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Thread: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....

  1. #1
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....

    topics.

    The salary cap & teams dumping players (or whatever other term you want to use) to make salary cap. space.

    With the Suns in town I want to address this again, because I will admit that this theory has always baffled me.

    Ok, let's assume the Suns have made some salary space, which they have.

    Let's also assume that most of the players they recieved in the trade won't be here next season. Ward is already gone & I beleive that McDyse's contract runs out this season. I would not bet on Eisley being back either.

    Now let's assume that Starburry was a cancer, I will concede that point. But IMO, he is a talent a lot of teams would take a chance on just simply because he is so good.

    But the point of this post is not whether or not this was a bad trade, it's really to ask a question.

    Does anybody know of anytime that dropping low in salary cap standing actually works?

    Allen Bristow absolutely destroyed the Nuggets franchise with his "clearing cap space" crap 9 years ago & they are just now recovering.

    Orlando gambled a few years ago with the whole T-Mac, Duncan & Hill thing. Obviously they got T-Mac via free agency, they traded for Hill & lost on Duncan. Their franchise has never been the same since either. One could argue that it is because of Hill's injury, but then again it might not have panned out either. They dumped a core group of role players to get these guys & lost (IMO)

    The Bulls did the same thing & everybody sees where they are. The big free agent signing for them was Eddie Robinson.

    Anyway I guess I also will ask this about the Suns, who do they think they are going to get in free agency? Bryant? My guess is he will be right back in LaLa land & if not don't be suprised to see a sign & trade with Philly for the answer if things don't work out right.

    I have never seen a team dump salary's & sign the players via free agency to take them to the next level. At least I don't remember it anyway.

    Does anybody remember a team doing this correctly. Side note L.A. doesn't count because there are a lot of circumstances that go on with the Lakers.

    So to summerize my questions.

    1. Does anybody believe that dumping players to have salary cap room works to actually improve your team?

    2. Can you build a long term successfull franchise with this system?

    3. If you trade a star player, no matter how much of a cancer he is, should you not demand equal trade value in return or at least close to it?

    Ok, here is where I have to compliment Walsh.

    Thank God Donnie has never tried to do this & it appears he does not beleive in this system either.


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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite..


    1. Does anybody believe that dumping players to have salary cap room works to actually improve your team?

    2. Can you build a long term successfull franchise with this system?

    3. If you trade a star player, no matter how much of a cancer he is, should you not demand equal trade value in return or at least close to it?

    Ok, here is where I have to compliment Walsh.

    Thank God Donnie has never tried to do this & it appears he does not beleive in this system either.

    1) Peck, I agree with you, but I will throw out the Nuggets as one team that has to some degree. Although getting Carmelo, and making a good trade with the Knicks helped them more, but they did sign Miller, Boykins

    2) No you need good draft picks and a good trade or two. Look at the pacers. Traded Rose and dale for J.O and Artest. Drafted AL....

    3) Yes you should.


    The best way to "rebuild" is the way DW did it. it is a blueprint other teams must look at

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    Default Re: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....

    The Suns ALREADY have more good young prospects than any team in the NBA right now. Free Agents or not, they are in EXCELLENT shape for the future:

    Macej Lampe
    Milos Vujanic
    Joe Johnson
    Zarko Cabarkapa
    Leandro Barbosa
    Amare Stoudamire
    Shawn Marion


    They hardly SCRAPPED their team, they just got rid of their big-salary players.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....

    The Suns ALREADY have more good young prospects than any team in the NBA right now. Free Agents or not, they are in EXCELLENT shape for the future:

    Macej Lampe
    Milos Vujanic
    Joe Johnson
    Zarko Cabarkapa
    Leandro Barbosa
    Amare Stoudamire
    Shawn Marion


    They hardly SCRAPPED their team, they just got rid of their big-salary players.
    Marion, Stoudamire, Johnson - yes.

    We'll see about the other players

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    Rebound King Kstat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....

    The Suns ALREADY have more good young prospects than any team in the NBA right now. Free Agents or not, they are in EXCELLENT shape for the future:

    Macej Lampe
    Milos Vujanic
    Joe Johnson
    Zarko Cabarkapa
    Leandro Barbosa
    Amare Stoudamire
    Shawn Marion


    They hardly SCRAPPED their team, they just got rid of their big-salary players.
    Marion, Stoudamire, Johnson - yes.

    We'll see about the other players
    There's a reason why they're called PROSPECTS, UB. My point was that they are all HIGHLY rated prospects.

