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Thread: Let's Discuss Some Real Cures to What Ails the Pacers

  1. #1

    Default Let's Discuss Some Real Cures to What Ails the Pacers

    This is gonna be a long one, boys and girls. So, sit down with your afternoon mocha lotte' and prepare to analyse this...

    I wanted to start this thread on Saturday after that dreadful lose to the Heat, but decided against it. The wound was still too deep then. It's not much better today, but I figured I could discuss things with a more opened mind today than on Saturday evening.

    After reading this article on IndyStar.com this morning, I began to think back to my original thoughts for this thread. It's interesting that some of the comments made were very much in-line with my initial thoughts some of which I'll share herein.

    "For the Pacers, making a run in the standings will be considerably less difficult if they find a way to stop giving up runs within games. Their fast-paced, perimeter-based offense gives up points in waves when their shooting and defense falter simultaneously."

    This goes back to that old basketball saying, "Live by the 3, Die by the 3!"

    From the article, "We live and die by it," guard Kareem Rush said. "When it's going, it's the greatest thing in the world, but when it's not, everybody calls it a curse. But we're going to keep playing this way. We're still getting accustomed to it, but it's been effective."

    "They (Pacers) are susceptible to stretches of cold shooting because they don't use a post-up threat, but O'Brien is committed to his 'small ball' approach for the rest of the season."

    The above snipets from the article are very true. When their deep ball is falling, the Pacers are a threatening team because it's very difficult to cover 3-4 shooters. However, there in lies the problem. There are too many of them! There's no balance out there! Let me explain what I mean.

    In order for the small-ball line-up to truly be effective, you have to have two additional elements to the game:

    1) a dominate post-presence; and,

    2) dribble penetration.

    Currently, the Pacers have none of the first w/o JO and very little of the second. Or to put it more accurately, they don't use dribble penetration very effectively. Why? Consider the following...

    How many players on this team can truly take their man off the dribble and not only get TO the basket, but finish?

    Tinsley can back-post his man, but even he has a somewhat difficult time being a true finisher at the rim.

    Rush has tried often, but he still sees himself as more of a jump shooter than a dribble penetrator. Though he can do it, he still has trouble getting through defenses and getting to the rim.

    Dunleavy and Quis...forget about it! Both tend to turn the ball over on dribble penetration. But at least Dunleavy is effective at getting to the basket on back-door cuts. So, I'll give him that.

    Travis Deiner is quick enough to get there and you'd think that his size would give him an advantage in that regard against larger defenders, but he doesn't try often enough, and in most cases he's going against taller PGs who are just as fast as he.

    That leaves Granger and Andre Owens. Granger can take his man off the dribble and get to the basket, but he struggles to finish at the rim about as much as Dunleavy. But at least Granger can get there nearly any time he wants. I think Granger's starting to feel his way into the game alot more, but because his roles have once again changed so radically this year - SF to SG to PF - it's tough for him to figure out just what style of play to use at various positions in order to be more effective. Owens is the one player on this team who can get to the rim any time he wants. His problem is he's NOT a very good finisher.

    Now, let's talk about the teams collective group of "shooters"....

    Dunleavey, Granger, Rush, Murphy, Deiner, Owens, Williams and occasionally Tinsley, Quis and Graham whenever he's allowed to play . That's 10 of 15 players who have all been given the green light to shoot from the perimeter. Too many! Why? Because when you give this kind of freedom to players to take the 3-pt shot they tend to get shot happy and foget about the other parts of their game, i.e., dribble penetration, step-in 2-pt shots, curls and mid-range jump shots. Now, mind you I still believe that small-ball is the best way for this team to go as it is currently formed, BUT I think it's beyond time to sit players down and tell them "here is your role...this is what I want YOU to use as your primary weapon to score the ball". The philosophy of taking a wide open, uncontested "3" is a good one, but IMO only certain players should be taking that shot!

    Shawne Williams, for example, is a SF. It's great that he can make that shot, but isn't he also suppose to have a post-up game? When was the last time anybody saw him post-up his man?

    Troy Murphy, we all know, is a Center/PF who would rather play like SF/SG than stay in the post and bang w/the big boys.

    Tinsley and Quis are too inconsistent to even allow them the opportunity to shoot from the perimeter. To that, I am happy to see that Tinsley has gotten the message since his disasterous display on Jan 9 against the Suns to be a distributor first, scorer second. But w/o his post-up play I think the team has gone a bit stagnet. He's the only other player besides JO who could slow the game down enough and be a threat in the post. That's the element to the game this team is truly missing. So, how do they fix things?

    1) Identify the shooters! The primary three IMO are Dunleavy, Granger, Rush. This doesn't mean that others shouldn't take the shot. Just make it clear that they are to take the "open" shot only if no other scoring options present themselves, i.e., no trailer coming down the lane for a quick layup/dunk, they are not in transition for an uncontested perimeter shot, the shot clock is winding down. Otherwise, it's Dunleavy, Granger and Rush as the team's primary 3-point shooters.

