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Thread: CNNSI article: Path to success unclear for teams stuck in the middle (Walsh input)

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    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default CNNSI article: Path to success unclear for teams stuck in the middle (Walsh input)

    Hmmm... some interesting comments from Donnie here and there in this article. Don't think it has been posted yet, but if it has feel free to lock this thread Admins .

    "Which way is up?
    Path to success unclear for teams stuck in the middle


    For much of the NBA, the trade deadline has a straightforward focus. Those teams cruising to a playoff berth are looking to deal for the final piece to the Finals puzzle, while those in the express lane to the draft lottery are trying to peddle their veterans for young players or draft picks.

    Stuck in the middle, though, are those teams whose destination is unclear, who are seemingly as close to the playoffs as they are to rebuilding. And for teams such as the Indiana Pacers and Milwaukee Bucks -- clubs not in realistic title contention nor out of the playoff chase -- the decision about whether to trade yourself into or out of the postseason may be one of the most difficult in the NBA.

    "It's wonderful to say everybody's goal is to win the world championship; that's a good sound bite," said Bob Ferry, general manager of the Washington Bullets from 1973-90. "But realistically, if you don't have the nucleus of players to build around to do that, then you're much more likely to take your lumps and take a chance in the lottery. But it's a huge gamble, and you're going to have to understand it can take years to build that way."

    Before rolling the dice on that sort of fresh start, teams tend to consider the odds on a handful of key concerns. These issues say as much about a team's present as they do in determining its future.

    Star power
    Being invited to a party that includes more than half of the league may not qualify as exclusive, but the playoffs still offer a lot more pluses than minuses: revenue, exposure and an accomplishment to sell to fans. Still, the difference between attending as a low seed and getting a seat behind the velvet rope as a title contender is a function of having the type of talent that isn't common in the NBA.

    "If your goal is to win the championship, you've got to have basically the best player in the NBA," said Ferry, who presided over a Bullets team that won the 1978 title and reached the postseason 14 times in his tenure as GM. "It doesn't make any difference what position."

    While the occasional outliers -- the 2004 Pistons, the Sonics and Bullets of the late 1970s -- offer some evidence to the contrary, for the most part, the history of the NBA Finals is littered with the game's iconic figures, from Russell to Abdul-Jabbar to Magic to Bird to Jordan to Shaq and Kobe to Duncan.

    Acquiring that rare talent has thus become the driving philosophy for many a team, an impetus that prompts some clubs to welcome a nosedive in the standings in hopes of winning the draft lottery. That is, when they are not continually searching for the right mix of complementary pieces to surround their MVP candidate.

    "It's like a poker hand. Your best player is your wild card," Ferry said. "If you've got a couple of wild cards, then it's best to keep going, trying to pick the right players or make the right trades to add to what you have. If you don't, then you've got to decide how to get that player."

    Tying your fortunes to the likes of a Jason Kidd, though, also ties a team to the whims of the player. That means a team could be compelled to make moves whether it wants to or not.

    "Guys who make a lot of money often tell teams which way they want them to go," new Sixers GM Ed Stefanski said. "Players' attitudes and chemistry in the locker room and on the court will dictate whether you blow it up or not. If they decide that they don't want to be around and they make a ton of money, that forces a team to make a decision."

    The goals of that choice differ, though, for a team running out the clock on a playoff run versus a club at the beginning of one.

    "There is a decision to be made if getting in the playoffs is going to put you in a better position next year to go higher in the playoffs," said Pacers CEO Donnie Walsh, whose club missed the postseason for the first time in 10 years last season. "When you have a young team you should always want to make the playoffs because the more times your team is in, the better they are going to be once they grow up and get to a certain point where you can add the necessary players around them to make them an elite team.

    "There's [also] a time you might look and say, 'We've had elements of this team that have been together for a long time; it's not working. What is our best value out there? Are we in a position where we can add players, or are there trades that will make us better, or should we just break up the whole thing?' "

    That decision, according to Walsh -- who acknowledged that the Pacers need additions to become a better team -- will guide Indiana's moves and those of most teams this week and this summer.

    To market, to market
    No matter how many hours a front office spends scouting potential trade targets, a team's options are limited by the very opponents it hopes to beat.

