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Thread: It needs to be a priority for the next couple of weeks...

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    Member idioteque's Avatar
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    Default It needs to be a priority for the next couple of weeks...

    To put Stephen Graham in the rotation in a consistent manner.

    If he can contribute, we need to trade either Williams, Granger, Dunleavy, or Daniels. A team with a back court talent level of the Pacers doesn't need to have four relatively good swingmen, we need to trade one of these guys (possibly packaged with Tinsley) for a decent PG.

    At this point I don't think we'll ever be able to package JO and Tinsley together. Three years ago when we should've got rid of them it was possible, but now no one is going to want to take both of those albatross contracts at once. TPTB move with such terrible efficiency, it's kind of sickening sometimes.

    To get rid of both of them we'll have to do two separate trades with a sweetener like Dunleavy or Williams involved if we want to get anything marginal back for JO/Tins. Hell we may have to do that to even move either of these contracts period, discounting completely what we would get in return.

    I know I am rambling, but my point is it is now or never to see if Stephen Graham can contribute for this team on the court. I really don't understand the current line of thinking- he scores 15 points in a game, and gets a string of DNP-CD's as a reward. If he can, it makes one of our four forwards even more expendable than they already are and it might just convince Larry, who makes moves like he's living molasses as it is, to finally deal one of our forwards, hopefully exorcise the brawl, and get some of the back court help we need. Or, if not help, at least get us some expiring contracts.

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    Default Re: It needs to be a priority for the next couple of weeks...

    Graham needs to be in the rotation for the simple fact that Daniels has had maybe 1 good game in the last month. We need some energy and production from the bench.

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    Default Re: It needs to be a priority for the next couple of weeks...

    Didn't you hear? Playing time is earned and not just given to those who normally get it anyways.

    In the next issue we'll read how JO isn't well enough to practice yet but he'll be in the starting lineup next game!

    In the mean time we get to read stories about how Tinsley got in a disagreement with the coach, then suddenly became injured and will miss the next 2 games because of chronic thigh pain and a severe case of "sinuspoutis."


    Hooray for a new coach that changed the whole policy on how to run a team!! I love the way the new Pacers are ran.

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    Default Re: It needs to be a priority for the next couple of weeks...

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Didn't you hear? Playing time is earned and not just given to those who normally get it anyways.

    In the next issue we'll read how JO isn't well enough to practice yet but he'll be in the starting lineup next game!

    In the mean time we get to read stories about how Tinsley got in a disagreement with the coach, then suddenly became injured and will miss the next 2 games because of chronic thigh pain and a severe case of "sinuspoutis."


    Hooray for a new coach that changed the whole policy on how to run a team!! I love the way the new Pacers are ran.
    I'm just glad someone other than me said this stuff.

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    Default Re: It needs to be a priority for the next couple of weeks...

    In all honesty, I like what I saw of Graham for the SINGLE games that we saw of him.

    Unless TPTB does something insanely smart and actually goes out and signs a solid perimeter defender like Quinton Ross in the offseason ,...I can see Graham as a solid 5th SG/SF coming off the bench behind the likes of Granger, Dunleavy, Shawne and Rush ( or whoever we get to replace him ).

    He would likely be cheap ( exactly what we need from a 5th rotational GF ) and could fill in when anybody ahead of him in the SG/SF spot gets injured.

    On top of that....I want to start building chemistry with the players...even if they are at the very end of the bench.
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    Default Re: It needs to be a priority for the next couple of weeks...

    Quote Originally Posted by dcpacersfan View Post
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    If he can, it makes one of our four forwards even more expendable than they already are and it might just convince Larry, who makes moves like he's living molasses as it is, to finally deal one of our forwards, hopefully exorcise the brawl, and get some of the back court help we need. Or, if not help, at least get us some expiring contracts.
    So you're longing for the days of that wheeler and dealer, Donnie Walsh, huh?