    2) Have everyone else use other aspects of their game to score, i.e., Deiner, Tinsley, Quis, Owens should all use dribble penetration as thier first means to score. Tinsley and Quis should continue to limit their 3-PAs to "shot clock" type situations. Owens and Deiner should take the 3-pt shot only under the conditions mentioned in item #1 above.

    3) Williams should be using more of his athleticism to get to the basket instead of taking 3's. He's very capable of doing both, but as a Big (SF), he should be going baseline and posting up his defender more than merely taking jump shots.

    4) I really wish Murphy would play more underneath the basket, but since he won't the team will continue to rely on Foster as a post-presence while JO is out. As much as I admire Foster's work ethic, he's just not a scoring threat down low. But he's one heck of a rebounder and off the ball defender.

    Small ball can work for this team, but players have to be willing to use other aspects of their game in order to be effective. Again, it's about balance, and right now I don't think this team has much of it because just about everybody wants to be a jump shooter and very few want to penetrate the lanes and actually get to the basket. Fewer still are willing to pound underneath the basket. It's going to take every player rethinking his approach to the game, but IMO it's more about players knowing their roles than anything else. To that, I think JOB has to rethink his approach to the game just a little bit.

    Sidenote: The biggest change JOB could make is to play Graham more. I think he's a more athletic player than Quis and plays stronger perimeter defense. Besides, the bench has struggled to keep scoring drives alive. I think this kid can help in that regard. If it's a matter of finding minutes, I'd say skim alittle off the top of Deiner and Quis' minutes...maybe even Rush's, too, since he's still playing with an injury.
    Last edited by NuffSaid; 01-29-2008 at 10:32 AM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Let's Discuss Some Real Cures to What Ails the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by NuffSaid View Post
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    Now, mind you I still believe that small-ball is the best way for this team to go as it is currently formed, BUT I think it's beyond time to sit players down and tell them "here is your role...this is what I want YOU to use as your primary weapon to score the ball". The philosophy of taking a wide open, uncontested "3" is a good one, but IMO only certain players should be taking that shot!
    Although it's going to take some time for me to fully digest your post.....the first thing I thought of when I read this part of your post was what a friend of mine ( whose a Warrior fan ) told me about Nellie and how he runs a similiar "Warriors' Small Ball offense. Nellie has no problem with players run the offense as they see fit and jacking up so many 3pt shots........the ONLY REQUIREMENT that he has is that IF a player takes a shot ( 3pt or otherwise ), it better be a shot that they are REALLY good at taking.

    If Tinsley was on the Warriors and he took WAY too many 3pt shots.....Nellie would bench Tinsley the second he started doing that and start PO'B in front of him until he figured out that he shouldn't be taking that many 3pt shots.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Let's Discuss Some Real Cures to What Ails the Pacers

    CableKC,

    What you've said about "taking the kind of shot a player is REALLY GOOD at taking" is only part of it. I think too many players on this team are taking "that shot" and most have completely forgotten about using other parts of their game to be effective.

    I'm proud of Kareem Rush because he's figured it out! He struggled earlier in the season, but when his 3-pter wasn't falling he started using other parts of his game to be effective. (It also helps that he's playing some strong defense out there at his position.)

    Owens has figured it out and is probably the best on-the-ball defensive PG we have. He's also not afraid to take it to the hole. His problem is he struggles to finish. But I give him credit! He'll dribble-drive every chance he gets!!

    Everyone else seems to have fallen in love with the long ball. Very few are actually trying to get to the rim. As such, the Pacers have been made to be a jump shooting team....or rather, they've turned themselves into such which is a shame because the very one-dimensional aspect JO didn't want the team to become...well, w/o him (and Tinsley) they are just another jump shooting team. The only way that chances is for players to rethink their approach to the game and for certain players to be identified to fulfil certain roles.

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    Default Re: Let's Discuss Some Real Cures to What Ails the Pacers

    To me, every one of our problems starts on the defensive end of the court.

    Unfortunately, I really think that these problems can only be solved with players who are not currently on our roster.

    We need a shot-blocking, rebounding presence on the interior. With JO out of the lineup, we are suffering badly in this area.

    Also, with the current roster, we have a big problem with our perimeter players. For our offense to work well, we need to have two creator/distributor/ball-handlers on the floor at all times. There are only 5 of these guys on the team: Tinsley, Diener, Owens, Dunleavy, Daniels. For our defense to work well, we need to have two average to above average defenders on the perimeter. Only Daniels, Granger, Rush, and Owens fit this description.

    What this all says is that we don't have the players on the roster to play a lineup that is effective on both ends of the court at the same time.