    "What you want to do isn't the question," Walsh said. "The question is, What are those teams I'm dealing with willing to do? If you make the right trades, it can go either way. It may allow you to break up the team, get draft choices, young players and start all over. On the other hand, if you're not able to do that, you may have to go in another direction."

    Walsh cites the recent Shaquille O'Neal trade as an example of how quickly a team's plans can change. With Shaq signed for another two seasons at $20 million annually, the Diesel was thought to be all but untradable, a notion that likely would have had the Heat looking to quickly build a productive, if not title-worthy, supporting cast around O'Neal and Dwyane Wade. When the Suns came calling, though, the opportunity to rebuild for the long term was too enticing to ignore.

    But those types of offers from contenders can just as easily keep a team focused on making the best of its current situation. In Philadelphia, Stefanski took over in December promising to assess the organization from top to bottom, which, for a team that lost 47 games last season, seemed a prelude to a housecleaning, especially with the salary-cap savings veteran point guard Andre Miller could offer in a trade. But impressed with Miller's leadership of a young roster, Stefanski may just keep his $9 million asset.

    "I have not called any teams and asked them what they would give me for Andre Miller," Stefanski told SI.com. "I've fielded calls about Andre, but there have been no offers that would make us trade him. He's our leader and the glue guy on our team. If we decided to trade him, you'd have to go with youth and a piece for the future; we've already got experience, so you'd have to stay in a total rebuilding mode."

    Of course, the willingness to pick up the phone in the first place depends on another variable out of a team's control: the draft.

    "Certain years it makes a hell of a lot more sense to lose and scratch it out than other years, depending on who is projected to go in the lottery," Ferry said.

    For every year that offers a LeBron or a Carmelo, however, there are far more that include players such as Adam Morrison and recently traded Shelden Williams among the top five. That reality may give a general manager pause before taking the sledgehammer to his team. And that's to say nothing of the team that swings for a lottery prize and misses.

    "Teams have gotten really burned going for the worst record," Walsh said. "Instead of getting a Greg Oden, they pick 4 or 5 or 6, and that sets you back a long way. You'll get a normal, good player, but you've given up your whole team and you can't really replace it, so you've probably put yourself way behind."

    Buzz factor
    Despite the bluster of how important rings and banners are, the NBA is, like any sport, a business enterprise, and that business is entertainment. Filled seats and luxury boxes more than make up for the hundreds of millions spent on salaries, luxury taxes and palatial training courts. And though logic holds that fans will support a winner, they won't come to see a winner tread water.

    "There comes a point where making the playoffs isn't received as well by the franchise or the fans," Walsh said. "Nobody's excited anymore that you make the playoffs because you always make the playoffs. It doesn't mean as much to you or your fan base."

    That fact doesn't manifest itself, initially, in wide swaths of empty seats, but in an undefined "feel," according to Walsh, a sense that sends some teams scrambling for the checkbook to acquire that elusive player who will get them "over the top" before the title window slams shut. But a new toy only goes so far with fans.

    "When I was in Washington, our big decision centered on whether or not to keep paying Moses Malone," Ferry said of the star center, whom the Bullets had acquired in June 1986. "[In 1988] we lost to Detroit in the final game of our [first-round] playoff series [the Bullets' fourth consecutive first-round exit]. After that happened, I think it was more exciting to [owner] Abe Pollin to think about the lottery and what might happen than it was just making the playoffs.

    "It was explained to [Pollin] by our marketing people that if we rebuilt they could market the team just as well as if we made another playoffs and lost in the first round. When Abe was reassured he wouldn't lose any more money going through this process, he went for it."

    Malone signed with the Rockets in the summer of 1988, and the Bullets' five-year streak of playoff appearances ended the next season.

    A painful process
    A fresh start rarely sounds like a bad alternative. It even engenders catchy slogans such as "Doin' It," or "The Hustling Bullets." But once the marketing campaign has been deployed and a team in the throes of reconstruction has to draw on its own play, the atmosphere in and around a club can turn sour quickly.