    Meet the new boss.... same as the old boss...

    FWIW... Donnie Walsh seems to have been infatuated with SF/SG's for quite some time. It makes me wonder if Larry really thinks the same way or if the power triangle still has Larry several notches down the totem pole in who is really calling the shots.

    But you know what? It doesn't matter now because when management has been this horrid and ownership does nothing about it, it's not management's fault anymore.

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    Default Re: It needs to be a priority for the next couple of weeks...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    So you're longing for the days of that wheeler and dealer, Donnie Walsh, huh?

    Meet the new boss.... same as the old boss...

    FWIW... Donnie Walsh seems to have been infatuated with SF/SG's for quite some time. It makes me wonder if Larry really thinks the same way or if the power triangle still has Larry several notches down the totem pole in who is really calling the shots.

    But you know what? It doesn't matter now because when management has been this horrid and ownership does nothing about it, it's not management's fault anymore.

    -Bball
    I agree that it's now up to the Simons to save this franchise, but I must rise to the defense of Mr. Walsh. Do you really think Bird=Walsh? Maybe that's not really what you're saying here...

    Walsh has made some good moves over the years. Picking Reggie over Steve Alford was monumental. But that's not even close to why Walsh >> Bird.

    Is it not obvious to everyone that Bird does not get along with some of the players? What's his relationship with JO? Anyone remember how he "praised" Reggie at his retirement party? If not, you are fortunate.

    Bird's arrogance combined with his ignorance are something to behold. Whether it's his judgment on Saras and all the other Euro-Losers or this affirmance of a comment allegedly made by RC, Bird should not be running this franchise: "Like Rick Carlisle says, we don't want a bunch of milk-drinkers here," Bird said of McCants. "We'll take the good with the bad. I've known Rashad for a couple of years, I've talked to him, I've been down to watch him practice, and he's a very, very talented player. So we'll see what happens." http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/bird_draft_050622.html

    Well...instead of milk-drinkers, we got us some pot-smokers, gun-toters and gang-bangers over the years. IMO, lack of concern for character and his inability to relate to these type of players is the root cause of the downfall of the franchise. THANKS LARRY!

    BTW, got some more news for you. RC was only part of the the culture problem that AJ talked about at the end of his last season as a Pacer. I hope y'all know it went a notch higher than that. RC was simply the sacrificial lamb.

    Seriously, Walsh may not be great, but Bird is hardly in his league. Walsh is well liked and smart enough to stroke the players properly. Bird doesn't do that and the primadonna punks simply don't like that. A much better comparison is Bird=Isiah. I guess Larry at least has more time to prove his incompetence...
    Last edited by BlueNGold; 01-25-2008 at 07:45 PM.

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    Default Re: It needs to be a priority for the next couple of weeks...

    I don't really know who is running the team.

    I also don't think bruised thighs and sinus infections kept Tinsley out last year.

    We're about as transparent of a team as your average Central Asian government. And that really is on the owners for continuing to let Larry, Donnie, RC, and OB tell half truths to the media and get away with it completely scot-free. I thought that that would be something that ended when Obie came here, but I was naive, because that is a problem not cultivated by either Obie or RC but by upper management, and we could bring the Pope himself to coach this team and we would have the same problems. This tells me that not only is LB a bad GM, President, whatever his title is, but he is also a control freak.

    Larry is a slow thinker, too slow to be an NBA GM. You have to think 3 or 4 years ahead when you make moves. We are so fixated on making the playoffs every year and so against rebuilding that it skews Larry's judgement. When JO's chronic knee problems started a few years ago, I'm willing to bet TPTB hardly took into account that he could sharply decline and that it was better to trade him now when his value was high and he wasn't viewed as an injury prone player, because they knew that JO was capable of getting them into the playoffs THAT YEAR. Forget the fact that in a couple of years he would be considered vastly overplayed, play in about 35 games a year, and be a shell of his former self, because we can still hire a pretty good coach that overachieves with little talent and some cheap swingmen, and eek into the 8th seed in a weak Eastern conference.