    If I were in charge, I'd do anything in my power to get my hands on a guy who could both create for others on offense and who played strong defense.
    "A man with no belly has no appetite for life."

    - Salman Rushdie

  5. #5
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Discuss Some Real Cures to What Ails the Pacers

    Nuff - I think you are right about the balance of skill sets, the team does have too many shooters, though not enough ace shooters.

    You might want to remove Troy and Shawne from that mix and have them work inside, but the fact is that both of them are BETTER outside. That's not inherently a problem, but as you say when you already have guys to do that then it becomes redundant.


    Danny is learning to finish and getting better. I was going to start a thread on his improvement with the dribble drive.

    Dun is an off-on finisher, he has his moments of both great and awful attempts. I like him far better catching the ball coming to the rim than going off dribble, but then that's true with his entire game. He's typically a stud scorer on the catch and blah off dribble.

    Quis is fine when he actually gets a layup, in fact he's better than fine. BUT he isn't great passing out of penetration and lately has been settling for mid-jumpers too much.

    Tins is non-factor and has NEVER been good at finishing at the rim for whatever reason. See the end to his NCAA tourney run which featured him missing a layup even (IIRC).

    To me Shawne is like Danny, a great spot-up shooter and better from the triple threat. Neither are guys that are going to be legit post threats anytime soon, even vs other SFs.

    Rush is actually becoming one of the best dribble drive scorers on the team, but I'm not sure about his passing from that any more than Quis.


    So the question becomes who can drive for both the SCORE or ASSIST? Do they really have that? Some guys can pass it but teams know they aren't a great finisher, other guys can't pass and teams can double onto them when they get inside to deny the score.

    The team badly needs some redistribution of talent. Isn't it amazing that they have a worse wing logjam than when they had Ron/Al/Bender and decided to trade Al to get another true SG instead.

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    Default Re: Let's Discuss Some Real Cures to What Ails the Pacers

    My questions are:

    What kind of a go-to scorer does Danny Granger compliment?

    What kind of a go-to scorer does Mike Dunleavy compliment?

  7. #7
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Discuss Some Real Cures to What Ails the Pacers

    If I'm fixing the team then I'm taking a big picture approach. So if the Simons gave me the team this is what I'd do:

    The fat would be getting trimmed from the upper echelons of management. There will be some offices emptying out. If your title has "assistant", "Vice President", or similar in it then you better be ready for a job saving interview.

    Besides that, I'd want to hear what the current management group sees for the Pacers and just what their vision is... and then I share mine. And we better be on the same page in the end.

    First and foremost: Accountability. That should go from the last player on the bench, to the 'star', to the head coach, to the assistant coaches, and right on up the food chain.

    There would be no playing favorites and any media campaign will not be derailed by any of the above or else I will be stepping in. I would not be 'hands off' IF those under me do not adhere to the vision we've agreed to for the team. I wouldn't do an end-around though. If the coach fails to do his part, I go to management and hold them accountable.

    There would be no doubt whose role is what and a clear pecking order would be established from owners to players. It would be known both internally and externally exactly what pieces of the TPTB are responsible for what.

    There would be a new goal established for the team. "NBA Championship for Indianapolis". Does that mean a championship is expected every season? No... but it means every season is to be a piece of the puzzle towards that.

    I have a major problem with a goal of simply reaching the playoffs. That sets the bar too low. In fact, when the East is weak like now, it makes it a pathetic goal. One thing about setting a goal too low is what do you do when you get there? IMO, if you're striving for a championship LOTS of other stuff takes care of itself. For one thing, the fans can see and chart your progress and buy into it emotionally. For the other, if you're building toward a championship then you'll be making the playoffs along the way anyway. The difference is, there's much more to go for. You can't smile and become fat and happy just because you've made your 'goal'. Management better not be satisfied just to make the playoffs nor should the fanbase. There's still work to be done until a that banner hangs from the rafters.

    I also want management to put away the blank checkbooks. If I'm going to pay 'Tim Duncan' type money, I better see Tim Duncan on the floor in a Pacer uniform. "Patience" would be gaged in months, not years. I'd rather cut my losses and let a player explode on me down the road than hang onto a bust and let an underachiever (let alone overpaid underachiever) permeate the lockerroom. A player better be on track by his 2nd year, or else I expect changes either in the player or his zip code. I don't expect vintage Michael Jordan in year 2, but I better not be seeing a deer in the headlights look either. I wouldn't care to pay for a good team... but I see no reason to overpay selfish, me-first players in hopes that the money acts as a salve and they come around. It needs to be established that extensions and over the top contracts won't be handed out automatically any longer. You have to earn your money through performance and professionalism. And with pride in yourself and team...(Some current players need to take a look in a mirror- If they don't have a mirror, then I suggest using one of their recent mugshots!). Also, an injury history is going to be a factor. You can be the next Michael Jordan but it doesn't matter if your injuries continually keep you off the floor. A team needs to be a 'team' and learn to work together. It can't keep being torn apart by a player that can't be counted upon... for whatever reason.