    "When those decisions are made, sometimes people don't realize the pain of losing and how devastating it is on people," Ferry said. "The summer may be great, but then you lose eight or 10 in a row, the bottom falls out and all of a sudden you remember, 'Oh my god, we're doing this on purpose.'

    "I would imagine some owners or organizations can handle it, but I didn't think our market or our chemistry could survive a rebuilding job. I showed [upper management] how long it took the average team at the time to build through the drafts and all the lotteries and ups and downs, and it was up to eight years. I said, 'I just don't think anybody in this room can handle losing for that long.' This wasn't going to be easy and relationships were going to be strained, and I knew it wasn't going to work for me."

    Ferry left the organization in 1990, when Washington was in the second year of an eight-year playoff drought. Free agency now can hasten a rebuilding project, but the process still can take years.

    "If you have draft choices and your salary is down, you could go out, draft good players, sign free agents and maybe get the talent in two years," Walsh said. "Then it's going to take time for you to grow into a very good team. Players have to learn one another and they have to go through all the trials and tribulations of ascending up the league. ... [But] if you're talking about completely rebuilding -- what Chicago did after Jordan's group -- you have to get ready for it because it can be real ugly in the beginning."

    How ugly? The Bulls averaged 21 victories in the first five 82-game seasons after Jordan's last hurrah in 1997-98. Seattle started this season 0-8 and also has had a 14-game losing streak. The Hawks haven't won more than 35 games in a season in 10 years.

    So why do it? Why tear down if tension and pink slips and hundreds of losses are the price of reaching for the next Hall of Famer? Why not play it safe, build a solid core and aim to become the next Pistons of 2004?

    Simply? It's easier to win with one than without one. The nature of the game allows one player to change a team's fortunes. With so many other hard, uncertain choices to weigh in determining a team's future, the comforts of stardom offer an asset that takes little analysis to appreciate."

    Source: CNNSI.com
    Link: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ing/index.html

    Regards,

    Mourning
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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: CNNSI article: Path to success unclear for teams stuck in the middle (Walsh input)

    Did anyone else hear Slick suggest that making the playoffs this season probably isn't the best thing for this Pacers team. He said this during last night's pre-game radio show

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: CNNSI article: Path to success unclear for teams stuck in the middle (Walsh input)

    I have a feeling when I get time to read this thoroughly and in whole, I'm not going to like it/agree am I?

    -Bball
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    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

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    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: CNNSI article: Path to success unclear for teams stuck in the middle (Walsh input)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I have a feeling when I get time to read this thoroughly and in whole, I'm not going to like it/agree am I?

    -Bball
    Haha, knowing you just a little bit I think that's a fair conclusion .

    Regards,

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    Default Re: CNNSI article: Path to success unclear for teams stuck in the middle (Walsh input)

    Slick is a realist and he doesn't mince words. Bird probably agrees
    with him, but can't say it.

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    Default Re: CNNSI article: Path to success unclear for teams stuck in the middle (Walsh input)

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Did anyone else hear Slick suggest that making the playoffs this season probably isn't the best thing for this Pacers team. He said this during last night's pre-game radio show
    Marc Stein reports that he's heard the advice to strongly believe that JO will play out the year WITH the Pacers.

    Or would that be for him to not play the season out FOR the Pacers?

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    Default Re: CNNSI article: Path to success unclear for teams stuck in the middle (Walsh input)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning View Post
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    The goals of that choice differ, though, for a team running out the clock on a playoff run versus a club at the beginning of one.

    "There is a decision to be made if getting in the playoffs is going to put you in a better position next year to go higher in the playoffs," said Pacers CEO Donnie Walsh, whose club missed the postseason for the first time in 10 years last season. "When you have a young team you should always want to make the playoffs because the more times your team is in, the better they are going to be once they grow up and get to a certain point where you can add the necessary players around them to make them an elite team.

    "There's [also] a time you might look and say, 'We've had elements of this team that have been together for a long time; it's not working. What is our best value out there? Are we in a position where we can add players, or are there trades that will make us better, or should we just break up the whole thing?' "

    That decision, according to Walsh -- who acknowledged that the Pacers need additions to become a better team -- will guide Indiana's moves and those of most teams this week and this summer.