    TPTB are fixated with mediocrity, no question about it.

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    Default Re: It needs to be a priority for the next couple of weeks...

    Graham impressed me just as much on defense as he did on offense. He took a couple charges and kept his man in front of him very well. With his size, strength, and athleticism he has the tools to be a good defender.

    I'm with dc. Give him consistent minutes and find out what he's got. Same goes for Shawne and Ike.

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    Default Re: It needs to be a priority for the next couple of weeks...

    Quote Originally Posted by dcpacersfan View Post
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    TPTB are fixated with mediocrity, no question about it.
    Not sure if fixated is the word. I think fixed might be more appropriate.

    Anyway, remember when we lost all our shooters (Peja, Cro, Reggie) within about 1 year and went with the "long, lean athletic team"? You know, Rawle Marshall, James White, etc. Someone forgot that shooting, passing and a high basketball IQ were also required to win basketball games.

    Remember when JO and Al Harrington were supposed to be our front line? I find it difficult, almost impossible, to believe TPTB actually believed that would work because it was patently obvious that is would not. ...and RC was going to get us running? What a joke.

    Now, we have a "running team" or some variation thereof. Instead of acquiring players who can play defense (which is actually where you should start if you want to win), we have Troy Murphy, Mike Dunleavy and Jamaal Tinsley starting....or maybe another defensive specialist like Travis Diener. It's amazing that Kareem Rush looks like the DPOY on this team. Some of the ideas this management team has had in the last several years has me .

    Now that the pantry is clean, TPTB have little left to lose. That's probably the silver lining. Reminds me of a fool and his money...

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    Default Re: It needs to be a priority for the next couple of weeks...

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    I agree that it's now up to the Simons to save this franchise, but I must rise to the defense of Mr. Walsh. Do you really think Bird=Walsh? Maybe that's not really what you're saying here...

    Walsh has made some good moves over the years. Picking Reggie over Steve Alford was monumental. But that's not even close to why Walsh >> Bird.

    Is it not obvious to everyone that Bird does not get along with some of the players? What's his relationship with JO? Anyone remember how he "praised" Reggie at his retirement party? If not, you are fortunate.

    Bird's arrogance combined with his ignorance are something to behold. Whether it's his judgment on Saras and all the other Euro-Losers or this affirmance of a comment allegedly made by RC, Bird should not be running this franchise: "Like Rick Carlisle says, we don't want a bunch of milk-drinkers here," Bird said of McCants. "We'll take the good with the bad. I've known Rashad for a couple of years, I've talked to him, I've been down to watch him practice, and he's a very, very talented player. So we'll see what happens." http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/bird_draft_050622.html

    Well...instead of milk-drinkers, we got us some pot-smokers, gun-toters and gang-bangers over the years. IMO, lack of concern for character and his inability to relate to these type of players is the root cause of the downfall of the franchise. THANKS LARRY!

    BTW, got some more news for you. RC was only part of the the culture problem that AJ talked about at the end of his last season as a Pacer. I hope y'all know it went a notch higher than that. RC was simply the sacrificial lamb.

    Seriously, Walsh may not be great, but Bird is hardly in his league. Walsh is well liked and smart enough to stroke the players properly. Bird doesn't do that and the primadonna punks simply don't like that. A much better comparison is Bird=Isiah. I guess Larry at least has more time to prove his incompetence...
    Totally agree with you.. We need to get Uncle Reggie over here as our GM, I can actually seem him doing some great things as a GM. He's a very smart person, plus that little side note that he was the Pacers savior for so many times.. We should at least offer something like that to him. See what he can do at least.. Can be any worse then Bird. He's probably a pot smoker too. lol, that's why he drafts those guys, to hang out with and have some pot.

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    Default Re: It needs to be a priority for the next couple of weeks...

