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Thread: Which is better for the Pacers, high draft pick or playoffs?

  1. #51
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which is better for the Pacers, high draft pick or playoffs?

    To tell you the truth... These past couple of wins has got people just a little too up. I don't think we have to worry too much about 6th seeds and the like.

    Keep Jim Mora in mind here...

    Playoffs? Playoffs? PLAYOFFS?

    -Bball
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  2. #52
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which is better for the Pacers, high draft pick or playoffs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    I'm starting to swing back in this direction. I want Danny to get as much experience as possible, and I doubt he's the only player on this team who will be here when things start getting good again. I'm resigned to having about the 16th pick and being done with it. Let's go for the extra time played.

    If I felt we were destined to land, say, the 8th pick I'd probably stick with the "go get the talent!" I've been posting and talking about lately. But the more I've thought it over tonight and the more I've talked about it with a couple of people tonight, the more convinced I am that that's just not where this team is headed. If they do dive, then that's good in regards to talent. But I think we're going to see a small comeback that will land us in the 8th or 7th (God, more of that) seed. In that scenario, failure to make the playoffs is probably at best a 5 pick jump up the draft, and at that point I'd probably encourage them to go for the playoffs above all else. In fact, I'm not worried about it one way or the other because they will not tank, nor should they.
    The whole point of my post and one that most posters missed badly!

  3. #53
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which is better for the Pacers, high draft pick or playoffs?

    Ok this is really a tough question for me.

    Like Bball I too believe that there will be to much satisfaction in the front office of just making the 8th seed of the playoffs. There will be articles about the accomplishment of this season because we are back in the the playoffs.

    So on that level, no I have no desire to see the playoffs.

    However I also am vastly differant from many of you. I do not see a far reaching lack of talent that all of you see.

    That's right I said it, I don't see this team lacking in talent.

    What I see is that this team lacks a couple of big guns and in fact I think the talent around the big guns would be better than most. I said a couple of weeks ago and I'll say it again. Replace the names O'neal & Tinsley with Duncan & Parker and you are talking a 50 win team. But if you are going to say that "Of course Duncan and Parker will get you there" then change the names O'Neal & Tinsley with Boozer & Williams and you are still looking at about a 50 win team.

    Our problem is not the Dunleavy's, Foster's & Granger's of the world. Our proble is that our franchise has hitched it's saddle to two lame horses and has for years.

    The best way out of this for everybody would be for the Pacers to trade either (both preferably) and get a high draft pick and young players in return. Not going to happen, but hey it would be nice.

    Anyway back on point.

    Also in my "I don't care to see the playoffs" thought is this. I will say this emphatically.

    I do NOT want O'Neal or Tinsley back the rest of the season.

    Now if they do not come back and we make the playoffs, great.

    However to me the absolute worst thing that could happen would be for us to get O'Neal back just in time for the playoffs to where we once again will change our style of play and nobody will gain any experiance at being more than a third banana behind the Jermaine & Jamaal show.

    But we will have to hear how if we could just get the two of them healthy for a full season we could be a factor.

    However I don't want this to be left out either. For those of you that are so fascinated with high lottery picks I won't go very far to look at something.

    I present you the current Indiana Pacers. Mike Dunleavey # 3 in the draft. Ike Diagu # 9 in the draft.

    Please spare me the, they were bad picks speech. While neither was a concensus player, neither were rated much lower than where they went either. Now Mike by far and away is not a flop, however does anybody here consider him to be the franchise player a team would build around?

    Ike anyone?

    Also some of you guys are young and believe me I know this is going to come off sounding like some old man talk, which it is, but believe me guys I've lived through lottery pick after lottery pick.

    Waymond Tisdale, Steve Stepanovich, Rik Smits, Clark Kellogg, Herb Williams, Chuck Person. Each and every one of them fine players in their own rights but none of which would you consider franchise players. However each of them were good professionals.

    Waymond, Steve & Rik were all seleceted # 2 in the draft btw.

    I'm rambling, let me see if I can clear this up.

    My official position is this. If the team that is present on the floor right now plays out the rest of the year and we don't have to keep jumping our star players in & out of our lineup then I would not mind being the sacrificial lamb just so Danny, Mike, Troy, Shawne, Travis & Kareem can get some playoff experiance.

    However if J.O. & Jamaal do come back my preferance would be to still try and win games but I would not be upset at all if we don't make it because there will be no growth, no learning and there will be to much self satisfaction.

  4. #54
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    Default Re: Which is better for the Pacers, high draft pick or playoffs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    That's right I said it, I don't see this team lacking in talent.

