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Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"

"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"

"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"

"He/she is just delusional"

"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"

"I'm going to take a moment to point and / laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"

"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.

We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.

In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

Rule #2

If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.

The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.

The right places to do so are:

A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.

B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.

If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

Rule #3

If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.

B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.

To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!

Rule #4

Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

Rule #5

When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.

An example:

If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:

http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star

Rule #6

We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.

The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

Rule #7

Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.

It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).

We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).

However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.

Rule #8

We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

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Rule #10

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Rule #11

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Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....

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  • Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....

    topics.

    The salary cap & teams dumping players (or whatever other term you want to use) to make salary cap. space.

    With the Suns in town I want to address this again, because I will admit that this theory has always baffled me.

    Ok, let's assume the Suns have made some salary space, which they have.

    Let's also assume that most of the players they recieved in the trade won't be here next season. Ward is already gone & I beleive that McDyse's contract runs out this season. I would not bet on Eisley being back either.

    Now let's assume that Starburry was a cancer, I will concede that point. But IMO, he is a talent a lot of teams would take a chance on just simply because he is so good.

    But the point of this post is not whether or not this was a bad trade, it's really to ask a question.

    Does anybody know of anytime that dropping low in salary cap standing actually works?

    Allen Bristow absolutely destroyed the Nuggets franchise with his "clearing cap space" crap 9 years ago & they are just now recovering.

    Orlando gambled a few years ago with the whole T-Mac, Duncan & Hill thing. Obviously they got T-Mac via free agency, they traded for Hill & lost on Duncan. Their franchise has never been the same since either. One could argue that it is because of Hill's injury, but then again it might not have panned out either. They dumped a core group of role players to get these guys & lost (IMO)

    The Bulls did the same thing & everybody sees where they are. The big free agent signing for them was Eddie Robinson.

    Anyway I guess I also will ask this about the Suns, who do they think they are going to get in free agency? Bryant? My guess is he will be right back in LaLa land & if not don't be suprised to see a sign & trade with Philly for the answer if things don't work out right.

    I have never seen a team dump salary's & sign the players via free agency to take them to the next level. At least I don't remember it anyway.

    Does anybody remember a team doing this correctly. Side note L.A. doesn't count because there are a lot of circumstances that go on with the Lakers.

    So to summerize my questions.

    1. Does anybody believe that dumping players to have salary cap room works to actually improve your team?

    2. Can you build a long term successfull franchise with this system?

    3. If you trade a star player, no matter how much of a cancer he is, should you not demand equal trade value in return or at least close to it?

    Ok, here is where I have to compliment Walsh.

    Thank God Donnie has never tried to do this & it appears he does not beleive in this system either.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  • #2
    Re: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite..


    1. Does anybody believe that dumping players to have salary cap room works to actually improve your team?

    2. Can you build a long term successfull franchise with this system?

    3. If you trade a star player, no matter how much of a cancer he is, should you not demand equal trade value in return or at least close to it?

    Ok, here is where I have to compliment Walsh.

    Thank God Donnie has never tried to do this & it appears he does not beleive in this system either.

    1) Peck, I agree with you, but I will throw out the Nuggets as one team that has to some degree. Although getting Carmelo, and making a good trade with the Knicks helped them more, but they did sign Miller, Boykins

    2) No you need good draft picks and a good trade or two. Look at the pacers. Traded Rose and dale for J.O and Artest. Drafted AL....

    3) Yes you should.


    The best way to "rebuild" is the way DW did it. it is a blueprint other teams must look at

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....

      The Suns ALREADY have more good young prospects than any team in the NBA right now. Free Agents or not, they are in EXCELLENT shape for the future:

      Macej Lampe
      Milos Vujanic
      Joe Johnson
      Zarko Cabarkapa
      Leandro Barbosa
      Amare Stoudamire
      Shawn Marion


      They hardly SCRAPPED their team, they just got rid of their big-salary players.

      It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

      Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
      Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
      NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....

