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Thread: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer View Post
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    Having been a 40 year employee at one of those places (no, I'm NOT Peck's "mole") I can tell you that image is everything to that company and it would not suprise me...scratch that....It would completely suprise me if they DIDN'T make that demand. Remember this is the company I have seen fire a guy that had a party at his home raided. Then when the Star mentioned that he worked at this company he was fired immediatley...no second chance...gone within minutes of arriving at work, and escorted out by security.
    There is no precedence of this in other cities that I am aware of. I think you have to stick with this for the long haul if you're a corporate sponsor. Portland fans would not be enjoying the team they do today if every corporate supporter had withdrew during the Jail Blazers era.

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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    I've said it before and I'll say it again.......Fair-weather Fans.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again...PERFECT STORM.....(cause and effect)
    If you get to thinkiní youíre a person of some influence, try orderiní somebody elseís dog around..

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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by dcpacersfan View Post
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    There is no precedence of this in other cities that I am aware of. I think you have to stick with this for the long haul if you're a corporate sponsor. Portland fans would not be enjoying the team they do today if every corporate supporter had withdrew during the Jail Blazers era.
    They don't care about precedence...they care about image and where every dollar they spend goes. Believe me...EVERY dollar. THey are the big fish in the pond and they know it.
    If you get to thinkiní youíre a person of some influence, try orderiní somebody elseís dog around..

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    dennaB Twes's Avatar
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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    You know I didn’t grow up here. I have the luxury of neutrality in the IU verses Purdue rivalry in this state. I have just as many friends from one as the other.

    But I wonder if Bill Benner had been in his current role during the Bob Knight years would he have written about how the state should rally around him as he is an asset to the University and community. Come on people you have no clue what it takes to win at the division one basketball university level. Oh no wait, he was trying to make a name for himself as a newsman back then so he spoke his mind.

    I'm sorry I call their bluff on this.

    If they honestly think the fans here are the problem I think they are in for a rude awakening.

    If they think they can find a better place to run an NBA team then let them do it.

    And of course it has to be racially motivated. That’s all we are here in central lndiana - a bunch of redneck racists. If you have any dissatisfaction with the team it’s the fact your racist roots are showing.

    I'm sorry but that's out of line.

    Last edited by Twes; 03-11-2008 at 01:01 PM.

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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    Go, geezer.






    (But you're mistaken about the effect of the plant closings you listed. Those jobs have been replaced with better ones 2-3 times over. Indianapolis has more disposable income now than ever before, both absolutely and proportionately.)

    Putnam. This is not meant to disparage, I would sincerly like to see the data if available. It would geive me a lot of hope for the future if I could see this for myself. I know Rolls is going ganbusters but who else? We can discuss this in PM if you so wish.
    If you get to thinkiní youíre a person of some influence, try orderiní somebody elseís dog around..

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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer View Post
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    They don't care about precedence...they care about image and where every dollar they spend goes. Believe me...EVERY dollar. THey are the big fish in the pond and they know it.
    We can agree to disagree.

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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Twes View Post
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    You know I didnít grow up here. I have the luxury of neutrality in the IU verses Purdue rivalry in this state. I have just as many friends from one as the other.

    But I wonder if Bill Benner had been in his current role during the Bob Knight years would he have written about how the state should rally around him as he is an asset to the University and community. Come on people you have no clue what it takes to win at the division one basketball university level. Oh no wait, he was trying to make a name for himself as a newsman back then so he spoke his mind.

    I'm sorry I call their bluff on this.

    If they honestly think the fans here are the problem I think they are in for a rude awakening.

    If they think they can find a better place to run an NBA team then let them do it.

    And of course it has to be racially motivated. Thatís all we are here in central Indianala - a bunch of redneck racists. If you have any dissatisfaction with the team itís the fact your racist roots are showing.

    I'm sorry but that's out of line.

    I was holding onto the Bob Knight thing...you got in the first punch with that.
    If you get to thinkiní youíre a person of some influence, try orderiní somebody elseís dog around..