    To market, to market
    No matter how many hours a front office spends scouting potential trade targets, a team's options are limited by the very opponents it hopes to beat.

    "What you want to do isn't the question," Walsh said. "The question is, What are those teams I'm dealing with willing to do? If you make the right trades, it can go either way. It may allow you to break up the team, get draft choices, young players and start all over. On the other hand, if you're not able to do that, you may have to go in another direction."
    I think that this is very telling of what TPTB have been trying to do this season. The goal at the beginning of the season was to make the Playoffs...like normal.....while trying to see what they can do to move JONeal for Expiring Contracts/Picks/prospects. Since they couldn't do it...we are not back on track with our push for the Playoffs...again.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: CNNSI article: Path to success unclear for teams stuck in the middle (Walsh input)

    These points need to be repeated ad nauseum to all "tankers" and "blow it up" types.
    "When those decisions are made, sometimes people don't realize the pain of losing and how devastating it is on people," Ferry said. "The summer may be great, but then you lose eight or 10 in a row, the bottom falls out and all of a sudden you remember, 'Oh my god, we're doing this on purpose.'
    [But] if you're talking about completely rebuilding -- what Chicago did after Jordan's group -- you have to get ready for it because it can be real ugly in the beginning."

    How ugly? The Bulls averaged 21 victories in the first five 82-game seasons after Jordan's last hurrah in 1997-98. Seattle started this season 0-8 and also has had a 14-game losing streak. The Hawks haven't won more than 35 games in a season in 10 years
    And Indy has been there before too. We know how horrible it can be, at least if you are over 35 or so. 5 straight years of 21 wins? Can you imagine what Conseco would look like...that's if the team wasn't moved in that time?

    Curtains for the upper level and ends of the club level. Legends is closed down. In short a LOT worse than it is even this season. They haven't got that average down to 7-8K yet.

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    Default Re: CNNSI article: Path to success unclear for teams stuck in the middle (Walsh input)

    Thanks for posting this article Mourning. A nice read, even if it is a realistic look at where we are. I love the Pacers, but we're not a very good team. I hope we can find a way to turn it around.

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    Default Re: CNNSI article: Path to success unclear for teams stuck in the middle (Walsh input)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I have a feeling when I get time to read this thoroughly and in whole, I'm not going to like it/agree am I?

    -Bball
    I thought it dead on.

    You won't like it because you just flat out don't like management and won't like reading what their problems are. But look at your bright side, this gives you an excuse to write your 10,300 diatribe against management.
    Last edited by Will Galen; 02-21-2008 at 03:49 PM.

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    Default Re: CNNSI article: Path to success unclear for teams stuck in the middle (Walsh input)

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Curtains for the upper level and ends of the club level. Legends is closed down. In short a LOT worse than it is even this season. They haven't got that average down to 7-8K yet.
    It's coming. The Pacers method of attempting to avoid it is actually going to make it worse. Why? Because even .500 ball isn't going to excite anyone and right now we're staring UP at .500 ball. We've had a 61 win team this decade and the next best was 44 IIRC (Well, I guess it depends on where you count 2000). Overall, we've been pretty BLAH more times than not this decade and are heading the wrong way. So the honeymoon period on rebuilding was wasted and the team is throwing spaghetti at the wall to avoid the inevitable.

    We're having 'rebuilding' type records NOW and we're not rebuilding. We're just extending the pain until we truly start the process. Rising up to be .500 isn't going to fix this mess.

    If something doesn't change yesterday, you can wave bye to the Pacers because the fact that the Simons and Walsh-Bird are maintaining the course means they must think this is the right path. And that means in the end they'll blame the city/state/fans for not being interested in NBA basketball anymore. ...And then they will move.

    -Bball
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    Default Re: CNNSI article: Path to success unclear for teams stuck in the middle (Walsh input)

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    I thought it dead on.

    You won't like it because you just flat out don't like management and won't like reading what their problems are.
    I'm just reading replies right now. I figure you're probably right. I want to take my time reading the article.

    -Bball
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    Default Re: CNNSI article: Path to success unclear for teams stuck in the middle (Walsh input)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    We're having 'rebuilding' type records NOW and we're not rebuilding.