    BTW, I'd rate JJ at the BOTTOM of that list in terms of potential.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....

    There's a reason why they're called PROSPECTS, UB. My point was that they are all HIGHLY rated prospects.

    BTW, I'd rate JJ at the BOTTOM of that list in terms of potential.

    OK, fair enough

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    Default Re: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....

    I feel most "salary dumps" are done for business reasons and not basketball reasons.

    Would you want to own a team with a 34-48 record and a 70M payroll or a team with a 30-52 record and a 40M payroll with a "chance" to improve.

    I'm with Kstat in the Phoenix situation. The "youngs" may not develop but they sure look like they could. I would take my chances with them.

    I would rather be the hammer than the nail

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    Default Re: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....

    I dunno...do the season tix holders get a refund if they paid for their Tix before the salary dump occured? Seems to me that in these cases the fans are being immediately screwed.
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    Default Re: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....

    In the old days, the major advantages to dumping salary, besides saving money, was that you could sign unrestricted free agents.

    Now, because of luxury tax fears, a team under the cap is also able to make very friendly talent exchanges in trades with teams needing to dump salary because of luxury tax concerns.

    San Antonio getting Hedo Turkoglu and Ron Mercer for Danny Ferry is a recent example.

    Also, because of the luxury tax, there are far fewer teams bidding for free agents. A team like Indiana may have a mid-level exception available to use, but it does not use it because the new player's salary would place the team in luxury tax territory, resulting in a dollar-for-dollar tax and maybe even the loss of shared revenue.

    Kiki V deserves major props in Denver. He had the balls to gut a mediocre NBA team with major payroll problems and start over. And he came along at the right time to take full advantage of being under the cap.

    Can you imagine if the Nuggets still had VanExel, LaFrentz, Avery Johnson, Tariq Abdul-Wahad, and Antonio McDyess?

  10. #10

    Default Re: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....


    So to summerize my questions.

    1. Does anybody believe that dumping players to have salary cap room works to actually improve your team?
    I agree it very rarely works but in unique situations it can. A perfect example was the Lakers when they dumped Lynch,Divac etc.,, to clear space for Shaq. The reason it usually doesn't work is because the team that dumps the players usually ends up with a horrible record and big name free agents aren't going to sign on with a losing team or a bottom feeder. Atlanta could have had all the cap space they wanted and they still weren't getting Jason Kidd.


    3. If you trade a star player, no matter how much of a cancer he is, should you not demand equal trade value in return or at least close to it?
    YES. I live in the city that traded Wilt for garbage then we traded Barkley because he wanted out. At the time we traded Barkley it was rumored we were getting Olajuwon this was before Houston won the titles and there were rumors swirling about a Barkley for Olajuwon swap; instead we recieved 3 average players for Barkley and ended up in the lottery for 5 straight years. AI's name has been mentioned recently in trade rumors in Philly; I'm not against the 76ers moving him but they better not trade him for 2-3 average players if they decide to trade Iverson they better get a terrific player in return otherwise they'll be back in the lottery for the next 6 years.

    A couple of seasons ago Larry Brown had Iverson traded to Detroit in a three team deal and the 76ers were getting Rice and Eddie Jones for Iverson and Geiger but the deal fell through at the last minute because Geiger had a trade kicker that he refused to waive. That would have been a disaster you don't trade superstars unless your getting one back.

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    Default Re: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....

    AI's name has been mentioned recently in trade rumors in Philly; I'm not against the 76ers moving him but they better not trade him for 2-3 average players if they decide to trade Iverson they better get a terrific player in return otherwise they'll be back in the lottery for the next 6 years.
    Well, you ALREADY traded him once for Jerry Stackhouse

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    Default Re: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....

    AI's name has been mentioned recently in trade rumors in Philly; I'm not against the 76ers moving him but they better not trade him for 2-3 average players if they decide to trade Iverson they better get a terrific player in return otherwise they'll be back in the lottery for the next 6 years.
    Well, you ALREADY traded him once for Jerry Stackhouse
    I heard recently that AI was this close to being traded to Detroit a few years back. Was that who Philly was gonna get back??

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    Default Re: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....

    AI's name has been mentioned recently in trade rumors in Philly; I'm not against the 76ers moving him but they better not trade him for 2-3 average players if they decide to trade Iverson they better get a terrific player in return otherwise they'll be back in the lottery for the next 6 years.
    Well, you ALREADY traded him once for Jerry Stackhouse
    I heard recently that AI was this close to being traded to Detroit a few years back. Was that who Philly was gonna get back??
    Actually, as Im sure DD would tell you, the deal was done. Dumars and Billy Knight had already agreed to an Iverson and Matt Geiger for Stackhouse and Jerome Williams deal, but for that to happen Matt Geiger had to waive a trade-kicker in his contract, and reportedly he refused.

