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  1. #1
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Vote of confidence: The Simons

    Ok, were going to bring it all home right here with this vote. It goes no higher than this.

    As with Walsh all I ask is that if you wish to use past performance as future indicators then please keep it to actual accomplishments and not "give them a pass" or "throw them under the bus" because they did or did not do whatever.

    Examples:

    The Pacers were going to hell in a handbasket and we were weeks away from moving the team but the civic minded Simons stepped in and saved our franchise and for that I will always give them a pass.

    or

    The Simons were so concerned with the bottom line that they would not allow Donnie Walsh to re-sign Brad Miller because it would have put them over the cap and thus destroyed what could have been our best front court ever and for that I will never forgive them.

    Both of the above are legitimate complaints or compliments but neither are appropriate for this.

    The question is simple.

    Do you believe that the Simons can lead our franchise out of the problems that they are in?

    Of course even this question is open to a lot of play because depending on what you view the job of an owner is. I'll let you decide that for yourself.

    Also I think it's safe to say that Herb is THE operating owner at this point although we have heard that David Simons either has taken over a lot of the day to day or soon will.

    Vote now please.

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    Default Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

    no

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    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

    I have no doubt! Yes!

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    Default Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

    No

    The Simons are not basketball people. They depend too much on others to make the right decisions about the franchise. They have relied on Donnie far too much and are afraid to change completely because they don't want to leave their comfort zone.

    Indicisiveness=no confidence.

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    Default Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

    Quote Originally Posted by hoopsforlife View Post
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    No

    The Simons are not basketball people. They depend too much on others to make the right decisions about the franchise. They have relied on Donnie far too much and are afraid to change completely because they don't want to leave their comfort zone.

    Indicisiveness=no confidence.
    I typed a bunch of words when I could've just gave this post an

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    Default Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

    Without the Simons, there is no Pacers, so confidence or not, we should be thankful that they stepped up to the plate in the first place.

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    Default Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    The Pacers were going to hell in a handbasket and we were weeks away from moving the team but the civic minded Simons stepped in and saved our franchise and for that I will always give them a pass.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elgin56 View Post
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    Without the Simons, there is no Pacers, so confidence or not, we should be thankful that they stepped up to the plate in the first place.
    What else can I say?

    While there are alternatives to Donnie and Larry, I don't think there are any alternatives in Indiana to Mel and Herb. It may be due to a PTSD-type reaction, but I deeply fear anything involving the sale of the Pacers.
    BillS

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  8. #8
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

    Nope. They are in the true "the buck stops here" position. Everyone we've complained about is under them.

    They are fiddling while Conseco burns...

    I'm curious how well respected the Simons and Walsh really are in the league offices. We used to hear all the time how well respected our organization was (of course we heard it from the likes of our local press when they were soley the PR arm of the Pacers).... Then 11/19 happened and all that respect didn't amount to anything. ...No benefit of the doubt for the Pacers. The Pacers got all the 11/19 blame and the Pistons skated as if they were the victims without any blame.

    As an aside: I always thought there were two ways to handle the brawl from the Pacers' POV. TPTB found a 3rd one.

    The first one would've been to hand out serious suspensions/punishments before the league had a chance to act. Get out in the lead on it and grab he bull by the horns. .... But....Always making it clear we didn't believe we're totally to blame but that we only have the power to address our own players. Then, since we've already punished our players, try and get Stern to take a few days before making his decision on the Pacers and try and convince him not to make a death knell punishment out of it and let our punishments stand.

    Orrrrrr.... vehemently stand up for the team and franchise and while accepting some blame, attack the punishments as being too unfair and too one-sided, play the martyr card, and then put PR (and legal) pressure on the league to reassess the penalties. ...And challenge them in public for trying to throw the Pacers under the bus when the problem was bigger than that.

    Instead, we chose the silent, half-***, tail-between our legs method. We let the media come around to dumping on the Pacers alone. We took no actions to see to it this wouldn't be tolerated of our own players again. We let 'the system' play out and let the league take the lead on this. Then we accepted it like a whipped pup. Maybe we did some things behind the scenes, maybe not. Obviously they weren't very effective if we did. ... And behind the scenes was never going to have any effect on public opinion.

    In the end we didn't stand up for our players, fans, or franchise, nor did we hit the problem head on and dole out our own punishments and show the fans and league we stand for something better in Pacerland.



