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Thread: Why don't Pacers follow their shot?

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    Member Swingman's Avatar
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    Default Why don't Pacers follow their shot?

    I don't often get to watch Pacers games but did last night. I noticed that almost after every shot, it seemed the Pacers were already heading back to play defense instead of going for the offensive rebound.

    Instead of following their shot, shooters would run down the court to play defense. Maybe this was just due to being a back to back and being tired but thought it was odd.

    It didn't happen every time as I know I saw Williams go after his miss but get blocked out.

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    Default Re: Why don't Pacers follow their shot?

    That has been a big complaint of mine for years. It's not just the Pacers. I think a lot of teams fair to do it. I'm actually shocked when I see someone follow a shot.

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    Default Re: Why don't Pacers follow their shot?

    Their defender runs out for a fast break...they need to get back to defend.

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    Default Re: Why don't Pacers follow their shot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swingman View Post
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    I don't often get to watch Pacers games but did last night. I noticed that almost after every shot, it seemed the Pacers were already heading back to play defense instead of going for the offensive rebound.

    Instead of following their shot, shooters would run down the court to play defense. Maybe this was just due to being a back to back and being tired but thought it was odd.

    It didn't happen every time as I know I saw Williams go after his miss but get blocked out.
    Following your own shot is the most overrated thing in basketball.

    Your chances of getting an offensive rebound vs your chances of getting burned by a cherry-picking opponent are terrible.

    The risk only goes up the higher up you go, because the players get faster and more athletic.

    Perimeter players should never follow their own shots, unless as a last resort.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Why don't Pacers follow their shot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Following your own shot is the most overrated thing in basketball.

    Your chances of getting an offensive rebound vs your chances of getting burned by a cherry-picking opponent are terrible.

    The risk only goes up the higher up you go, because the players get faster and more athletic.

    Perimeter players should never follow their own shots, unless as a last resort.
    However the shooter usually has the best idea of where the rebound will go. If that's anywhere close to where he shot it, then he has the best chance of getting it because he can act faster.

    Not everyone needs to get back right away. The shooter isn't the only perimeter player so the other 2 players can follow any cherry pickers down the court.

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    It Might Be a Soft J JayRedd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why don't Pacers follow their shot?

    I agree with Kstat.

    "Follow your shot" from anywhere outside 10 feet is a low percentage gamble that will only most likely end up with numbers going the other way. Sure it looks stupid on the two plays per game where the ball hits the front rim and comes straight back to open space, but it looks a lot stupider to give 30 fast break points.

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    Default Re: Why don't Pacers follow their shot?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    I agree with Kstat.

    "Follow your shot" from anywhere outside 10 feet is a low percentage gamble that will only most likely end up with numbers going the other way. Sure it looks stupid on the two plays per game where the ball hits the front rim and comes straight back to open space, but it looks a lot stupider to give 30 fast break points.
    There's 5 players on the team, it's not like the shooter is the only one that can defend a fast break.

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    Default Re: Why don't Pacers follow their shot?

    Guards need to get back, IMO. Especially at this level.

    If a PF wants to follow his long jumpers than fine. But Gilbert Arenas and Kobe should be rotating back and following the other guard that has already recognized the jumper and rotated back to balance the floor.

    In most NBA offenses, there is a guy in the corner who won't be able to get back quickly enough to stop a break and neither will the one or two bigs that should be below the foul line. Opposing guards are too quick at this level to expect anyone from free-throw line extended to have any impact on a developing break. Seriously, if a guy like Lebron gets a slight edge, you have like two dribbles before you have no chance.

    So guards need to stay back, mostly, IMO. On occasion, when you know it's off, sure, crash the boards. But as a philosophy, it's a low percentage strategy for perimeter players.

    Like I said, inside 10-12 feet, sure...go for the follow-up. And then it's the 3-man's responsibility to rotate back and help the PG or SG stop the break, depending on who took the interior jumper. But if you're shooting a longer jump shot (which is when you most hear people -- and coaches I might add -- say "Follow your shot!") the better play, IMO, is to start rotating back because you're probably not getting that board anyway.
    Last edited by JayRedd; 02-24-2008 at 06:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Why don't Pacers follow their shot?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    Guards need to get back, IMO. Especially at this level.

    If a PF wants to follow his long jumpers than fine. But Gilbert Arenas and Kobe should be rotating back and following the other guard that has already recognized the jumper and rotated back to balance the floor.

    In most NBA offenses, there is a guy in the corner who won't be able to get back quickly enough to stop a break and neither will the one or two bigs that should be below the foul line.

    Guards need to stay back, mostly. On occasion, when you know it's off, sure, crash the boards. But as a philosophy, it's a low percentage strategy for perimeter players.

    Like I said, inside 10-12 feet, sure...go for the follow-up. But if you're shooting a longer jump shot (which is when you most hear people -- and coaches I might add -- say "Follow your shot!") the better play, IMO, is to start rotating back.
    That's still assuming the other team is sending 2 players down the court for the fast break, which often was not the case last night. if they're going after the defensive rebound, then there's no problem staying and going after the offensive rebound.

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    Default Re: Why don't Pacers follow their shot?

    I think I'd prefer the shooter to follow his shot, and the better rebounder of your 4/5 to go for the offensive board, and send the other 3 back.

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    Default Re: Why don't Pacers follow their shot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swingman View Post
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    That's still assuming the other team is sending 2 players down the court for the fast break, which often was not the case last night.
    It's called a scouting report.