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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by dcpacersfan View Post
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    We can agree to disagree.

    agreed



    but I'm right
    If you get to thinkiní youíre a person of some influence, try orderiní somebody elseís dog around..

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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer View Post
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    agreed



    but I'm right
    You can keep thinking that

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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    As someone said: Job loss state wide has a huge effect on where entertainment dollars are spent. I recently heard a well known economist admit that unemployment could be 20% or higher within a year. People are scared to spend their money right now.
    I can watch on TV and save $50 and not get home at midnight. The Pacers would make a nice profit if they only had to pay players who actually played.
    "He wanted to get to that money time. Time when the hardware was on the table. That's when Roger was going to show up. So all we needed to do was stay close"
    Darnell Hillman (Speaking of former teammate Roger Brown)

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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by aceace View Post
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    As someone said: Job loss state wide has a huge effect on where entertainment dollars are spent. I recently heard a well known economist admit that unemployment could be 20% or higher within a year. People are scared to spend their money right now.
    I can watch on TV and save $50 and not get home at midnight. The Pacers would make a nice profit if they only had to pay players who actually played.
    20% - no way - it won't get anywhere near that universe. If an economist actually believes that then that tells me he is not a good economist. (but then don't get me started on how the media reports on the economy).

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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    So it's the fans fault, and were all a bunch of racists? Benner can KMA.

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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    There are times when an article like this would have some merit, but for the Indiana Pacers as of right now, I think this article is way off base. If this were an instance like Peck describes, where fans are staying away just because the Pacers are losing, then this article would have some validity. In realtiy though, the dissonance between the Pacers and its fanbase, is so much greater.

    This reeks purely of spin, IMO, for no other reason then the fact the article is so unbalanced. He glosses over the off-court issues non-chalantly in a few sentences. There have been several instances, with quite a few players...if you throw in Artest and Jackson...in total 5 players with significant issues. It goes beyond the events themselves. The behavior has been repeated, and so far, managment has offered nothing but words. Words only go so far. Especially when the cycle repeats itself with seemingly no end in sight. He way understates this stuff in my opinion.

    The franchise gets ran into the ground, and it's the fan's fault? I am sorry...I am not buying it. There is a gargantuan difference between supporting a team through its ups and downs and enduring what fans of this franchis have been through the last few years. The only possible fair comparison would be Portland...since that is a small market team that has endured similar circumstances. I endured those crappy Colts teams, and supported those crappy teams proudly, but even though they were losing, there wasn't this constant PR nightmare going on.

    Then to take a shot that Indy isn't a great sports town. It is like trying to rub the fan's noses in it, for a pile they didn't make. I don't think that is fair.

    I don't see Indy as a bad sports town. The reality is that it is a small market sports town, and because of that, it is going to be more susceptible to swings regarding poor PR or the local economy. You have both of those going on right now. There is alot that people have to think about. If you have limited income...do you pay for the Colts or the Pacers? What if you can't afford both? Who would you rather take your kid to see?

    I debated whether to type this, but the other thing I don't like that he slid in there was the race related comment. The Pacer players that are currently vilified by the fan base are viewed this way because of their actions. There unfortunately are always going to be some racist individuals who are going to incorporate their skewed views when appraising a person. I think, and hope that contingency makes up a small portion of the fans who are currenlty disenfranchised with this team. BTW...I am being totally serious here...is thug really a racist code word...or is the connotation of using that word to describe a few Pacer players the racism that Benner is alluding to? I am assuming it is the latter...but maybe I am getting old and language refrences have changed.
    When you're playing against a stacked deck, compete even harder. Show the world how much you'll fight for the winners circle. If you do, someday the cellophane will crackle off a fresh pack, one that belongs to you, and the cards will be stacked in your favor.
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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    For me, the issue isn't the Colts (bless their success, all the same) nor is it about the kind of town Indy is or isn't. Anyone can write a blog that says Indy is out-of-line. It's a cheap shot. Look, a pair of seats in the lower bowl -- Section 5 -- cost about $12,000. I'm tired of spending that kind of money for below average entertainment. I'm also ticked that Circle City is selling the seats on either side of me for less than half what I've paid. I've given up hope because management has promised improvements for several years but hasn't delivered. Why should I believe them any longer? For me, the issue is the product. I don't enjoy watching players that wouldn't start on any playoff bound team chuck 3's and then after no rebound, run back to watch the other team score. I'm tired of depending upon players who miss huge numbers of games, not just one season but year-after-year. I'm also tired of people like Brenner telling me that I'm a 'bad fan' because I'm unhappy. The bottom line is this. The 'product' is not entertaining and it's not fun to watch. It's really that simple. Until it is, Indy nor any other community is going to spend real money to go to the games. Go Butler! Go IU! Go Purdue!