    -Bball
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Do you believe that the Simons can lead our franchise out of the problems that they are in?
    Yeah. I want them to stay in possession of the team. They are good guys. They are civic minded. And they've got more tin than anybody else in Indianapolis, don't they?

    The Simons have done what owners ought to do: put somebody they trust in charge, give them the keys and stand back. They've shown in the past that they are willing to spend money. Two seasons ago, the Pacers had the 4th or 5th highest payroll in the NBA.

    Their fault is they've been too patient, too trusting for the past couple of years. I think they need to appoint some new top management and crack the whip a little. I say "Yes" because I believe they are capable of doing that effectively and that they will do it as soon as Donnie steps down.
    Last edited by Putnam; 03-04-2008 at 08:13 AM.
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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    Yeah. I want them to stay in possession of the team. They are good guys. They are civic minded. And they've got more tin than anybody else in Indianapolis, don't they?

    The Simons have done what owners ought to do: put somebody they trust in charge, give them the keys and stand back. They've shown in the past that they are willing to spend money. Two seasons ago, the Pacers had the 4th or 5th highest payroll in the NBA.

    Their fault is they've been too patient, too trusting for the past couple of years. I think they need to appoint some new top management and crack the whip a little. I say "Yes" because I believe they are capable of doing that effectively and that they will do it as soon as Donnie steps down.
    This is how I feel, though I honestly think with both the Simons and Donnie that the last few years just got out of hand out of nowhere. Prior to 11/19 TPTB were brilliant. Best regular season ever, nearly home court for the Finals, all the core guys locked up long term, decent payroll but not breaking their backs to the point of having to punt...heck, they were putting a beating on the Pistons until less than two minutes left in the Palace and then....

    Since then, despite what a lot of you guys say about "it was obvious", not one f-bomb thing from then on was obvious. Most of the stuff they've had to respond to was unprecedented, they couldn't deal with the brawl thing the way Cuban had, or Jerry West once did or any other GM/Owner. Brand new problems were coming at them left and right.

    Tins had no history of injury till they were in it. Year 1 you think it's a fluke. Year two and it's bad luck. Then you start to have concerns, but then every other GM/Owner has the same thoughts you do. The same with JO. The same with Jackson and Ron as well. I didn't hear one Pacers fan saying "just wait to Tins/Jackson are at a club brawl, it's bound to happen". People like to align with that thinking now, but it's 100% 20/20.

    Even Ron's trade request was a shocker, even if his method was becoming familiar. Fans LOVED him at FanJam that year, loved him. They weren't muttering "get him out before he wants a trade". And even then, this wasn't more flagrants, or a police issue or any type of violence. It was actually pretty mundane business posturing IMO.

    So how does an owner deal with that before it happens?

    My point is that a lot of this stuff has built slowly. It's not some massive one time, gotta respond thing, it's death by pinching. I think this year was the final straw, and frankly they were already responding BY YOUR REQUESTS last year.

    The reason they have a horrible payroll situation and no playoff hopes is very specifically tied to that GS trade, which in part was first started by going after Harrington to help improve the "good guy" team image. The Al flopped (which some did see coming), so they panicked and tried to appease fans a 2nd time with the GS deal.

    So IMO the Simons COULD turn this around with Donnie, if only they would stop listening to the fans and just return to a normal steady adjustment program instead of 2nd guessing themselves and wondering how they couldn't see this coming.

    If they have a fault it's that the 3 of them appear to have a rather poor "handoff" plan at both GM and ownership. This rather weak plan is unfortunately coinciding with a point when the team most needs clear, singular, EXPERIENCED vision.


    PS -
    You know for all you "ticking time bomb" types, what exactly has Jackson done since hitting GS? Still waiting on him to ruin that franchise with his awful chemistry problems and poor decisions. Just give it a few seasons, he's not as efficient as Murphleavy.

    Fans, what team can't they run perfectly?



    Team moving - I hate to say it but reading Bill Simmons stuff on the Seattle situation and the emails he's getting its both scary and depressing to think about how ugly the currently unthinkable could get.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 03-04-2008 at 06:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

    A tepid yes.

    They've been overly loyal to DW and that's a mistake right now IMO. OTOH they've been very loyal to Indy - maybe overly so there too. Plus they don't interfere too much with basketball decisions - they know they build malls and shopping centers, not basketball teams.