    Coaching- I'm losing faith in JOB although it's still early and he's been given a flawed team. I do not like the offense I've been seeing nor do I like the lack of discipline I'm seeing on the court. Are the players really that dumb or is it bad coaching? I have never been in favor of a run and gun team. Running is one thing... gunning is another. I dislike running and gunning just as much as I dislike ISO Ball featuring a 40% FG PF. Ball movement, screening, player movement... I'm all for. And that is what I would expect. We don't see enough of it now. It just looks helter skelter many times. Not good. We're not breaking down the defense with ball and player movement. In my world, we would be or we'd be seeing changes.

    Part two of coaching: I believe offense sells tickets... but defense is what is going to win the championship. True, you can't throw all of your eggs into the defensive basket but OTOH if the balance has to be tipped one way or the other, in my world it would be tipped toward defense. This is really where I have a problem with O Brien right now. I thought we were told for the players to be allowed to have more control of the offense that they'd have to play defense for him. We are a sieve. We're all about gunning and then letting the other team shoot so we can go gunning again. The players' mindset doesn't seem to be about defense at all. On top of that, we have some weak defenders in the first place. That's even more of a reason NOT to be gunning on offense.

    I'm also a little questionable on his use of the bench. We're sucking, Graham plays a good game and then gets DNP-CD's while we're still sucking? Our 2nd year first round pick is finding minutes hard to come by while we're going nowhere with a team that is going nowhere as it's currently constructed??

    All players are treated equal except for those that are not? (See: JO's playing but not practicing after we were told that would not happen because it's not fair to the other players).

    Fans: I would market this team to the state of Indiana. There's too much focus on Indy only. True, right now it might be to their advantage NOT to showcase some of these players to the state, but that should be an aberration that we're going to turn around. I don't know what flexibility I'd have overall in getting the games on the air but I'd not want to have any road games not on TV... And I'd hope few (if any) home games would be unavailable. And finding the team on the radio anywhere in the state just shouldn't be a problem.

    In an effort to reconnect with fans, I'd offer some fan-friendly packages and even look into lowering ticket prices in many areas. I'd probably look into beefing up promotions as well (that doesn't mean more airplane races). But you can't just do this and expect it to carry the day to fill the seats... the product on the court has to improve. I'm not even sure I wouldn't start my first day with a full page 'open letter' to fans in the Star that explains my understanding of their disgust and apathy and spell out my vision for the team and some of the things they can expect to see as we move forward. I think current ownership (or management) should even consider doing the same and going so far as to offer an apology for losing their way. Afterall, when there's a disconnect with fans, that goes both way. That means TPTB have disconnected as well.

    I'd make sure my marketing campaign was not just words. Even if it costs me up front... In the end, credibility with fans is going to be what pays dividends. No double talk. No "He's not suspended, he's deactivated... and was sent home". I will say this: If I owned the team and saw Tinsley's display at the Suns game and how the coach handled it (or didn't handle it) you can rest assured that my manager's phone would be ringing immediately after the game wanting an explanation of what I just saw. And for his sake, I hope the phone is busy because he's already calling the coach about it.

    That type of display is EXACTLY what is killing fan interest in this team and these players. It would be nice to know (as a fan) that it isn't condoned.

    There should be a synergy between marketing and the product on the court. Marketing can't just be empty words. Team building should be dynamic and it should be pretty obvious what is being condoned and what is being stamped out. There should be some pride to be an Indiana Pacer and an organizational pride should be established with a fans, city, state, ownership, and management collectively. If someone goes astray ALL eyes should be upon them and they should be the exception, not the rule. Teammates should all be saying "You messed up!"... not sharing ideas on how to beat the drug test next time.

    I don't expect the players to be angels BUT they have to accept they are here to be professional basketball players first. The players have to be smart about what they do and the situations they allow themselves to be in off the court. The team also has to be willing to address issues at the root. You cannot convince me that the Pacers were totally blindsided by the Harrison suspension. They might not have known he'd already had 2 positive tests but I doubt they were overly surprised to learn it.

    Ownership needs to be ready to bite the bullet and do what needs to be done. That might mean spending some money now to save money (or keep from spending even more in the future). That might mean letting some longtime employees go. It might mean cutting losses with players even a little sooner than would otherwise be preferred. I really think management's and coaching's reluctance to deal honestly with many of the problems means someone in the upper echelons is going to need to be made to take the fall for allowing things to get this far off-kilter.

    The public KNOWS this team needs changes and is demanding it by turning more apathetic towards them. If management and ownership don't care enough to do what needs to be done, why should the fans buy into lip service and invest money and emotion into the team? They now need action, not words. It's obvious the words are hollow.