    -Bball
    But we are rebuilding, just not the way you and others want. The Pacer brass just chose not to do a complete overhaul.

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: CNNSI article: Path to success unclear for teams stuck in the middle (Walsh input)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    We're having 'rebuilding' type records NOW and we're not rebuilding. We're just extending the pain until we truly start the process. Rising up to be .500 isn't going to fix this mess.
    But I'm in the "they are already rebuilding" camp, so I don't agree.

    Here's my rough plan for the team considering the contracts they've worked into.

    You have DG and Shawne to develop. Okay, both need to cook about another 2 years. Danny is just starting to tip into team star (not all-star) status. Shawne is about 1.5 years behind him I think.

    In the meantime you've just got zero room to work, especially considering the resign cost on Granger.

    So instead of trying to fix everything now, you try to hover around and then make a sudden leap in about 3 years. In the meantime while you sit in this dead-end waiting room the East is poor enough that even as configured you can get into the playoffs.

    The team peeks into the playoffs once or twice which gives DG and Shawne that taste as more critical components in those situation. And at the same time something much more important is happening - JO, Tins, Dun and Troy all have their contracts getting better and better.

    So just as Danny and Shawne are ready to be THE guys and are needing some help to push past first round fodder status, off the books comes JO, and Tins/Dun/Troy suddenly have become killer trade bait instead of dead weight.

    Along the way you might have picked up another Foster or Woody or Tony type in the mid-first, a guy that isn't the star but helps round out the youth movement.


    In other words, pretend that JO/Tins/Dun/Troy aren't even a part of what you are becoming. Yes they are here, but in a rebuilding spirit where the target is to get good in 3-4 years they aren't because clearly they will be coming off the books or traded by then.

    If you buy into Danny, and why not, and perhaps Shawne too, then what the F is the hurry to fix anything? As if EJ gets drafted and JO is traded for Vince and suddenly the Pacers are champs. That wouldn't be the case. Even if they can get a Rose, EJ or Bayless, those guys are going to need a couple of years just like Danny did.

    In the meantime someone check the list of possible FAs the year that JO comes off the books. That's the real rebuild target date, not today at 3pm. That's how a team that is as stuck as any team in the NBA gets out of that spot. And along the way you get some minor playoff distraction instead of total crap.

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    Default Re: CNNSI article: Path to success unclear for teams stuck in the middle (Walsh input)

    With all the ENTERTAINING BBALL happening alot of places OTHER than INDY this year (and probably alot more years, with the present regime) all I can hope for is that WALSH and BIRD hang on to the draft pick. Who knows, an ASTUTE judge of talent like BIRD might just get something good this time. BTW, shouldn't he be in EUROPE trying to mine yet another gem?

    Of course, they might just feel the need to give it up for Baby AL AGAIN.

    Why are these guys still running the team?

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    Default Re: CNNSI article: Path to success unclear for teams stuck in the middle (Walsh input)

    A few thoughts --
    1. All the trades made in the past couple of weeks by other teams are entertaining. Some will be successful like last summer's trade that made a contender out of Boston. Some will not work out. Only one team can come out of the West, so several teams there mortgaged their future for a cheap thrill in February.
    2. JO and JT are not part of the long-term solution for the Pacers. They aren't tradeable for other players. The lack of movement in the past few weeks despite front office effort is proof. The whole league knows these two are injury prone so we can't get equal value. Pacer management is stubborn on this point and they can't get past it. Their 'overpaid stars' can't play even 60 games/season.
    3. I'd like to see us take whatever it is we can get for these two has-beens in the form of draft choices, not players. The picks won't be high lottery pick draft choices but they could be first round. Then, we have to really do our homework so we make the best selections we can.
    Last edited by madison; 02-21-2008 at 09:18 PM.

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: CNNSI article: Path to success unclear for teams stuck in the middle (Walsh input)

    Well Madison, as has been mentioned the trades of the summer are often forged at the previous deadline. Just because things weren't done now doesn't mean the price wasn't close. A healthy JO playing well in April bumps up his value and maybe makes something work. Or TPTB having time to stew on things might make them pull the trigger when they weren't willing to cave before.