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    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....

    AI's name has been mentioned recently in trade rumors in Philly; I'm not against the 76ers moving him but they better not trade him for 2-3 average players if they decide to trade Iverson they better get a terrific player in return otherwise they'll be back in the lottery for the next 6 years.
    Well, you ALREADY traded him once for Jerry Stackhouse
    I heard recently that AI was this close to being traded to Detroit a few years back. Was that who Philly was gonna get back??
    Actually, as Im sure DD would tell you, the deal was done. Dumars and Billy Knight had already agreed to an Iverson and Matt Geiger for Stackhouse and Jerome Williams deal, but for that to happen Matt Geiger had to waive a trade-kicker in his contract, and reportedly he refused.
    Talk about your alternate courses of history!

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    Default Re: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....

    So to summerize my questions.

    1. Does anybody believe that dumping players to have salary cap room works to actually improve your team?

    2. Can you build a long term successfull franchise with this system?

    3. If you trade a star player, no matter how much of a cancer he is, should you not demand equal trade value in return or at least close to it?

    Ok, here is where I have to compliment Walsh.

    Thank God Donnie has never tried to do this & it appears he does not beleive in this system either.

    1. Clearly no - your examples say it all.

    2. No. I've always said this about teams "recruiting" free agents: If you get a guy to sign with you just because you've offered the most money (Portland) or you have the best weather (Orlando) or you've got the best opportunity for endorsement deals (Chicago) then you get a team full of guys interested in the weather, endorsements, contracts, etc. I'd rather have a team full of guys interested in winning. I'm glad our most significant FA signing of the Donnie Walsh era is arguably Sam Perkins.

    3. Depends on how you define "equal value". We as fans are looking at talent alone - I don't know any of the players on a personal basis so I don't know who's a jerk and who's not. There have been many trades in which it appeared one team got screwed on paper but was really better off - maybe not for the rest of that season (or during the next season) but long-term.

    I generally measure multiplayer trades by "who got the best overall player". As Dipper said, trading one all-NBA caliber player for three "okay" starters doesn't work - and its why I'm still in favor of packaging two or three of our guys for a Ray Allen type if we could.
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    Default Re: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....

    I heard recently that AI was this close to being traded to Detroit a few years back. Was that who Philly was gonna get back??
    Yeh, it was a 3 team deal, the link is below. Detroit was giving up Stack and JYD and getting Geiger and Iverson. The 76ers were giving up AI and Geiger and getting back Glen Rice, Eddie Jones and JYD. And the 3rd team I guess that it was Miami I can't remember but they were getting Stackhouse. I just remember that next season Rice and Eddie Jones were injured and Iverson won the MVP. It was a real complicated deal that fell through because of Geigers trade kicker he refused to let go.

    http://www.southjerseynews.com/issues/june/s060101c.htm

    But think back. Remember last summer. Recall that the 76ers weren't just considering the possibility of trading Iverson to the Detroit Pistons.

    They had done it.

    ``We traded him,'' Brown told the Washington Post earlier this week. ``We made the deal. It was done. But Matt Geiger wouldn't agree to it.''

    Because Geiger refused to waive the 15-percent kicker in his contract, the 76ers couldn't consummate the multiplayer, multiteam deal that Brown and general manager Billy King put together after coming to the conclusion that Iverson was more trouble than he was worth.

    The missed practices, the rotten work habits, the reckless lifestyle, the obvious lack of faith in his coaches and teammates - it all was too much for Brown and King and even team president Pat Croce, who signed off on the deal despite his personal affection and respect for Iverson.

  17. #17
    Member Doug's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....

    I *hate* the idea of rebuilding through the lottery. It almost never works. The same teams are in the lottery year, after year, after year. With the Clippers being the poster child. (I know their ownership have had some problems committing (i.e. paying) to the players they drafter, but still).

    I'd rather have 3 years of mediocrity than a decade of lottery-ville.

    That said, mediocrity is a trap in itself. The danger of being "good enough" and willing to settle and stay there. And you don't have the high draft picks to help dig you out. You have to make some trades - be willing to trade some of your more valuable pieces (Dale, Jalen, for example) to get what you need or to take a risk. Some times they work. Like for us. Some time those gambles don't (Bender. Bulls trading Brand.)
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    Default Re: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....