    Credibility and Accountability... you can't have one without the other. We have neither now.

    It starts at the top.


    -Bball
    Last edited by Bball; 01-29-2008 at 06:09 AM.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Let's Discuss Some Real Cures to What Ails the Pacers

    NuffSaid, I agree wit almost everything you wrote but I have to say that Bball's response is my early candidate for

    POST OF THE YEAR

    Man I'm right there with you on your thoughts how to run this team. VERY nice job!
    Maceo Baston's #1 fan on Pacers Digest!

  9. #9

    Default Re: Let's Discuss Some Real Cures to What Ails the Pacers

    Bball,

    Stop stealing my thunder, man!

    I agree with you 110%! The marketing strategy needs to change, the product on the floor needs to change, players and managements committment to winning needs to change. And to that it means placing the best players on the floor whether that player is a rookie or a 16 yr veteran.

    I think we all can agree that offense keeps you in the game, but defense wins ball games. It's a definite truism! So, that begs the question who are the team's best defenders at each position AND would you play them together? I'll take a stab at it:

    Center - Foster
    PF - JO
    PG - Owens
    SG - Rush (thought it could be argued that Dunleavy or the seldom played Graham are better)
    SF - Granger

    Now, how does that lineup change the dynamic of the team?

    From the perimeter, you're not going to get beat by many Guards on dribble penetration because you know Owens, Granger and Rush are committed to playing strong defense. But because Owens doesn't have the ball handling skills as say Tinsley or Deiner, that means you're bound to return to a more tranditional half-court offense. Can the fans live with that again? There are a few bright spots to playing Owens at the Point:

    1) As I said he will commit to playing strong defense. The man has no problem applying defensive pressure in the back-court.

    2) Three-point shooting from you Point Guard will improve. Owens has the highest 3PA% of all the PGs.

    3) He will rotate defensively and will not hestitate to tell his teammates when they're out of defensive position. I've seen him tell Quis on a number of occassions, "No, you should be over there covering that man!," when he rotates defensively. He knows that if he gets beat the worse thing you can do is have two defenders trying to track down the same man along the perimeter. So, he'll switch off, rotating to the open man and instructs his teammate to take up the defensive assignment on his man. Don't believe me? If you Tivo'd the last game against the Heat, go back and pay close attention to how Owens orchestrates the defense along the perimeter. I assure you neither Hinrich, Redd or Wade went off for 30+ pts while he was on guard along the perimeter. (Okay, so Owens only played about 2 minutes in that Bulls game, 9 minutes against the Bucks and about 13 minutes against the Heat, but it's so very true that neither Redd nor Wade were able to do much as long as they were guarded by the Pacers' strongest perimeter defenders. Owens played a big role in keeping both Redd and Wade under control as long as he was on the floor.) Not saying Owens is a lock-down defender. Just that he's one of a hand full of players on this Pacers roster who are committed to playing strong defense. Still, I'm convinced that had JOB gone with Owens at the Point to start the 3Q, Wade would never have gotten his game going nor would he have gained the confidence to take over the game in the 4Q. Frankly, JOB let him off the hook.
    Last edited by NuffSaid; 01-29-2008 at 11:20 AM.

  10. #10
    It is ka Thankee sai Major Cold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Discuss Some Real Cures to What Ails the Pacers

    A lot of people on this board wanted small ball. We got it but with players that do not compliment it. The trade last year really hurt no matter how you look at it. We have lost a huge step defensively. I applaud the Rush pickup but what I really don't understand is Daniels. He has no role. I know he is often injured, but it is obvious that he has not impressed the current staff. Jan. he has average significantly less points and his percentage is lower. He has no role on this team and I think that 20 mpg is more than enough time, but he needs to be utilized in that time.

    If we need penetration from our wings why isnt Daniels doing it?

    Danny Granger
    By ResultGMINFGM-FGAFG%3PM-3PA3P%FTM-FTAFT%STLBLKTOPFOFFDEFTOTASTPTS
    In wins1934.46.7-13.848.2892.5-4.9.5053.9-4.684.0911.321.212.13.51.35.16.31.719.7
    In losses2634.75.5-13.042.1831.4-4.7.2983.5-4.480.7020.850.812.33.51.24.55.72.015.9


    Mike Dunleavy
    By ResultGMINFGM-FGAFG%3PM-3PA3P%FTM-FTAFT%STLBLKTOPFOFFDEFTOTASTPTS
    In wins1935.77.3-14.152.0601.9-4.6.4203.9-4.684.0911.050.372.82.30.75.46.13.620.5
    In losses2634.05.4-11.845.7521.4-3.7.3813.4-3.987.1291.040.272.32.71.04.75.82.815.6


    Looking at those stats you may say duh!!! But we all know that Neither of these should be go to guys that the Pacers should soley relay to carry the scoring burden. That is why Rush is a good thing for this team.