    If word gets out that you're going to chase down your own missed 20-footers, your man is going to leak down the floor every time you raise up.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Why don't Pacers follow their shot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    It's called a scouting report.

    If word gets out that you're going to chase down your own missed 20-footers, your man is going to leak down the floor every time you raise up.
    And if your man isn't leaking down the floor (as was the case last night) then you can go after your shot. And as I already stated, the shooter isn't the only person capable of going back to stop a fast break.

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    Default Re: Why don't Pacers follow their shot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swingman View Post
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    And if your man isn't leaking down the floor (as was the case last night) then you can go after your shot.
    ...and if you do that, it's on the scouting report inside of a week, and you get exploited. Shoot, you might get exploited after halftime.

    You can't look behind you to see where your man is when you follow your own shot. The second you go, he leaks out. That's how it works.

    Heck, it doesn't even have to be a coaching adjustment. A lot of NBA guards will just see their man crashing the glass and take off on their own.

    This is why NBA guards do not follow their own shots very often. It gets you pulled.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Why don't Pacers follow their shot?

    I'd say the years and years of many NBA coaches instucting not to do this would be evidence enough. These players are just too athletic, too fast and too experienced to do this on a consistent basis.

    Once a game because a player has great know-how about his shot? Sure. A late-game situation? Of course. Every time? Silly.

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    It Might Be a Soft J JayRedd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why don't Pacers follow their shot?

    paging Dr. Thunderbird...

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    Default Re: Why don't Pacers follow their shot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    ...and if you do that, it's on the scouting report inside of a week, and you get exploited. Shoot, you might get exploited after halftime.

    You can't look behind you to see where your man is when you follow your own shot. The second you go, he leaks out. That's how it works.

    Heck, it doesn't even have to be a coaching adjustment. A lot of NBA guards will just see their man crashing the glass and take off on their own.

    This is why NBA guards do not follow their own shots very often. It gets you pulled.
    And since there's 5 players on a team, you can have someone else cover the fast break. Plus, if you're going after the ball and don't get it, you can still pressure the ball to delay a pass up the court enough for the rest of the team to recover.

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    Default Re: Why don't Pacers follow their shot?

    By the way, the Pacers rank 26th in offensive rebounding and 1st in defensive rebounding (4th overall).
    Last edited by Swingman; 02-24-2008 at 11:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Why don't Pacers follow their shot?

    This discussion could be rendered moot if the Pacers would just hit all their shots!

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    Default Re: Why don't Pacers follow their shot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swingman View Post
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    And since there's 5 players on a team, you can have someone else cover the fast break.
    ...the hell?

    You want one guy to cover a 2 on 1 break? That's your plan?

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Why don't Pacers follow their shot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    ...the hell?

    You want one guy to cover a 2 on 1 break? That's your plan?
    I never said to have just one guy covering the break. You don't need to have 5 people covering the break.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why don't Pacers follow their shot?

    Transition defense is the most important thing for any team's defense - getting back and matching up is IMO the most underrated part of any team's defense. When a player follows his own shot, the other team often gets an uncontested layup.

    I've made several posts over the years about the importance of getting back on defense and the value of not crashing the offensive boards.

    Even the coaches that emphasis offensive rebounds - like Larry brown, Phil jackson, Rick Adelman - if you watch their teams play they still don't send too many to the offensive glass. On the other hand if you watch coaches such as Gregg Popovich, Jeff van Gundy, pat Riley, Rick carlisle, Jim O'Brien - they don't emphase offensive rebounds. i think it is one of the biggest reasons why the Spurs always beat the suns in the playoffs, because they get back
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 02-25-2008 at 11:40 AM.

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    Default Re: Why don't Pacers follow their shot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swingman View Post
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    I never said to have just one guy covering the break. You don't need to have 5 people covering the break.
    ...so you want to send your guard to the glass and tell a forward or center to cover the guard on the other end?

    The guards are out on the perimeter, and the forwards/centers are closer to the rim.

    Meaning, you're asking a forward to get back against someone that (A) isn't his man, (B) has a 15-20 foot head start, and (C) is most likely is much faster.

    Nice plan.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Why don't Pacers follow their shot?

    Jim O'Brien actually has what he calls a sprint rule. He's discussed this on his radio show awhile back. Players have two options when the Pacers shoot the ball. Either sprint back or sprint to the offensive glass. Anything but those two things isn't an option.

    Having said that though, there are strict limits on who and when a player can sprint to the offensive glass.

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    Default Re: Why don't Pacers follow their shot?

    I thought we are a defensive team. Chuck threes up and get back on defense
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    Default Re: Why don't Pacers follow their shot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    ...so you want to send your guard to the glass and tell a forward or center to cover the guard on the other end?

    The guards are out on the perimeter, and the forwards/centers are closer to the rim.

    Meaning, you're asking a forward to get back against someone that (A) isn't his man, (B) has a 15-20 foot head start, and (C) is most likely is much faster.

    Nice plan.
    Sorry, I forgot we only have 1 guard on our team and that guard takes 100% of our shots. My bad, I didn't realize Diener shot it 90 times each game. I guess our normal lineup must be Diener, Murphy, Foster, Harrison, and Diogu. That lineup probably has enough defensive issues anyway.
    Last edited by Swingman; 02-25-2008 at 08:15 PM.

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