    And if you're going to be "overly" something I'd prefer people who are overly loyal to people who are overly fickle.

    Unless you're Jim Dolan who I wish would just haul Isiah off to an island somewhere and make him his butt-monkey already.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

  12. #12
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick View Post
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    A tepid yes.

    They've been overly loyal to DW and that's a mistake right now IMO. OTOH they've been very loyal to Indy - maybe overly so there too. Plus they don't interfere too much with basketball decisions - they know they build malls and shopping centers, not basketball teams.

    And if you're going to be "overly" something I'd prefer people who are overly loyal to people who are overly fickle.

    Unless you're Jim Dolan who I wish would just haul Isiah off to an island somewhere and make him his butt-monkey already.
    While I understand everyone willing to fall on their swords for the Simons you have to ask how far will they let the team sink before taking action... or will they let it sink so far that they reach a point where they think the only thing left to do is move or sell the franchise to another city?

    As I've said, if the Simons think this team is being operated properly, and if things don't change (which so far they haven't been), then how can they believe anything other than Indy won't support NBA basketball any longer? They can blame the city government... blame the loss of control of the local media... blame the resurgence of IU and Purdue (along with recent Butler successes)... blame the city and state's love affair with the Colts and growing reputation as an NFL town... the loss of interest in basketball at the grassroots level since the inception of class basketball.... etc...

    There's just a lot of places they can put the blame if they don't want to look into the mirror.

    As said in this thread, the Simons aren't basketball people. They don't appear to have the overwhelming desire to see this team win a championship which has allowed the team to operate with the bar too low for too many years. It's an angle of this whole thing that has allowed Walsh to stay on as long as he has.

    Just as it's hard for many players to step away from the game even after it's passed them by, I'm sure it's hard for Walsh. Particularly when the media and fans have given him a pass for so long based on his moves 15-20 years ago.

    But how long can you keep giving all these people a pass for being loyal to each other? At what point does someone have to start thinking about being loyal to the fans and city... or even loyal to the NBA and not allowing a franchise to flounder like this and lose fans right and left?

    If the people you've hired to operate the team can't fix it, won't fix it, or move so slow via bad moves and no moves that things are snowballing, how long can you sit back and watch before needing to step in the forefront and make a bold move before it's too late?

    I think the Simons have allowed a snowball to start building whose end result will be the Pacers leaving Indianapolis. Something has to change to stop that snowball.

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

    Yes

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    Default Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

    The bottom line is wihtout the Simons the Pacers would have left Indiana 25 years ago

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    Default Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

    Why would anyone vote "no" here? No person is infallible, but the Simons deserve the city's thanks on so many levels. they single handedly believed that Indianapolis could turn itself around, and dedicated themselves to that idea for decades.

    The city is such a different place than it used to be. It is so much better. So the Pacers have gone downhill for a few seasons. Big deal. The bigger picture is that the city owes the Simons its thanks 1000 times over.

    I say again that what we've gone through is not much different than what the Blazers and Bulls have gone through and are still going through.

    Recovery is just around the corner, but not if you run the only people who thought your city deserved it's first major sport pro team straight out of town.

    Criticism is fine, but getting some perspective is needed here.
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

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    Fear my small avatar Gyron's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post
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    Why would anyone vote "no" here? No person is infallible, but the Simons deserve the city's thanks on so many levels. they single handedly believed that Indianapolis could turn itself around, and dedicated themselves to that idea for decades.

    The city is such a different place than it used to be. It is so much better. So the Pacers have gone downhill for a few seasons. Big deal. The bigger picture is that the city owes the Simons its thanks 1000 times over.

    I say again that what we've gone through is not much different than what the Blazers and Bulls have gone through and are still going through.

    Recovery is just around the corner, but not if you run the only people who thought your city deserved it's first major sport pro team straight out of town.

    Criticism is fine, but getting some perspective is needed here.
    100% Agree.

    Yes They are the owners for this team. They made mistakes, but they can turn them around with the right decisions.

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    Default Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    or

    The Simons were so concerned with the bottom line that they would not allow Donnie Walsh to re-sign Brad Miller because it would have put them over the cap and thus destroyed what could have been our best front court ever and for that I will never forgive them.

    Both of the above are legitimate complaints or compliments but neither are appropriate for this.
    Actually, this one is not legitimate. I'll talk to you later.