    I think what is easily forgotten is that you can't just go and make moves with the snap of your fingers.

    Players we don't want, other teams aren't probably going to want at least not for value.

    This team has done about EVERYTHING possible to get results out of Jamaal. Everything. I think that if any team would have interest in Jamaal he would be gone. While Jamaal can do some good things he isn't going to put probably any team over the hump.

    To be honest, as much as I respect Donnie, Larry isn't the one who did most of the things that ****ed this team over. Bringing in *** ****s and giving a lot of money to guys who didn't deserve it has been a lot of Donnie. Worse thing Larry did was sign Saras and that didn't **** this team over for years and years. Donnie is the one who brought those players in.

    I like most of what I have seen from Larry. I don't know if he knows how to build a good team. Time will tell. To be fair, it's very difficult to do with the current roster this team has. Injuries and the actions of some real *** ****s has hurt this franchise and will continue to. Whether we want to admit it or not, the 2004 Brawl has and will continue to haunt this team for a long long time.
    Last edited by Young; 01-25-2008 at 11:06 PM.

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    Default Re: It needs to be a priority for the next couple of weeks...

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Didn't you hear? Playing time is earned and not just given to those who normally get it anyways.

    In the next issue we'll read how JO isn't well enough to practice yet but he'll be in the starting lineup next game!

    In the mean time we get to read stories about how Tinsley got in a disagreement with the coach, then suddenly became injured and will miss the next 2 games because of chronic thigh pain and a severe case of "sinuspoutis."


    Hooray for a new coach that changed the whole policy on how to run a team!! I love the way the new Pacers are ran.
    Playing time lately has been basically the same since we went small ball. There' is nothing to be earned. don't buy into that line cause its BS

    And I been saying Play Graham. Him and Diener on the court at the same time, would benefit us, cause they both can get down the floor fast. And why would you trade Granger? you need to re-think what you wrote. I'd trade Williams way before I'd trade Granger
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    Default Re: It needs to be a priority for the next couple of weeks...

    Quote Originally Posted by rommie View Post
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    I think what is easily forgotten is that you can't just go and make moves with the snap of your fingers.
    We could have traded JO a couple of years ago quite easily if we had any foresight. He was vastly overrated for awhile, if you look at some rumors and trade proposals on ESPN and other sites a few years ago you'd see him included in some deals that are now considered outlandish. We have to start looking a couple years into the future when making moves, but the hick from French Lick hasn't shown the ability to do that at this point.

    JO is virtually untradeable now, but it's still TPTB's fault because they should have seen the warning signs after his knee began to start flaring up consistently.

    [/quote]



    To be honest, as much as I respect Donnie, Larry isn't the one who did most of the things that ****ed this team over. Bringing in *** ****s and giving a lot of money to guys who didn't deserve it has been a lot of Donnie. Worse thing Larry did was sign Saras and that didn't **** this team over for years and years. Donnie is the one who brought those players in.

    I like most of what I have seen from Larry. I don't know if he knows how to build a good team. Time will tell. To be fair, it's very difficult to do with the current roster this team has. Injuries and the actions of some real *** ****s has hurt this franchise and will continue to. Whether we want to admit it or not, the 2004 Brawl has and will continue to haunt this team for a long long time.
    The fact that there is any argument over who is making the decisions for this team just shows how ****ed up this franchise really is right now.

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    Default Re: It needs to be a priority for the next couple of weeks...

    Quote Originally Posted by Oneal07 View Post
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    Playing time lately has been basically the same since we went small ball. There' is nothing to be earned. don't buy into that line cause its BS

    And I been saying Play Graham. Him and Diener on the court at the same time, would benefit us, cause they both can get down the floor fast. And why would you trade Granger? you need to re-think what you wrote. I'd trade Williams way before I'd trade Granger
    I agree with you. Danny Granger is just about the only thing left on the team that can be marketed to the casual customers of the Indiana Pacers.