    What I see is that this team lacks a couple of big guns and in fact I think the talent around the big guns would be better than most.
    Every team in the league would love to add a big gun, even those teams that already have one (or 2). Adding Duncan and Parker would make contenders out of just about every team in the league that doesn't already have them.

    Everybody is looking for that dominant player.

    Hey, that's why the Pacers committed to Jermaine to begin with. When he was 22-24, he seemed to have all the tools of being the prototype bigman that every team in the league craves. If a 20 year old prospect enters the draft with the type of size, skill and athleticism Jermaine had when he was that young, every team in the league would be foaming at the mouth at the sight of him.

  5. #55
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    Default Re: Which is better for the Pacers, high draft pick or playoffs?

    playoffs....i bet we beat boston.
    "GIMMIE DAT!"-DANGER

  6. #56
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which is better for the Pacers, high draft pick or playoffs?

    I agree with Peck on this issue, but maybe with a twist.

    If the Pacers deserve to make the playoffs, I want them in the playoffs. And I say in order to make the playoffs an NBA team should have at least a .500 record. So if the Pacers win 41 games, then yes I want them in the playoffs.

    Draft picks don't really excite me, but then I don't follow college at all, so I have no idea about any of the players and I don't even think about the draft until a couple of days before the actual draft in late June.

    But one thing I never will do is root for the Pacers to lose, I just can't.

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    Default Re: Which is better for the Pacers, high draft pick or playoffs?

    Two points.

    1. I always root for my team (Pacers) to win every game.
    2. High draft choices do not always work out.....how many top 5 draft picks end up being all stars????...I don't have the figures but I'm pretty sure it's less than half.

  8. #58

    Default Re: Which is better for the Pacers, high draft pick or playoffs?

    I'm still not convinced at all that hiring Bird as GM was a wise move.
    But I do know one thing about him. The collective FO may be satisfied
    at grabbing the 7th or 8th seed and making the playoffs. But Bird sure
    as heck won't be.

  9. #59
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which is better for the Pacers, high draft pick or playoffs?

    Last time I checked, Big guns were talented players! We still need talent. The ways to get big guns:

    Free Agency (no way)
    Draft (highly unlikely unless a low pick surprises)
    Trade (ding ding ding)

    Now, how does one trade for a big gun? JO won't get you that. Tinsley sure won't get you that. The only way to maybe get a big gun is to have enough supplemental talent (Dunleavy/Foster/Granger [who is on that bubble between this and a big gun right now]) that you can trade it for a team looking to move a big gun you want. Think Boston this summer. Especially the Ray Allen deal (we don't have an Al Jefferson to offer).

    But my bigger overall point: A lack of big guns is a lack in talent!

  10. #60
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which is better for the Pacers, high draft pick or playoffs?

    Also, can we please stop with this argument that "Well, the draft may not work out, so don't even consider it a good option if we get there!"

  11. #61
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which is better for the Pacers, high draft pick or playoffs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    Also, can we please stop with this argument that "Well, the draft may not work out, so don't even consider it a good option if we get there!"
    Were it up to me, the draft wouldn't be mentioned except on draft lotterry day (if the Pacers are in the lottery) and a few days before the actual draft.

  12. #62
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    Default Re: Which is better for the Pacers, high draft pick or playoffs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    However to me the absolute worst thing that could happen would be for us to get O'Neal back just in time for the playoffs to where we once again will change our style of play and nobody will gain any experiance at being more than a third banana behind the Jermaine & Jamaal show.
    My money is on this happening. Like always......TPTB Modus Operandi is to "simply make the playoffs".

    If TPTB are in touch with reality....they too realize that without a healthy JONeal and ( obviously debateable ) Tinsley in the lineup that the current team is not good enough to jump ahead of the pack to get that last playoff spot. We are currently ahead of the pack of the Eastern Conference pack of mediocre teams that are making a run for the Plaoyffs. The Pacers are 1 game out of the 8th Spot amd 2 games out of the 7th spot.....my guess is that TPTB are thinking that if we are in the "thick of the hunt for the last spot in the Playoffs" without JONeal and Tinsley in the lineup.......imagine how we would be with a healthy JONeal and Tinsley in the lineup.

    The problem is that the reason that we are only 1 game behind the Nets for the 8th spot is because the rest of the Eastern Conference really sucks. Unlike any other season......we were merely lucky that our recent 7 game losing streak didn't push us so far out of the Playoffs that it would be pointless for JONeal to return.