        The Suns ALREADY have more good young prospects than any team in the NBA right now. Free Agents or not, they are in EXCELLENT shape for the future:

        Macej Lampe
        Milos Vujanic
        Joe Johnson
        Zarko Cabarkapa
        Leandro Barbosa
        Amare Stoudamire
        Shawn Marion


        They hardly SCRAPPED their team, they just got rid of their big-salary players.
        Marion, Stoudamire, Johnson - yes.

        We'll see about the other players

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....

          The Suns ALREADY have more good young prospects than any team in the NBA right now. Free Agents or not, they are in EXCELLENT shape for the future:

          Macej Lampe
          Milos Vujanic
          Joe Johnson
          Zarko Cabarkapa
          Leandro Barbosa
          Amare Stoudamire
          Shawn Marion


          They hardly SCRAPPED their team, they just got rid of their big-salary players.
          Marion, Stoudamire, Johnson - yes.

          We'll see about the other players
          There's a reason why they're called PROSPECTS, UB. My point was that they are all HIGHLY rated prospects.

          BTW, I'd rate JJ at the BOTTOM of that list in terms of potential.

          It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

          Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
          Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
          NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....

            There's a reason why they're called PROSPECTS, UB. My point was that they are all HIGHLY rated prospects.

            BTW, I'd rate JJ at the BOTTOM of that list in terms of potential.

            OK, fair enough

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....

              I feel most "salary dumps" are done for business reasons and not basketball reasons.

              Would you want to own a team with a 34-48 record and a 70M payroll or a team with a 30-52 record and a 40M payroll with a "chance" to improve.

              I'm with Kstat in the Phoenix situation. The "youngs" may not develop but they sure look like they could. I would take my chances with them.

              I would rather be the hammer than the nail

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....

                I dunno...do the season tix holders get a refund if they paid for their Tix before the salary dump occured? Seems to me that in these cases the fans are being immediately screwed.
                Ever notice how friendly folks are at a shootin' range??.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....

                  In the old days, the major advantages to dumping salary, besides saving money, was that you could sign unrestricted free agents.

                  Now, because of luxury tax fears, a team under the cap is also able to make very friendly talent exchanges in trades with teams needing to dump salary because of luxury tax concerns.

                  San Antonio getting Hedo Turkoglu and Ron Mercer for Danny Ferry is a recent example.

                  Also, because of the luxury tax, there are far fewer teams bidding for free agents. A team like Indiana may have a mid-level exception available to use, but it does not use it because the new player's salary would place the team in luxury tax territory, resulting in a dollar-for-dollar tax and maybe even the loss of shared revenue.

                  Kiki V deserves major props in Denver. He had the balls to gut a mediocre NBA team with major payroll problems and start over. And he came along at the right time to take full advantage of being under the cap.

                  Can you imagine if the Nuggets still had VanExel, LaFrentz, Avery Johnson, Tariq Abdul-Wahad, and Antonio McDyess?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....


                    So to summerize my questions.

                    1. Does anybody believe that dumping players to have salary cap room works to actually improve your team?
                    I agree it very rarely works but in unique situations it can. A perfect example was the Lakers when they dumped Lynch,Divac etc.,, to clear space for Shaq. The reason it usually doesn't work is because the team that dumps the players usually ends up with a horrible record and big name free agents aren't going to sign on with a losing team or a bottom feeder. Atlanta could have had all the cap space they wanted and they still weren't getting Jason Kidd.


                    3. If you trade a star player, no matter how much of a cancer he is, should you not demand equal trade value in return or at least close to it?
                    YES. I live in the city that traded Wilt for garbage then we traded Barkley because he wanted out. At the time we traded Barkley it was rumored we were getting Olajuwon this was before Houston won the titles and there were rumors swirling about a Barkley for Olajuwon swap; instead we recieved 3 average players for Barkley and ended up in the lottery for 5 straight years. AI's name has been mentioned recently in trade rumors in Philly; I'm not against the 76ers moving him but they better not trade him for 2-3 average players if they decide to trade Iverson they better get a terrific player in return otherwise they'll be back in the lottery for the next 6 years.