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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    I am a diehard, thick and thin Pacers fan, who loved them before the good times. It pains me to see what's going on, and I still tune in every opportunity I can. I root for the team, more than the players. But I don't fault those who stay away due to the poor product on the floor. It's your money; do with it what you will. The fact of the matter is that there are fair weather fans in every sports city, not just Indianapolis. The thing I hate is that we have a tendency to color the whole by the actions of a few parts. Dunleavy, Granger, Diener, Murphy, JO, Graham, Rush, Foster, Owens, Flip, these guys have done nothing wrong, and yet they're the ones being punished. They have to play in a half-dead arena, and listen to the "thug" talk every day. You think it's hard for them to perform? In any event, there are some fans who will be there until the end, who are willing to see this through. So, it's not fair to label everyone fairweather.

    Benner makes some valid points, but overall his article conveniently leaves out the legal aspects. When you look at teams like the Packers, where that's the only game in town, you're more likely to have the loyalty, no matter what. But when you have other alternatives competing for your entertainment value, people aren't going to just show up. The fan reaction has more to do with offcourt mayhem, rather than oncourt issues. Murderers? Rapists? Strippers? Car chases, complete with shootouts? Is this Lethal Weapon 5? Where are Riggs and Murtaugh?
    Last edited by QuickRelease; 03-11-2008 at 01:49 PM.

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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    I usually hate whenever anyone uses the race card - but if you don't think race is an issue in the way people feel about the NBA in this city - then you haven't lived here very long. Indianapolis has never been an NBA city, sure they were a pacers city for a few years, but this city has never "bought into" the NBA - and yes race is an issue in that.

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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    If the Simons do sell after such a short down tick, that would trouble me anyway.
    I suspect (and remember, I'm one of the prime Team Sale Chicken Littles here) that the need to sell the team would have little to do with the down tick and more to do with the combination of losses, age, and health. If the Simons weren't willing to stick with the team just due to attendance and money issues, they'd have sold it long before '94. After 25 years, though, they might be figuring it's time to move on. Unfortunately, that's coinciding with more and more bad ******.
    BillS

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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer View Post
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    Putnam. This is not meant to disparage, I would sincerly like to see the data if available. It would geive me a lot of hope for the future if I could see this for myself. I know Rolls is going ganbusters but who else? We can discuss this in PM if you so wish.

    I understand why you would paint the picture that part of the issue is financial...but I don't think that is it.

    Think about this: Michigan has the highest unemployment rate in the country but the Pistons are still the leaders in NBA attendance.

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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I usually hate whenever anyone uses the race card - but if you don't think race is an issue in the way people feel about the NBA in this city - then you haven't lived here very long. Indianapolis has never been an NBA city, sure they were a pacers city for a few years, but this city has never "bought into" the NBA - and yes race is an issue in that.
    I couldn't disagree with you more.

    I agree a lot of people are sick to death of the NBA. But it has more to do with one on one basketball and players that make too much money to be coached than race.

    It has to do with NBA players getting spanked in world competition.

    This whole image of players can do no wrong is garbage.

    I couldn't care less what race or hairstyle or how many tattoo’s a guy has. It's insulting to me to paint everyone with that brush.

    If ratings were based on race the NFL would be in the tank and we all know that isn't true.