    My guess it that TPTB will likely shut JONeal and Tinsley down for the next 2 weeks, pray that the 5 other teams that are within 4 games of the 8th Playoff spot suck as much as we do during that stretch and then have them return sometime between the end of the ASB to the 1st week in March to make a push for the Playoffs.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  13. #63
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which is better for the Pacers, high draft pick or playoffs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    Also, can we please stop with this argument that "Well, the draft may not work out, so don't even consider it a good option if we get there!"
    Only if we can also stop with the "we need the pacers to lose every game the rest of the season because anybody picked in the top 10 is a sure fired all-star".

  14. #64
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    Default Re: Which is better for the Pacers, high draft pick or playoffs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    If the Pacers deserve to make the playoffs, I want them in the playoffs. And I say in order to make the playoffs an NBA team should have at least a .500 record. So if the Pacers win 41 games, then yes I want them in the playoffs.

    Draft picks don't really excite me, but then I don't follow college at all, so I have no idea about any of the players and I don't even think about the draft until a couple of days before the actual draft in late June.

    But one thing I never will do is root for the Pacers to lose, I just can't.
    In order for us to have a .500 record....we have to win 20 out of the next 31 games.....that 2 out of 3 games for the rest of the season.

    Do you think that we are capable of doing that?

    My guess is that we're not that good.

    Unfortunately, the LEastern Conference is so bad this season....that any team can likely get that final spot to lose against the Celtics by backing into the 8th spot. If get the 8th Playoff spot.....we're not going to earn it....we're going to be handed it on a silver platter.
    Last edited by CableKC; 02-11-2008 at 01:03 PM.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  15. #65
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which is better for the Pacers, high draft pick or playoffs?

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    In order for us to have a .500 record....we have to win 20 out of the next 31 games.....that 2 out of 3 games for the rest of the season.

    Do you think that we are capable of doing that?

    My guess is that we're not that good.

    Unfortunately, the LEastern Conference is so bad this season....that any team can likely get that final spot to lose against the Celtics by backing into the 8th spot. If get the 8th Playoff spot.....we're not going to earn it....we're going to be handed it on a silver platter.
    20-11 - probably not, although the schedule after these next two games and besides a 5 games stretch at the beginning of march is pretty easy. I suppose if JT and JO came back after the allstar game healthy and really wanting to win, then I think 20-11 is possible - but that isn't going to happen. But a 15-16 record is most likely, which won't get us in. I figure making the playoffs or not making the playoffs will take care of itself.

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    Default Re: Which is better for the Pacers, high draft pick or playoffs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Nope. It teaches your players to win.

    Imagine if Reggie hadn't been in the playoffs in 92 or 93. You think we'd have gotten to the ECFs in '94?

    Yeah, we need more talent. But we also need the guys we have to take winning seriously. And tanking out of the playoffs isn't the way to do that.
    Winning teaches winning. Losing does not. Getting into the playoffs with a losing record teaches how many things about winning and how many things about losing?

    It's time to start swimming instead of just keeping our mouths above water because this franchise is sinking in a number of different ways. Getting rid of problem players and actually winning more games than losing would be a pretty good place to start.

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    Default Re: Which is better for the Pacers, high draft pick or playoffs?

    I am currently in the camp that would like to see the high draft pick rather
    than the playoffs because:

    A.) Playoffs this year likely mean that we will be swept in humiliating fashion
    by whoever we might play (if we even make it in). I don't think this would
    teach much of anything other than how many more fans of the other team
    than Pacers fans there are running around town.

    B.) Getting a high draft pick is such a rare occurance for us that it would be
    nice for a change, and might generate excitement.

    C.) I simply don't think the Pacers deserve to be in the playoffs at this point.

    If they were to go on an extended winning streak and really start building
    some momentum, I might change my tune though.
    Last edited by RamBo_Lamar; 02-11-2008 at 03:18 PM.

  18. #68
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    Default Re: Which is better for the Pacers, high draft pick or playoffs?

    Quote Originally Posted by OnlyPacersLeft View Post
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    playoffs....i bet we beat boston.
    If we beat Boston in the playoffs I'll let you select my avatar for the entire offseason.

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    Default Re: Which is better for the Pacers, high draft pick or playoffs?

    Quote Originally Posted by OnlyPacersLeft View Post
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    playoffs....i bet we beat boston.
    Heh... Are you sure you haven't been spending too much time over at
    David Harrison's place?

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    Default Re: Which is better for the Pacers, high draft pick or playoffs?

    Here's some info on draft picks from 1994-2003 (10 drafts). I didn't include 2004 on since it's still too early for those players.