    There are only 2 reasons to deal right now:

    1) You are making a serious playoff run (ie, not the Pacers)

    2) Because teams are desperate to get that last piece they are willing to overpay and you get higher value on some of your parts. It sounds like this wasn't the case for Indy either.

    So really if a deal can be done it would seem like summer is the place to do it. We'll see.

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    Arrow Re: CNNSI article: Path to success unclear for teams stuck in the middle (Walsh input)

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    These points need to be repeated ad nauseum to all "tankers" and "blow it up" types.


    And Indy has been there before too. We know how horrible it can be, at least if you are over 35 or so. 5 straight years of 21 wins? Can you imagine what Conseco would look like...that's if the team wasn't moved in that time?

    Curtains for the upper level and ends of the club level. Legends is closed down. In short a LOT worse than it is even this season. They haven't got that average down to 7-8K yet.
    You forgot one:

    "There comes a point where making the playoffs isn't received as well by the franchise or the fans," Walsh said. "Nobody's excited anymore that you make the playoffs because you always make the playoffs. It doesn't mean as much to you or your fan base."
    There's only one real difference between 5 seasons of 21 wins and 5 seasons of 31 wins -- a better draft position and higher chance at drafting a good player. Neither of those teams makes the postseason, and neither of those teams brings in fans.

    The only people going to games now are the diehards, and they're the same fans that will go to the games during a rebuilding phase.

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    Default Re: CNNSI article: Path to success unclear for teams stuck in the middle (Walsh input)

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    But I'm in the "they are already rebuilding" camp, so I don't agree.

    Here's my rough plan for the team considering the contracts they've worked into.

    You have DG and Shawne to develop. Okay, both need to cook about another 2 years. Danny is just starting to tip into team star (not all-star) status. Shawne is about 1.5 years behind him I think.

    In the meantime you've just got zero room to work, especially considering the resign cost on Granger.

    So instead of trying to fix everything now, you try to hover around and then make a sudden leap in about 3 years. In the meantime while you sit in this dead-end waiting room the East is poor enough that even as configured you can get into the playoffs.

    The team peeks into the playoffs once or twice which gives DG and Shawne that taste as more critical components in those situation. And at the same time something much more important is happening - JO, Tins, Dun and Troy all have their contracts getting better and better.

    So just as Danny and Shawne are ready to be THE guys and are needing some help to push past first round fodder status, off the books comes JO, and Tins/Dun/Troy suddenly have become killer trade bait instead of dead weight.

    Along the way you might have picked up another Foster or Woody or Tony type in the mid-first, a guy that isn't the star but helps round out the youth movement.


    In other words, pretend that JO/Tins/Dun/Troy aren't even a part of what you are becoming. Yes they are here, but in a rebuilding spirit where the target is to get good in 3-4 years they aren't because clearly they will be coming off the books or traded by then.

    If you buy into Danny, and why not, and perhaps Shawne too, then what the F is the hurry to fix anything? As if EJ gets drafted and JO is traded for Vince and suddenly the Pacers are champs. That wouldn't be the case. Even if they can get a Rose, EJ or Bayless, those guys are going to need a couple of years just like Danny did.

    In the meantime someone check the list of possible FAs the year that JO comes off the books. That's the real rebuild target date, not today at 3pm. That's how a team that is as stuck as any team in the NBA gets out of that spot. And along the way you get some minor playoff distraction instead of total crap.
    Let me get this straight.....are you saying that whatever we are doing now isn't a "true" rebuilding process ( where you acquire draft picks, try to clear salarycap space and develop the young players ) but some long drawn out pseudo-rebuilding process where we will likely continue to lose games ( like we would if we were rebuilding if we were the Sonics ) while we develop players like Granger, Shawne and whatever players we draft in the next 2 or 3 seasons?

    Essentially, we are doing the same thing in rebuilding minus the typical clearing of the bad contracts ( and subsequent benefits of salary cap flexibility ) and simply living with them?
    Last edited by CableKC; 02-22-2008 at 12:14 AM.
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    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: CNNSI article: Path to success unclear for teams stuck in the middle (Walsh input)

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Let me get this straight.....are you saying that whatever we are doing now isn't a "true" rebuilding process ( where you acquire draft picks, try to clear salarycap space and develop the young players ) but some long drawn out pseudo-rebuilding process where we will likely continue to lose games ( like we would if we were rebuilding if we were the Sonics ) while we develop players like Granger, Shawne and whatever players we draft in the next 2 or 3 seasons?