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    Default Re: It needs to be a priority for the next couple of weeks...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobol Sam View Post
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    I agree with you. Danny Granger is just about the only thing left on the team that can be marketed to the casual customers of the Indiana Pacers.
    I agree, but the problem with both of your guys' reasoning is Williams has basically no value, whereas Granger could land us some guard help.

    Not saying it's a good idea to trade Granger for a guard, just putting that out there.

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    Default Re: It needs to be a priority for the next couple of weeks...

    Quote Originally Posted by bnd45 View Post
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    Graham needs to be in the rotation for the simple fact that Daniels has had maybe 1 good game in the last month. We need some energy and production from the bench.
    Totally agree, but JOB won't do it. Quis is among the veterans not to mention one of the higher price tag players on this team ($6.3M). No way will TPTB accept watching all that money collect dust parked on the bench even if it means the more talented rookie making only $770K is the better player.

    So much for "earning" playing time.
    Last edited by NuffSaid; 01-26-2008 at 09:58 AM.

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    Default Re: It needs to be a priority for the next couple of weeks...

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    On top of that....I want to start building chemistry with the players...even if they are at the very end of the bench.

    Yes, to have role players w/o an inflated sense of entitlement, at the very least. This thread is something I completely agree with. The one player I'd most like to include to move a Tinsley is Marquis because of his injury hx, but sadly I think he has the least value for the same reasons. It's what we've all known they have 4 small forwards in Shawne, Granger, Dunleavy, and Graham. 1 cast off 2 guard and a pariah at the point, along with limited Deiner. You have to move pieces around and this is a way to kill two Birds with one stone. Problem is within the first 30 seconds of trade negotiations they'll want Granger. I don't want to trade the best of the bunch, potential, contract and arguable performance to bring in a another flawed Point Guard. would Andre Miller for Shawne and Tinsley be palatible to Phillie?

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    Default Re: It needs to be a priority for the next couple of weeks...

    Yes Granger could get us a good PG, but Granger could be our "star player" in the next few years. He is an a goodd rebounder, shot blocker, a great shooter, and young, and you dont even consider trading that.
    The eyes of the Granger are upon you.

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    Default Re: It needs to be a priority for the next couple of weeks...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobol Sam View Post
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    I agree with you. Danny Granger is just about the only thing left on the team that can be marketed to the casual customers of the Indiana Pacers.
    Quote Originally Posted by dcpacersfan View Post
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    I agree, but the problem with both of your guys' reasoning is Williams has basically no value, whereas Granger could land us some guard help.

    Not saying it's a good idea to trade Granger for a guard, just putting that out there.

    I think its cutting of your nose to spite your face to move Granger. So I would be against it. I think it most likely sets you back further.

    Unless you think Dunleavy is your man, which you could make an arguement for except defensively at the 3.

    However, if you get back a Point Guard who could actually defend his position, then you could use Rush to guard some small forwards too. I'm really just sick of having to compensate defensively for someone who's supposed to be a legit NBA starter.

    I know they are running this match up strong side trap now, but I still think its okay to ask a player to be able to moderately guard his counterpart reasonably well. It's no knock on Dunleavy, he's just not going to be able to do it night in and night out, imho.

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    Default Re: It needs to be a priority for the next couple of weeks...

    Quote Originally Posted by dcpacersfan View Post
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    We could have traded JO a couple of years ago quite easily if we had any foresight. He was vastly overrated for awhile, if you look at some rumors and trade proposals on ESPN and other sites a few years ago you'd see him included in some deals that are now considered outlandish. We have to start looking a couple years into the future when making moves, but the hick from French Lick hasn't shown the ability to do that at this point.

    JO is virtually untradeable now, but it's still TPTB's fault because they should have seen the warning signs after his knee began to start flaring up consistently.


    The fact that there is any argument over who is making the decisions for this team just shows how ****ed up this franchise really is right now.