    ALL-STARS PICKED 1-5
    • Glenn Robinson (#1, 1994, x2)
    • Allen Iverson (#1, 1996, x8)
    • Tim Duncan (#1, 1997, x10)
    • Elton Brand (#1, 1999, x2)
    • Kenyon Martin (#1, 2000, x1)
    • Yao Ming (#1, 2002, x5)
    • LeBron James (#1, 2003, x4)
    • Jason Kidd (#2, 1994, x8)
    • Antonio McDyess (#2, 1995, x1)
    • Steve Francis (#2, 1999, x3)
    • Grant Hill (#3, 1994, x7)
    • Jerry Stackhouse (#3, 1995, x2)
    • Shareef Abdur-Rahim (#3, 1996, x1)
    • Chauncey Billups (#3, 1997, x3
    • Baron Davis (#3, 1999, x2)
    • Pau Gasol (#3, 2001, x1)
    • Carmelo Anthony (#3, 2003, x2)
    • Rasheed Wallace (#4, 1995, x4)
    • Stephon Marbury (#4, 1996, x2)
    • Antawn Jamison (#4, 1998, x2)
    • Chris Bosh (#4, 2003, x3)
    • Juwan Howard (#5, 1994, x1)
    • Kevin Garnett (#5, 1995, x11)
    • Ray Allen (#5, 1996, x7)
    • Vince Carter (#5, 1998, x8)
    • Dwyane Wade (#5, 2003, x4)

    All-Stars: 26/50 (52%)
    Total All-Star Appearances: 104
    MVP Awards: 4 (Iverson, Duncan x2, Garnett)
    Finals MVP Awards: 5 (Duncan x3, Billups, Wade)
    Defensive Player of the Year Awards: 1 (Camby)
    Sixth Man of the Year Awards: 2 (M. Miller, Jamison)
    Notable Non-All-Stars: M. Dunleavy, T. Chandler, E. Curry, J. Richardson, M. Miller, L. Odom, M. Bibby, K. Van Horn, M. Camby



    ALL-STARS PICKED 6-10
    • Antoine Walker (#6, 1996, x3)
    • Wally Szczerbiak (#6, 1999, x1)
    • Richard Hamilton (#7, 1999, x3)
    • Tracy McGrady (#9, 1997, x7)
    • Dirk Nowitzki (#9, 1998, x7)
    • Shawn Marion (#9, 1999, x4)
    • Amare Stoudemire (#9, 2002, x3)
    • Eddie Jones (#10, 1994, x3)
    • Paul Pierce (#10, 1998, x6)
    • Joe Johnson (#10, 2001, x2)
    • Caron Butler (#10, 2002, x2)

    All-Stars: 11/50 (22%)
    Total All-Star Appearances: 41
    MVP Awards: 1 (Nowitzki)
    Finals MVP Awards: 0
    Defensive Player of the Year Awards: 0
    Sixth Man of the Year Awards:
    Notable Non-All-Stars: C. Kaman, K. Hinrich, T.J. Ford, Nene, C. Wilcox, S. Battier, A. Miller, J. Terry, Jason Williams, L. Hughes, E. Dampier, D. Stoudemire



    ALL-STARS PICKED 11-15
    • Kobe Bryant (#13, 1996, x10)
    • Peja Stojakovic (#14, 1996, x3)
    • Steve Nash (#15, 1996, x5)

    All-Stars: 3/50 (6%)
    Total All-Star Appearances: 18
    MVP Awards: 2 (Nash 2x)
    Finals MVP Awards: 0
    Defensive Player of the Year Awards: 0
    Sixth Man of the Year Awards: 1 (Williamson)
    Notable Non-All-Stars: R. Jefferson, T. Murphy, C. Maggette, B. Wells, M. Harpring, C. Williamson, B. Barry, J. Rose



    ALL-STARS PICKED 16-20
    • David West (#18, 2003, x1)
    • Jamaal Magloire (#19, 2000, x1)
    • Ron Artest (#16, 1999, x1)
    • Jermaine O'Neal (#17, 1996, x5)
    • Zydrunas Ilgauskas (#20, 1996, x2)
    • Theo Ratliff (#18, 1995, x1)

    All-Stars: 6/50 (12%)
    Total All-Star Appearances: 11
    MVP Awards: 0
    Finals MVP Awards: 0
    Defensive Player of the Year Awards: 1 Artest)
    Sixth Man of the Year Awards: 1 (McKie)
    Notable Non-All-Stars: Z. Randolph, B. Haywood, H. Turkoglu, Q. Richardson, J. Posey, A. McKie



    ALL-STARS PICKED 21-25
    • Andrei Kirilenko (#24, 1999, x1)
    • Michael Finley (#21, 1995, x2)