    Essentially, we are doing the same thing in rebuilding minus the typical clearing of the bad contracts ( and subsequent benefits of salary cap flexibility ) and simply living with them?
    Obviously I'm not Seth, but I think that's what the team is doing. I think this is Plan B. Plan A is to trade those contracts for shorter ones or at least for players we don't mind keeping that long. But those trades aren't always going to be there and quite possibly were not right now. Better to wait then force Plan C: Trade because things are bad, even though we don't like the trade.

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    Default Re: CNNSI article: Path to success unclear for teams stuck in the middle (Walsh input)

    It wasn't as bad as I expected. I was ready to hear the city and state short-changed and an excuse of how limited the options were for the Pacers as compared to some other teams.

    I was ready to hear Walsh say how in X city you have more flexibility to retool and rebuild a roster but that it wouldn't work in Indiana.

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    Default Re: CNNSI article: Path to success unclear for teams stuck in the middle (Walsh input)

    Quote Originally Posted by madison View Post
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    3. I'd like to see us take whatever it is we can get for these two has-beens in the form of draft choices, not players. The picks won't be high lottery pick draft choices but they could be first round. Then, we have to really do our homework so we make the best selections we can.

    JO has far more value as an expiring in 2 years than any draft pick they might get.
    At least I think so. Unless someone gives up a 1-5 pick you keep JO. I just don't think anyone is going to give up a pick that high. AD got the Pacers a 5 I believe. AD was healthy.
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    Default Re: CNNSI article: Path to success unclear for teams stuck in the middle (Walsh input)

    This jumped out at me after reading all the "tank the season" stuff:

    For every year that offers a LeBron or a Carmelo, however, there are far more that include players such as Adam Morrison and recently traded Shelden Williams among the top five. That reality may give a general manager pause before taking the sledgehammer to his team. And that's to say nothing of the team that swings for a lottery prize and misses.

    "Teams have gotten really burned going for the worst record," Walsh said. "Instead of getting a Greg Oden, they pick 4 or 5 or 6, and that sets you back a long way. You'll get a normal, good player, but you've given up your whole team and you can't really replace it, so you've probably put yourself way behind."


    It was interesting to see how Ferry pretty much admitted that teams do tank seasons to rebuild.

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    Default Re: CNNSI article: Path to success unclear for teams stuck in the middle (Walsh input)

    I like this article. I can see the whole idea that if you tank and try to get a high draft pick, you really have to do it in the right year. You want to have it happen in the D Wade, Melo, Bosh, Lebron year, not the the Adam Morrison/Sheldon Williams year.

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    Default Re: CNNSI article: Path to success unclear for teams stuck in the middle (Walsh input)

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    I like this article. I can see the whole idea that if you tank and try to get a high draft pick, you really have to do it in the right year. You want to have it happen in the D Wade, Melo, Bosh, Lebron year, not the the Adam Morrison/Sheldon Williams year.
    I think that a very good scouting staff that you can at least improve your chances of picking a future All-Star ( if not a very solid Starter ) in the draft.

    I'm not saying that there is any guarantees that you can get a Franchise level player....but at least with a top 10 pick....if you do your scouting right you can get a future Starter for your team that can effectively contribute.

    Although it's always nice to draft the next Michael Jordan in the draft......since most are few and far between......drafting the next Scottie Pippen would go a very long way to improving this team. It's been said many times before.....given the core of players that we have....we just need to draft the right type of talent that is NBA ready that can help us now.

    I'm not hoping for the next Franchise player in the upcoming Draft....I know that we're not going to get a high enough draft pick to even get near Beasley. I'm just hoping that we draft someone that makes sense for us ( as in not drafting yet another SF that can shoot ) while filling a definite need for us ( as in drafting a solid Guard or a Big Man that can defend ).
    Last edited by CableKC; 02-22-2008 at 11:36 AM.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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