                    A couple of seasons ago Larry Brown had Iverson traded to Detroit in a three team deal and the 76ers were getting Rice and Eddie Jones for Iverson and Geiger but the deal fell through at the last minute because Geiger had a trade kicker that he refused to waive. That would have been a disaster you don't trade superstars unless your getting one back.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....

                      AI's name has been mentioned recently in trade rumors in Philly; I'm not against the 76ers moving him but they better not trade him for 2-3 average players if they decide to trade Iverson they better get a terrific player in return otherwise they'll be back in the lottery for the next 6 years.
                      Well, you ALREADY traded him once for Jerry Stackhouse

                      It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

                      Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
                      Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
                      NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....

                        AI's name has been mentioned recently in trade rumors in Philly; I'm not against the 76ers moving him but they better not trade him for 2-3 average players if they decide to trade Iverson they better get a terrific player in return otherwise they'll be back in the lottery for the next 6 years.
                        Well, you ALREADY traded him once for Jerry Stackhouse
                        I heard recently that AI was this close to being traded to Detroit a few years back. Was that who Philly was gonna get back??

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....

                          AI's name has been mentioned recently in trade rumors in Philly; I'm not against the 76ers moving him but they better not trade him for 2-3 average players if they decide to trade Iverson they better get a terrific player in return otherwise they'll be back in the lottery for the next 6 years.
                          Well, you ALREADY traded him once for Jerry Stackhouse
                          I heard recently that AI was this close to being traded to Detroit a few years back. Was that who Philly was gonna get back??
                          Actually, as Im sure DD would tell you, the deal was done. Dumars and Billy Knight had already agreed to an Iverson and Matt Geiger for Stackhouse and Jerome Williams deal, but for that to happen Matt Geiger had to waive a trade-kicker in his contract, and reportedly he refused.

                          It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

                          Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
                          Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
                          NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....

                            AI's name has been mentioned recently in trade rumors in Philly; I'm not against the 76ers moving him but they better not trade him for 2-3 average players if they decide to trade Iverson they better get a terrific player in return otherwise they'll be back in the lottery for the next 6 years.
                            Well, you ALREADY traded him once for Jerry Stackhouse
                            I heard recently that AI was this close to being traded to Detroit a few years back. Was that who Philly was gonna get back??
                            Actually, as Im sure DD would tell you, the deal was done. Dumars and Billy Knight had already agreed to an Iverson and Matt Geiger for Stackhouse and Jerome Williams deal, but for that to happen Matt Geiger had to waive a trade-kicker in his contract, and reportedly he refused.
                            Talk about your alternate courses of history!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....

                              So to summerize my questions.

                              1. Does anybody believe that dumping players to have salary cap room works to actually improve your team?

                              2. Can you build a long term successfull franchise with this system?

                              3. If you trade a star player, no matter how much of a cancer he is, should you not demand equal trade value in return or at least close to it?

                              Ok, here is where I have to compliment Walsh.

                              Thank God Donnie has never tried to do this & it appears he does not beleive in this system either.

                              1. Clearly no - your examples say it all.

                              2. No. I've always said this about teams "recruiting" free agents: If you get a guy to sign with you just because you've offered the most money (Portland) or you have the best weather (Orlando) or you've got the best opportunity for endorsement deals (Chicago) then you get a team full of guys interested in the weather, endorsements, contracts, etc. I'd rather have a team full of guys interested in winning. I'm glad our most significant FA signing of the Donnie Walsh era is arguably Sam Perkins.

                              3. Depends on how you define "equal value". We as fans are looking at talent alone - I don't know any of the players on a personal basis so I don't know who's a jerk and who's not. There have been many trades in which it appeared one team got screwed on paper but was really better off - maybe not for the rest of that season (or during the next season) but long-term.

                              I generally measure multiplayer trades by "who got the best overall player". As Dipper said, trading one all-NBA caliber player for three "okay" starters doesn't work - and its why I'm still in favor of packaging two or three of our guys for a Ray Allen type if we could.
                              Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
                              Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
                              Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
                              Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
                              And life itself, rushing over me
                              Life itself, the wind in black elms,
                              Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

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