    If you are dumping saleries to sign free agents this rarely works. I would even argue that free agent signings rarely are a reliable way to build a team or make a team into a championship team. The only free agent signing I can think of that made a team a championship team was Shaq.

    As far as the Sun's case I would argue that trading Marbury wasn't as bad as Philly trading Barkley (or trying to trade AI) because while talented Marbury isn't a superstar.

    Also the move allows thier other young talent to step up and develop with out Marbury monopolizing the offense. Also it frees up room to retain thier players when they become free agents.

    So my answers to Pecks questions are no, no and yes if it really is a superstar.
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    Member naptownmenace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....

    1. Does anybody believe that dumping players to have salary cap room works to actually improve your team?

    It usually doesn't work or it takes several years to come to fruition. However, I wouldn't use the Nuggets as an example. They had a pretty high payroll up until Issel was fired and Kiki stepped in as GM. He dumped numerous high priced players, McDyess, LaFrentz, Van Exel, Tariq Adbul-Wahad, and Juwan Howard. All that salary cap space turned into a nice lottery picks which they used to get Nene and Carmelo. They then signed Andre Miller, Voshon Lenard, Jon Barry, and Earl Boykins to round them into a playoff contender.

    You also should mention the Spurs. They made a lot of moves over the past couple seasons to cut back on salary. It worked for the Nuggets and Spurs but for most teams it doesn't.

    2. Can you build a long term successfull franchise with this system?

    It all depends on who you get via trades, the draft, or free agency. If you can draft an impact player through the draft or obtain a key FA, then it might work out in the long term.

    3. If you trade a star player, no matter how much of a cancer he is, should you not demand equal trade value in return or at least close to it?

    Yes, you should always try to get equal trade value. For the Suns they got a lot of prospects and good draft picks. It doesn't seem like equal value right now but they were losing with Marbury and they are losing without him just the same.
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    Default Re: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....



    1. Does anybody believe that dumping players to have salary cap room works to actually improve your team?


    I don't think it works for a total rebuild. I do think it works for a smaller build up or to help maintain your team. The two examples I see are the Spurs and Detroit. San Antonio wants to be able to go above the MLE to re-sign Giobilli if they need to so they dumped salary.

    Same with Detroit and Okur.

    Denver's made a nice re-load with their team.

    2. Can you build a long term successfull franchise with this system?


    This again depends on what your team's goals are. If you have a bunch of young, athletic guys but your team has said there's no way they're going above the LT, then you need to start well below that level just so you can re-sign your youngsters when their time for new contracts comes. But at some point players will want to be paid. One of the most painful things about the current CBA is that if your team sucks and you draft extremely well, in about 4 years time - right when those players are getting ready to really win - you're gonna have to come up with some big money.

    The one thing a team will need to be willing to do is to trade some of these promising youngsters for some vets who know how to win - and let some others go as FA's if need be. You can't have 5 franchise players. Claveland seems to realize this.

    The one thing I WOULD say is that if you're clearing space just to make a big splash on the FA market then no - I don't think that works. But if you're doing it so you can re-sign your own guys and keep building something then yes - I think it's a good idea.


    3. If you trade a star player, no matter how much of a cancer he is, should you not demand equal trade value in return or at least close to it?

    Demand? Sometimes a player just plain has to go - no matter what. And sometimes it's addition by subtraction. Even I won't argue that Cleveland got equal value, from a talent standpoint, back in the Ricky Davis trade. But I thought it was a horrible move by Boston at the time and still do - some players can put up all the numbers they want but they just don't help their teams win.
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    Default Re: Ok, it's time once again to revisit one of my favorite....

    I'd think that Kobe's most likely destination would be LA as well. But who knows how much he likes being around Shaq and Phil anymore. He apparently is a huge fan of the Suns coach who he admired in Italy and Phoenix has always attracted players. Right now I doubt they will be far enuff under the cap to get him. And if he really is mad at the Lakers and Shaq why would he agree to a sign and trade allowing LA to get decent compensation for him even if Philly is his hometown.

    Hey, this is my first post on this forum. Just don't recognize many names at the old forum and found this one. I have been an old poster from the Star News forum though I haven't posted there in ions either. Those who remember me from the SN Forum know I'm a Mavs fan and Mavs season tix holder. But like in my days growing up in Indiana, I rooted for the Pacers in the ABA and the Bulls in the NBA. Now it's the Mavs out West and the Pacers in the East.

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