    Jermaine O'Neal
    By ResultGMINFGM-FGAFG%3PM-3PA3P%FTM-FTAFT%STLBLKTOPFOFFDEFTOTASTPTS
    In wins1329.05.6-12.545.0620.0-0.0.0003.4-4.575.8620.852.622.43.72.34.77.02.514.6
    In losses2032.96.4-14.643.8360.0-0.2.0003.0-4.075.0000.352.002.73.02.25.37.52.615.8


    We all know that when JO is not the center cog of the offense he plays better. He should not get no more than 13 attempts if and when he comes back.

    We need a post presence. I like it when Tins backs down other PG. But it seems that other than him we dont have much help on the block. JO has the skill set but not the understanding of the changes and the constant injuries of course hurt this team.

    If we get healthy and players find roles then maybe we can make a mild run. I see no hot runs out of this team. I want to see consistency on both ends and we have yet to see that in......forever.

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    Default Re: Let's Discuss Some Real Cures to What Ails the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    My questions are:

    What kind of a go-to scorer does Danny Granger compliment?

    What kind of a go-to scorer does Mike Dunleavy compliment?
    Nice posts, gentlemen, but I'm still hoping I will see multiple answers to my questions and my post is quite hidden now.

  12. #12
    It is ka Thankee sai Major Cold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Discuss Some Real Cures to What Ails the Pacers

    I would say that Dunleavy would be good with a domiant inside presence.
    Hedo and Howard relationship.

    Danny I have no clue. I wish he would slash more. But since he is a spot jump shooter I would say a Gerald Wallace type.

    Wallace and Richardson work well together.

    Both of them would fair well with an elite PG. But who wouldn't.

    Dunleavy seems like a player to play a Manu role. 30 mpg off of the bench.

  13. #13
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Discuss Some Real Cures to What Ails the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    My questions are:

    What kind of a go-to scorer does Danny Granger compliment?

    What kind of a go-to scorer does Mike Dunleavy compliment?
    A) a legit post scorer like a Yao or Duncan

    B) a star PG/SG scorer like Eric Gordon


    I'm not sure I really get the question in fact. Take out JO due to injury. Now list the BEST player on every team in the NBA. Here it becomes either Dun or Danny right now. So here is this list with guys like Garnett, Wade, James, Redd, Billups/Rip, Vince, J Johnson, Bosh, Arenas/Butler, etc and Indy is putting up Dun/Danny.

    Clearly that's a major issue. No way you think of Dun/Danny as a scoring threat like any of those guys, not even Butler now.

    BTW, I know we all love a team game and all, but still...this team is one of the highest paced in the NBA, they score points. Top PPG guy is Dunleavy at 4 freaking 6th in the PPG list. That's the Pacers main threat, 46 on the list despite being a high scoring team with little bench depth.

    Lots of complimentary pieces asked to play starring roles right now. They need someone that can demand a double team and force real defensive movement, at least if they want to be a free flowing JOB offense where stars make plays (paraphrase of how he once discussed offense).

  14. #14
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Discuss Some Real Cures to What Ails the Pacers

    SG - Rush (thought it could be argued that Dunleavy or the seldom played Graham are better)
    On DEFENSE??? No, I don't think you could argue that. Rush is way ahead of Dun defensively, at least at SG.

    Owens is an okay defender, but he's made that a focus and is still way off the pace of being a great defender. All PG defenders get beat by great PGs, but the strongest defenders help slow them down at least. The Pacers just don't have that ability right now.


    BTW, off that topic, Danny 50%+ in wins and sub 30% in losses from 3!?! Talk about live by, die by.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 01-29-2008 at 12:28 PM.

  15. #15
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Discuss Some Real Cures to What Ails the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    If I'm fixing the team then I'm taking a big picture approach. So if the Simons gave me the team this is what I'd do:

    The fat would be getting trimmed from the upper echelons of management. There will be some offices emptying out. If your title has "assistant", "Vice President", or similar in it then you better be ready for a job saving interview.

    Besides that, I'd want to hear what the current management group sees for the Pacers and just what their vision is... and then I share mine. And we better be on the same page in the end.

    First and foremost: Accountability. That should go from the last player on the bench, to the 'star', to the head coach, to the assistant coaches, and right on up the food chain.

    There would be no playing favorites and any media campaign will not be derailed by any of the above or else I will be stepping in. I would not be 'hands off' IF those under me do not adhere to the vision we've agreed to for the team. I wouldn't do an end-around though. If the coach fails to do his part, I go to management and hold them accountable.

    There would be no doubt whose role is what and a clear pecking order would be established from owners to players. It would be known both internally and externally exactly what pieces of the TPTB are responsible for what.

