 2 most classic franchises in the league.

    To add to my point a tad more...

    In 04-05 for example, the Pacers averaged *more* fans than the Celtics did! And the TD Bankworth Garden seats *more* than Conseco does. It seats 18,624, compared to 18,345

    04-05 attendance for the Pacers: A total of 696,764 and average of 16,994
    04-05 attendance for the Celtics: A total of 656,081 and average of 16,001

    91.9% capacity for the Pacers, 81.6% capacity for Boston

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/attendance?year=2005

    Yes, in that year the Pacers averaged *more* fans than the Celtics despite having a slightly smaller stadium and playing in a metro area with 2 million less people. Not to mention the fact that the Celtics are considered to be one of the most classic franchises in sports with their 16 titles, while the Pacers don't even have 1 NBA title.

    So does Boston have a lousy, fickle fanbase as well?

    Compared to when Bird et al were there...dern straight!

    Hmmm?? can Bird's impact be equated with Reggie's?

    Can their leaving be equated?
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    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer View Post
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    Compared to when Bird et al were there...dern straight!

    Hmmm?? can Bird's impact be equated with Reggie's?

    Can their leaving be equated?

    Probably.

    Their post Bird years were kind of like our post-Reggie years have been. I'm sure they just wore tired of the Celtics, much as the fanbase here has worn tired of the team

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