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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I usually hate whenever anyone uses the race card - but if you don't think race is an issue in the way people feel about the NBA in this city - then you haven't lived here very long. Indianapolis has never been an NBA city, sure they were a pacers city for a few years, but this city has never "bought into" the NBA - and yes race is an issue in that.
    There is an element of race in many things, but I think the main thing is that pro basketball arrived on the scene much later in Indiana than its storied college and high school programs.

    Charlotte, which plays in a college basketball rich state, has pretty much the same issues regarding the NBA and the league has really struggled to establish itself there. In the grand scheme of things, the Pacers have done a good job entrenching themselves in a market for that that's inherently hard to crack.
    Last edited by d_c; 03-11-2008 at 02:06 PM.

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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I usually hate whenever anyone uses the race card - but if you don't think race is an issue in the way people feel about the NBA in this city - then you haven't lived here very long. Indianapolis has never been an NBA city, sure they were a pacers city for a few years, but this city has never "bought into" the NBA - and yes race is an issue in that.
    We have to remember that here on PD we've beaten the discussion into the ground about whether "thug" is or is not being racially linked. The IBJ doesn't have the benefit of that ... er ... discussion.

    Interestingly enough, I just finished a new book about the history of the Cosa Nostra in Sicily, and the word "thug" is used constantly. While that proves nothing about the use of a word in pop culture, it certainly means that at least to some people it isn't necessarily racial.
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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Twes View Post
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    I couldn't disagree with you more.
    It has to do with NBA players getting spanked in world competition.
    Just because Team USA can't win every single time like it used to hardly means its "getting spanked". Third place at the Olympics and World Championships isn't getting spanked. That's a damn good finish in the grand scheme of things. (We'd be getting spanked now if we sent college kids. They wouldn't have much of a chance)

    What happened to Serbia, the 2002 World Champion that knocked off the US team? They've pretty much stunk ever since. 11th at the 2004 Olympics, 9th at Eurobasket in 2005, 11th at the World Championships in 2006 and 14th at Eurobasket in 2007. How come everyone prefers to talk about the US now getting spanked with 3rd place finishes but don't say anything about Serbia, which used to be a Euro basketball power, completely falling off the map?

    Saying the US gets spanked in basketball is like saying Brazil or Italy get spanked in soccer because they don't win every year.

  23. #48

    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    Maybe the problem is only the losing. Or not.
    Maybe the people in Indy are fair-weather fans. Or not.
    Maybe the off-court shenanigans have alienated true fans. Or not.
    Maybe we are all a buch of bigots. Or not.
    Maybe we're all so poor none of us can afford to put gas in our SUVs. Or not.

    The debate continues as to the exact balance of cause and effect leading to the current Pacers crisis.

    But!


    Should the Pacers organization and their tame writers at the Star and IBJ be spending time justifying themselves? Or should they be doing everything they can to plug all the leaks?

    If I were TPTB, I would not be happy about Benner's article. I'd say,

    "Bill, the people think we are taking them for granted and resting on our laurels. Your bit about the long-gone glory of the Pacers is the last thing we needed. We are a sick organization right now exactly because we fail by comparison to our own past.

    Your criticism of the fans, who unlike you actually pay to watch Pacers games, is the last thing we needed. We want to woo those people -- not anger them.

    Inviting comparison with the Colts is the last thing we needed.

    The people of this community think we care too little about the character of our players, so the last thing we needed was you downpeddling the significance of multiple felony charges and associations with an alleged rape and an alleged murder. They read the papers."



    PS&E need to plug the leaks, not argue who caused them. We can waste our time on this forum arguing which cause is more significant in explaining the decline in play and attendance. But TPTB need to take action, and the action is the same whatever the cause.
    Last edited by Putnam; 03-11-2008 at 08:21 PM.
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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer View Post
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    So is the legal trouble, the losses, the image of youngsters straight out of high school making more money than my family combined will earn in 3 lifetimes, so is the loss of jobs at

    Ft Ben
    Ford
    GM
    Chrysler Foundry
    Western Electric (long ago admitedly)
    Jenn-Aire

    plus now the insecurity of those that do have jobs. It is a perfect storm of facts that have led to this. But to blame it on the "fickleness" of the average fan earns a great big FU from Indygeezer. I have the right to determine where my entertainment dollars go. I do not pay my money to see a bad movie just because Sandra Bullock is in it, and I will not allow anybody to degrenate me because I don't choose to spend my money supporting something that has become so detached from what I value. I AM spending money to go see good basketball at Hinkle tonight. That is a value judgement, I get more entertainment for my dollars there.
    So for some HACK to write that I owe it to the Pacers to spend my few entertainment bucks on them is extremely hypocritical IMPO. The author, afterall is hardly impartial....his brother is associated with the Pacers PR department.