    There would be a new goal established for the team. "NBA Championship for Indianapolis". Does that mean a championship is expected every season? No... but it means every season is to be a piece of the puzzle towards that.

    I have a major problem with a goal of simply reaching the playoffs. That sets the bar too low. In fact, when the East is weak like now, it makes it a pathetic goal. One thing about setting a goal too low is what do you do when you get there? IMO, if you're striving for a championship LOTS of other stuff takes care of itself. For one thing, the fans can see and chart your progress and buy into it emotionally. For the other, if you're building toward a championship then you'll be making the playoffs along the way anyway. The difference is, there's much more to go for. You can't smile and become fat and happy just because you've made your 'goal'. Management better not be satisfied just to make the playoffs nor should the fanbase. There's still work to be done until a that banner hangs from the rafters.

    I also want management to put away the blank checkbooks. If I'm going to pay 'Tim Duncan' type money, I better see Tim Duncan on the floor in a Pacer uniform. "Patience" would be gaged in months, not years. I'd rather cut my losses and let a player explode on me down the road than hang onto a bust and let an underachiever (let alone overpaid underachiever) permeate the lockerroom. A player better be on track by his 2nd year, or else I expect changes either in the player or his zip code. I don't expect vintage Michael Jordan in year 2, but I better not be seeing a deer in the headlights look either. I wouldn't care to pay for a good team... but I see no reason to overpay selfish, me-first players in hopes that the money acts as a salve and they come around. It needs to be established that extensions and over the top contracts won't be handed out automatically any longer. You have to earn your money through performance and professionalism. And with pride in yourself and team...(Some current players need to take a look in a mirror- If they don't have a mirror, then I suggest using one of their recent mugshots!). Also, an injury history is going to be a factor. You can be the next Michael Jordan but it doesn't matter if your injuries continually keep you off the floor. A team needs to be a 'team' and learn to work together. It can't keep being torn apart by a player that can't be counted upon... for whatever reason.

    Coaching- I'm losing faith in JOB although it's still early and he's been given a flawed team. I do not like the offense I've been seeing nor do I like the lack of discipline I'm seeing on the court. Are the players really that dumb or is it bad coaching? I have never been in favor of a run and gun team. Running is one thing... gunning is another. I dislike running and gunning just as much as I dislike ISO Ball featuring a 40% FG PF. Ball movement, screening, player movement... I'm all for. And that is what I would expect. We don't see enough of it now. It just looks helter skelter many times. Not good. We're not breaking down the defense with ball and player movement. In my world, we would be or we'd be seeing changes.

    Part two of coaching: I believe offense sells tickets... but defense is what is going to win the championship. True, you can't throw all of your eggs into the defensive basket but OTOH if the balance has to be tipped one way or the other, in my world it would be tipped toward defense. This is really where I have a problem with O Brien right now. I thought we were told for the players to be allowed to have more control of the offense that they'd have to play defense for him. We are a sieve. We're all about gunning and then letting the other team shoot so we can go gunning again. The players' mindset doesn't seem to be about defense at all. On top of that, we have some weak defenders in the first place. That's even more of a reason NOT to be gunning on offense.

    I'm also a little questionable on his use of the bench. We're sucking, Graham plays a good game and then gets DNP-CD's while we're still sucking? Our 2nd year first round pick is finding minutes hard to come by while we're going nowhere with a team that is going nowhere as it's currently constructed??

    All players are treated equal except for those that are not? (See: JO's playing but not practicing after we were told that would not happen because it's not fair to the other players).

    Fans: I would market this team to the state of Indiana. There's too much focus on Indy only. True, right now it might be to their advantage NOT to showcase some of these players to the state, but that should be an aberration that we're going to turn around. I don't know what flexibility I'd have overall in getting the games on the air but I'd not want to have any road games not on TV... And I'd hope few (if any) home games would be unavailable. And finding the team on the radio anywhere in the state just shouldn't be a problem.

    In an effort to reconnect with fans, I'd offer some fan-friendly packages and even look into lowering ticket prices in many areas. I'd probably look into beefing up promotions as well (that doesn't mean more airplane races). But you can't just do this and expect it to carry the day to fill the seats... the product on the court has to improve. I'm not even sure I wouldn't start my first day with a full page 'open letter' to fans in the Star that explains my understanding of their disgust and apathy and spell out my vision for the team and some of the things they can expect to see as we move forward. I think current ownership (or management) should even consider doing the same and going so far as to offer an apology for losing their way. Afterall, when there's a disconnect with fans, that goes both way. That means TPTB have disconnected as well.

    I'd make sure my marketing campaign was not just words. Even if it costs me up front... In the end, credibility with fans is going to be what pays dividends. No double talk. No "He's not suspended, he's deactivated... and was sent home". I will say this: If I owned the team and saw Tinsley's display at the Suns game and how the coach handled it (or didn't handle it) you can rest assured that my manager's phone would be ringing immediately after the game wanting an explanation of what I just saw. And for his sake, I hope the phone is busy because he's already calling the coach about it.