    I'll say it about a month too early, but I think they'll make the playoffs and I think it could be the best thing but will turn out to be the worst thing.

    I think they will back into the playoffs because a losing record and will get in. The schedule softens in the second half.

    I think it could be the best because of Austin Croshere, he had that Final against the Lakers and his stock was inflated way beyond his ability. This same thing could happen in a first round series, have Tinsley go off or Dunleavy and he becomes the flavor of the day.

    It would be the worst because TPTB would believe it too and think they have something and not trade them.

    I guess what I'm saying is I don' think Bird would be smart enough to capitalize on the moment, instead he'd stand pat thinking he finally had an answer. Sad.

    Side note: The very best thing that would save the franchise would be to miss the playoffs and hit the lottery, but that goes without saying.
    Last edited by Speed; 01-26-2008 at 10:36 AM.

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    Default Re: It needs to be a priority for the next couple of weeks...

    I'll preface this by saying that I don't think Granger will ever be a star in that I don't ever seeing him being a LeBron James equivalent player, or even a Michael Redd. Numbers wise (but not attitude wise) I see him having a career similar to that of Steve Francis, he'll peak at having a couple of seasons above 20 ppg, but it will ultimately boil down to him, on a good team, being a legit second option rather than a first option. He would only be the first option on an incredibly flawed team.

    When you look at our talent level overall, we're obviously way too good at the SF position. Dunleavy is not a true 2-guard, never was, he is only in the lineup that way because he is better at adjusting to the position than Granger. Dunleavy and Granger basically give you the same thing offensively night in and night out, yet Granger is a better defender. The one thing we do have covered on this team is the "productive wing" role which is filled by Dunleavy/Granger. The problem is we don't have anything else covered, so we're better off moving one of those wings and fulfilling our most gaping hole, which is at PG. Test the waters and see what you can get.

    And move Stephen Graham into the rotation.

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    Default Re: It needs to be a priority for the next couple of weeks...

    What do you think we could get for Marquis?

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    Default Re: It needs to be a priority for the next couple of weeks...

    Let's also remember that when Bird said he wanted RICK of all people to coach a running, athletic type of team fans said "finally" and "can Rick do it". Then when Rick was dumped for JOB it became just "finally".

    There was a ton of fan campaigning for this direction for the team. My defense of Rick was that he was coaching to the roster, not forcing the issue. I stand by that still. They don't have the guys to do what they are trying to do, and frankly at this point they might not have the guys to win with any style consistently.


    As for Graham playing, I am confused by his return to the bench so quickly. He's not an ace, but even Rick would have given him 3-4 games to play his way back out.

    And I guess Rick and Nellie aren't the only two coaches unimpressed with Ike now. My only issue there is from a WTF do you have to lose standpoint.


    Granger is not a star, but I still say he's headed to be a Pippen. He definitely could use one star with him to lean on. You don't build around him, but you don't toss him aside either. Think of how dreadful Marion and Amare were before Nash got there (and Ivaroni too for those with short memories). They added Nash, the ace star to take charge and suddenly everyone got great. Now imagine if they'd punted on Marion and/or Amare and/or Ivaroni before Nash got there.

    The problem is JO. Not JO per se, but that JO is the mega-star by salary. It doesn't help that the borderline All-Star is Murphy by salary. Imagine if you were getting something close to those salaries in on-court production. Danny would be just fine then, as would JOB (and Rick previously).

    I still like JO as a Pacer and there isn't much of anything you can do with his contract to instantly get a true mega-star in his place, but that doesn't mean it doesn't suck just because I'm riding it out as a fan.

  25. #25
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: It needs to be a priority for the next couple of weeks...

    The schedule softens in the second half.
    Softer than Miami, Millwaukee, Chicago, Seattle, etc? This team hasn't exactly proven it can whip up on weak teams. They've got some big wins, but they've got even more bad losses.

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