    All-Stars: 2/50 (4%)
    Total All-Star Appearances: 3
    MVP Awards: 0
    Finals MVP Awards: 0
    Defensive Player of the Year Awards: 0
    Sixth Man of the Year Awards: 1 (B. Jackson)
    Notable Non-All-Stars: B. Diaw, T. Outlaw, T. Prince, N. Krstic, G. Wallace, M. Peterson, J. Foster, R. Davis, A. Harrington, B. Jackson, D. Fisher



    ALL-STARS PICKED 26-30
    • Tony Parker (#28, 2001, x2)
    • Josh Howard (#29, 2003, x1)

    All-Stars: 2/50 (4%)
    Total All-Star Appearances: 3
    MVP Awards: 0
    Finals MVP Awards: 1 (Parker)
    Defensive Player of the Year Awards: 0
    Sixth Man of the Year Awards: 1 (Barbosa)
    Notable Non-All-Stars: L. Barbosa, S. Dalembert, J. Tinsley, G. Ostertag, C. Ward



    ALL-STARS PICKED 31+
    • Carlos Boozer (#34, 2002, x2)
    • Gilbert Arenas (#31, 2001, x3)
    • Mehmet Okur (#38, 2001, x1)
    • Michael Redd (#43, 2000, x1)
    • Manu Ginobili (#57, 1999, x1)
    • Rashard Lewis (#32, 1998, x1)
    • Brad Miller (Undrafted, 1998, x2)
    • Ben Wallace (Undrafted, 1996, x4)

    All-Stars: 8/280+ (< 3%)
    Total All-Star Appearances: 15
    MVP Awards: 0
    Finals MVP Awards: 0
    Defensive Player of the Year Awards: 4 (Wallace x4)
    Notable Non-All-Stars: Mo Williams, S. Jackson, K. Korver, U. Haslem, R. Bell

  21. #71
    Member indyman37's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which is better for the Pacers, high draft pick or playoffs?

    ^JO went in the '96 draft with Kobe, Peja, and Nash. That had crazy amounts of talent in it.

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    Default Re: Which is better for the Pacers, high draft pick or playoffs?

    My studies have shown me more than ever the Pacers need a top-10 pick. Only 3 All-Stars drafted between #11-15 in the decade of 1994-2003? Pathetic. Picks 6-10 may not be sure things, but you're nearly 4x as likely to find an All-Star in that range than the next 5 picks. Personally, I think we need to make a move to secure a top-5 pick. If our own pick lands in the 7-9 range, it's possible to package it with someone in order to move up to say, #5, to practically guarantee one of Gordon, Rose, or Mayo. It's very possible, and anyone who says otherwise hasn't been paying attention lately. In 2005, the Jazz jumped up from #6 to #3 with two late 1st's as incentive. In 2004, the Bobcats moved up from #4 to #2 using the #33 pick and taking Peja Drobnjak's meager 3/$10M contract off of the Clippers.

  23. #73
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    Default Re: Which is better for the Pacers, high draft pick or playoffs?

    I just think it's funny that everyone thinks there's a huge element of choice in this whole matter. If we suck, we're gonna get a Top 6-10 pick. If we only kinda suck, we'll sneak into the playoffs and get a pick between 14-18.

    I can't get over the feeling you're arguing whether it would be better if the ball in the spinning roulette wheel stopped on black or red. There's no real way to alter the outcome, so why not just watch it spin and wait?

    I mean, no one in this organization is gonna start trying to lose games. And with the parity of talent on our team our W-L record isn't gonna be affected greatly whether or not Shawne or Murphy gets more minutes.
    Last edited by JayRedd; 02-11-2008 at 04:46 PM.

  24. #74
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    Default Re: Which is better for the Pacers, high draft pick or playoffs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Only if we can also stop with the "we need the pacers to lose every game the rest of the season because anybody picked in the top 10 is a sure fired all-star".
    Well, you do your part then we'll worry about the other.

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    Default Re: Which is better for the Pacers, high draft pick or playoffs?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    I just think it's funny that everyone thinks there's a huge element of choice in this whole matter. If we suck, we're gonna get a Top 6-10 pick. If we only kinda suck, we'll sneak into the playoffs and get a pick between 14-18.

    No one in the organization is gonna try to lose games and with the parity of talent on our team our W-L record isn't gonna be affected greatly whether or not Shawne or Murphy gets more minutes.
    Everyone here would take a 50+ win team if given the choice, even the Think Tank Crew. Personally, I've accepted the losing and have decided to look at the positives of a high draft pick and the excitement a talented young player would bring to this team. A pick in the top-10 could easily fetch a prospect greater than Granger. If we had people comparing Danny to Pippen during his rookie season, imagine the excitement of having, say, O.J. Mayo in a Pacers uniform.

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