    That type of display is EXACTLY what is killing fan interest in this team and these players. It would be nice to know (as a fan) that it isn't condoned.

    There should be a synergy between marketing and the product on the court. Marketing can't just be empty words. Team building should be dynamic and it should be pretty obvious what is being condoned and what is being stamped out. There should be some pride to be an Indiana Pacer and an organizational pride should be established with a fans, city, state, ownership, and management collectively. If someone goes astray ALL eyes should be upon them and they should be the exception, not the rule. Teammates should all be saying "You messed up!"... not sharing ideas on how to beat the drug test next time.

    I don't expect the players to be angels BUT they have to accept they are here to be professional basketball players first. The players have to be smart about what they do and the situations they allow themselves to be in off the court. The team also has to be willing to address issues at the root. You cannot convince me that the Pacers were totally blindsided by the Harrison suspension. They might not have known he'd already had 2 positive tests but I doubt they were overly surprised to learn it.

    Ownership needs to be ready to bite the bullet and do what needs to be done. That might mean spending some money now to save money (or keep from spending even more in the future). That might mean letting some longtime employees go. It might mean cutting losses with players even a little sooner than would otherwise be preferred. I really think management's and coaching's reluctance to deal honestly with many of the problems means someone in the upper echelons is going to need to be made to take the fall for allowing things to get this far off-kilter.

    The public KNOWS this team needs changes and is demanding it by turning more apathetic towards them. If management and ownership don't care enough to do what needs to be done, why should the fans buy into lip service and invest money and emotion into the team? They now need action, not words. It's obvious the words are hollow.

    Credibility and Accountability... you can't have one without the other. We have neither now.

    It starts at the top.


    -Bball
    I would like to buy a season ticket to your team.

  16. #16
    Tree People to the Core! indygeezer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Discuss Some Real Cures to What Ails the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I would like to buy a season ticket to your team.
    Absolutely. He may even pry money out of my wallet with an attitude like that.
    If you get to thinkiní youíre a person of some influence, try orderiní somebody elseís dog around..

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    Default Re: Let's Discuss Some Real Cures to What Ails the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    Nice posts, gentlemen, but I'm still hoping I will see multiple answers to my questions and my post is quite hidden now.
    The answer would be Rush if as Wing players both Granger and Dunleavy were finding Rush out on the perimeter. The alternative would be a player who could play over the rim for alley-oops, but I've yet to see a Pacer w/those kinds of ups since Baston left.

  18. #18
    Member OnlyPacersLeft's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Discuss Some Real Cures to What Ails the Pacers

    we really need a guy who can score when we hit those droughts...when duns shot is not falling from 3 and granger can't buy one. We need someone to drive to the hoop and draw contact or get some kind of offense going. Our offense becomes way too stagnant...I can't see how a team can blow so many leads. Cause we simply just can't keep the scoring going...and if it's a shootout more then likely the other team has a guy that's going to finish us off (tonight will probably be billups or *gulp* rasheed)
    "GIMMIE DAT!"-DANGER

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Let's Discuss Some Real Cures to What Ails the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    My questions are:

    What kind of a go-to scorer does Danny Granger compliment?

    What kind of a go-to scorer does Mike Dunleavy compliment?
    I guess I'll take a stab at this one.

    I see Danny being best complemented by a ball-handling #1 scoring option. It could be either a PG (D. Williams, Paul, B. Davis) or a SG (Kobe, Wade, etc.). Danny is a mediocre ball-handler and passer, so those two skills need to be compensated for by his ideal running mate. Danny is also not a true #1 option on offense. He needs someone who will take the defense's attention away from him. The reason I think that Danny's ideal running mate is a guard is that he has never really played great off of JO. Danny needs to feel encouraged to take the ball to the rack, and having a big guy clogging up the lane tends to make him shy away from that.

    With Dun I think you need a strong post player who is a decent passer. JO and Dunleavy have shown some good chemistry when they've been on the court together this season. Dun has a plethora of offensive skills and can fit into a lot of different situations. He could be a very effective pick and roll player. He is also good coming off of screens and firing up shots. He is a good post-entry passer and a smart cutter. Toughness would also be a big help in a running mate for Dunleavy. A player like Garnett would be ideal, but even a guy like Brad Miller or Andrew Bogut could work well with a guy like Mike. I also think that JO fits into this mold, but his offensive game has been average at best so far this year.
    "A man with no belly has no appetite for life."

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  20. #20
    Member OnlyPacersLeft's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Discuss Some Real Cures to What Ails the Pacers

    and oh god Obrien is going to ride out he small ball lineup? we arent the friggin warriors this will not work!
    Uhg
    "GIMMIE DAT!"-DANGER

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