    EDIT: I agree with Peck 100%. I will always love the Pacers but I make value judgements too.
    Geez,

    I don't think the issue in question is any fan's right to spend their money wherever they please. It's a matter of why fans won't come out and support the Pacers even when TPTB are doing everything they can within the guidelines of the CBA while working within a small market to put the best product on the floor they possibly can within the "demands" of the fanbase.

    I do recognize that in today's trying economy it's tough. When the choice is, "Do I spend $35 on gas to get to work or do I spend it on a bag of groceries to feed my family?", you know hard times are a-knockin'! But that still shouldn't keep even the casual fan from attending at least one game all season long even if it's the cost of a $10/20 ticket in the cheat seats waaaaaaay up in the nose bleed section.

    The truth of the matter is the group that has taken up the hardwood has tried hard. Yes, I'm disappointed that they aren't winning, but I see this team for who they are: young and inexperienced. I knew that coming into the season and didn't expect that they'd take the NBA by storm. However, I didn't expect that they'd have all the off-court problems they've had this year either. So, I understand why the local (casual) fan is staying away; it's a form of protest moreso for the character of the players rather than the performance on the floor. But here's the rub...

    The local fans have merged the two and instead of staying away because of the failings of a few they're also staying away because the team isn't winning! The later makes the local fanbase "fair weather fans". A true fan would attend games regardless of their record. But I do understand that most have equated their losing with the poor character (players) and don't want to support a team where as they see it the players are continuously getting into trouble. But that's where the misconception comes in. It's not every player who's gotten into trouble (2 incidents in recent months from the group who have taken the court for the majority of the season), and if you really take a look at the calender it was nearly 5 months before anyone had any off-court issues that involved the police. So, if you (the local fans) are staying away just because of the questionable character issues, where were you between September 2007 and February 2008?

    Truth is your absence is a duality: you're staying away because of the team's off-court troubles and you're staying away because of their losing record, this despite the fact that the group who has represented the Pacers for the better part of the season has tried very hard and has performed fairly well, just not well enough to win more games than they've loss. The majority of local Pacers fans are fickled, they are fair-weathered. If the Pacers were winning and had these types of hardships (off-court issues), you'd still come out to see them. But because they're losing on the heals of all these hardships you're staying away under the banner of "the product on the floor". Well, except for 2 minor incidents, the players who arguably could be labeled "thugs" have either been traded or is on the IL. Except for Williams and Harrison, everyone else have been model citizens. So, aside from their record, why do you continue to stay away?
    Last edited by NuffSaid; 03-11-2008 at 02:15 PM.

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    Default Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by d_c View Post
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    Just because Team USA can't win every single time like it used to hardly means its "getting spanked". Third place at the Olympics and World Championships isn't getting spanked. That's a damn good finish in the grand scheme of things. (We'd be getting spanked now if we sent college kids. They wouldn't have much of a chance)

    What happened to Serbia, the 2002 World Champion that knocked off the US team? They've pretty much stunk ever since. 11th at the 2004 Olympics, 9th at Eurobasket in 2005, 11th at the World Championships in 2006 and 14th at Eurobasket in 2007. How come everyone prefers to talk about the US now getting spanked with 3rd place finishes but don't say anything about Serbia, which used to be a Euro basketball power, completely falling off the map?

    Saying the US gets spanked in basketball is like saying Brazil or Italy get spanked in soccer because they don't win every year.
    Because the USA guys make hundreds of millions of dollars and like to call themselves the best in the world.

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