    The question is simple.

    Do you believe that the Simons can lead our franchise out of the problems that they are in?

    Of course even this question is open to a lot of play because depending on what you view the job of an owner is. I'll let you decide that for yourself.

    Also I think it's safe to say that Herb is THE operating owner at this point although we have heard that David Simons either has taken over a lot of the day to day or soon will.

    Vote now please.
    I think the Simons only get heavily involved if: The luxury tax is in play (doesn't mean they won't pay, just that they need to be convinced it's worth it) or they adamantly disagree with a decision trying to be made by Walsh/Bird.

    Considering that view point, along with the fact that they kept the Pacers around, have been willing to let us be one of the biggest spenders in the NBA when we were contending 4 years ago, and everything Los Angeles said, I can only say yes, I have a lot of confidence in Mel/Herb Simon.

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    Default Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

    Peck, I believe if Walsh and or Bird had gone to the Simons and said that Brad Miller was needed and the price to keep him was worth it - the Simons would have paid the luxury tax to keep him.

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    Default Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

    Herb and Mel? YES!!



    I do worry that the family might become involved someday and how that would impact the franchise.
    If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

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    Default Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

    Well I see that we are not interested in playing by the rules here.

    Yes yes we all know the Simons saved the city there is no doubting that, however that does not answer the question of can they get us out of this mess currently.

    Also Hicks, I know about the whole Brad thing. I just used that as an example. Remember I was the one who canceled my tickets until I actually heard Herb say he would have paid the luxuary tax if Donnie thought he should have.

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    Default Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Well I see that we are not interested in playing by the rules here.

    Yes yes we all know the Simons saved the city there is no doubting that, however that does not answer the question of can they get us out of this mess currently.

    Also Hicks, I know about the whole Brad thing. I just used that as an example. Remember I was the one who canceled my tickets until I actually heard Herb say he would have paid the luxuary tax if Donnie thought he should have.
    I'm trying to stick to the rules....

    The Simons can only get us out of this mess now by doing something much differently than they've done in the past. I don't have a high level of confidence that they're willing to do that. IF they continue to hand out votes of confidence to those below them, then we're in trouble. Past history says they will continue to allow those under them to run the franchise in the wrong direction.

    It's not been that long ago that one of the Simons was quoted as saying he didn't want to own a team that didn't involve Donnie Walsh (or something similar to that). That's just not a comforting feeling that we're about to rearrange the team goals, develop a new vision for the franchise, and become a player in the 21st century NBA.

    -Bball
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    Default Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I'm trying to stick to the rules....

    The Simons can only get us out of this mess now by doing something much differently than they've done in the past. I don't have a high level of confidence that they're willing to do that. IF they continue to hand out votes of confidence to those below them, then we're in trouble. Past history says they will continue to allow those under them to run the franchise in the wrong direction.

    It's not been that long ago that one of the Simons was quoted as saying he didn't want to own a team that didn't involve Donnie Walsh (or something similar to that). That's just not a comforting feeling that we're about to rearrange the team goals, develop a new vision for the franchise, and become a player in the 21st century NBA.

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    Default Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Well I see that we are not interested in playing by the rules here.

    Yes yes we all know the Simons saved the city there is no doubting that, however that does not answer the question of can they get us out of this mess currently.

    Also Hicks, I know about the whole Brad thing. I just used that as an example. Remember I was the one who canceled my tickets until I actually heard Herb say he would have paid the luxuary tax if Donnie thought he should have.
    I guess I didn't answer your question - yes they can get us out of this mess -If they don't, and sell the team it will be moved.

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    Default Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

    I am confident that they want whats best for the team and the city. I am not 100% sure they know how to do that. That is where management comes in and ownership leaves.

    I would rather have them, then a Cuban. At some point you have to let the people do their job, and the Simons allow that.

    So I say yes. Their past experience has shown this.

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    Default Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

    Uncle Buck

    I have to disagree with you on one point.

    If the Simon's sell the team I'm pretty sure they will make sure it remains in Indy.

    I don't see the Simon's stabbing this city in the back like that. Not after all they have done for Indy.

    I'll stick my answer to Peck's question too.

    I don't think the Simons have it in them to turn this thing around. Its not in their MO. They would have to take some bold steps & let some people go. Walsh might go on his own, Bird will have to be pushed & I don't see any of the Simon's doing that.

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