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Thread: My wife proves my point, sorta.

  1. #1
    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default My wife proves my point, sorta.

    I was watching the home game vs the Warriors. My wife got the kids to fall asleep and joined me in the basement for the second half. A few minutes pass and Al drains a three. She cheered ( supporting former Pacers is accepted in our household). I didn't think anything of it until she started to get pissed that they gave the points to the Warriors. Imagine her confusion, similar colors, Jackson, Al & Crosh.

    This is a person who lives with a die-hard. She'll was still confused. That's one of the major problems I see with fan disinterest. They don't know who the players are anymore. This is something I continually brought up in various threads about attendance, fan interest etc...It's also a reason I'm somewhat inclined to support standing pat with the current roster and build with free agents and draft picks. People seem to be more interested in players they've known for awhile than even a superstar that's relatively new. Thoughts?

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    Member Mr.ThunderMakeR's Avatar
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    Default Re: My wife proves my point, sorta.

    What relatively new superstar do we have?

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    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: My wife proves my point, sorta.

    That was hypothetical. Superstar was an overstatement I guess. I was thinking if you asked the average person in Indiana if they'd rather have Mike Bibby or Fred Jones you'd be surprised by the answer.
    Last edited by Dr. Goldfoot; 01-18-2008 at 02:32 PM.

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    Default Re: My wife proves my point, sorta.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    A few minutes pass and Al drains a three. She cheered ( supporting former Pacers is accepted in our household). I didn't think anything of it until she started to get pissed that they gave the points to the Warriors. Imagine her confusion, similar colors, Jackson, Al & Crosh.

    This is a person who lives with a die-hard. She'll was still confused. That's one of the major problems I see with fan disinterest. They don't know who the players are anymore. This is something I continually brought up in various threads about attendance, fan interest etc...It's also a reason I'm somewhat inclined to support standing pat with the current roster and build with free agents and draft picks. People seem to be more interested in players they've known for awhile than even a superstar that's relatively new. Thoughts?
    I can see your point in "standing pat", but I'm also concerned about holding on to players FOR WAYYYYY TOO LONG in hopes that they can turn things around and/or increase their trade value.

    If the opportunity to move Tinsley and / or JONeal presents itself for players that make sense and don't kill the team from a Salary POV for the next 2 seasons between now and the start of the 2008 Training camp, then I am all for moving them.

    Otherwise, we will likely "stand pat"....only because we have no choice.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: My wife proves my point, sorta.

    Good point, I hear all the time "I don't even know who the players are anymore" Of course I find that impossible to believe.

    Edit: but the only way for players to become known is for the team to win, because unless the team wins, no one will watch.

    Most casual fans, know who JO is, they certainly know who Tinsley is - and no, none of them have any idea that he was having an excellent season. Beyond those two, they really aren't sure who the other guys are. Except, oh yeah, Foster - didn't realize he was still on the team. But our female fans probably would say, who is that cute little point guard - he looks like he should be a kid trying to date our teenage daughter.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 01-18-2008 at 03:52 PM.

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    Default Re: My wife proves my point, sorta.

    I can't agree with you at all. I think it all comes down to winning and losing. Us "hardcore" fans will watch/discuss the team regardless, but the vast majority are only seriously interested in the team when they're relevant (winning). Superstars help bring in W's, help make teams relevant via the additional TV exposure, and are almost always more exciting to watch perform than non-superstars.

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    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: My wife proves my point, sorta.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Good point, I hear all the time "I don't even know who the players are anymore" Of course I find that impossible to believe
    Of course we do but then again most of us know the rosters for the d-leagues. I just consider continuity more than just somewhat important. This team has seen major overhauls to the roster in the last three seasons.

    Players who've borrowed the blue and gold uniform since '04-'05. (either weren't part of the 61 team or are no longer with us since then)

    Britton Johnson
    Tremaine Fowlkes
    John Edwards
    Michael Curry
    Marcus Haislip
    Jonathan Bender
    Ron Artest
    Dale Davis
    Scot Pollard
    Eddie Gill
    James Jones
    Anthony Johnson
    Austin Croshere
    Fred Jones
    Stephen Jackson
    Reggie Miller
    Peja Stojakovic
    Danny Granger
    Sarunus Jasikevicius
    Samaki Walker
    Mike Dunleavy
    Al Harrington
    Troy Murphy
    Darrell Armstrong
    Marquis Daniels
    Ike Diogu
    Shawne Williams
    Maceo Baston
    Rawle Marshall
    Keith McLeod
    Orien Greene
    Josh Powell
    Kareem Rush
    Travis Diener
    Andre Owens
    Stephen Graham
    Courtney Sims

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    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: My wife proves my point, sorta.

    I lived in Chicago during the post-jordan dark years and none of those players were well known either.

    Even the TV sports guys were calling the team "the Terri-Bulls".

    If the Pacers make one or preferably two playoff appearances, the leaders will begin to become known.
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

    “If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

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    Member Mr. Pink's Avatar
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    Default Re: My wife proves my point, sorta.

    I went to the game with my Parents, brother and two friends. My mom and brother were bragging about how they stick with the P's no matter what. We get seated and players are warming up and my mom asks, "Where's Rick at?"

    uh... "Are you freaking serious!?"

    "What? where is he?"

    I don't know the point of telling this but...no one knows anything about the Pacers anymore!
    AKA Sactolover05

  10. #10

    Default Re: My wife proves my point, sorta.

    I agree with Peck.
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

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    Default Re: My wife proves my point, sorta.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Good point, I hear all the time "I don't even know who the players are anymore" Of course I find that impossible to believe.
    especially considering how many have their pictures hanging in indianapolis post offices.
    This is the darkest timeline.

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    ENABEABLER MagicRat's Avatar
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    Default Re: My wife proves my point, sorta.

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    I agree with Peck.
    Smart move.....
    PSN: MRat731 XBL: MRat0731

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: My wife proves my point, sorta.

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post
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    I lived in Chicago during the post-jordan dark years and none of those players were well known either.

    Even the TV sports guys were calling the team "the Terri-Bulls".

    If the Pacers make one or preferably two playoff appearances, the leaders will begin to become known.
    But then that's the chicken and the egg isn't it. When the leaders/star emerge, the team will make a solid playoff effort (ie, not just squeaking into a sub-500 4 and done situation).

    Ultimately you just have to work on the team aspect and let the fans find their way to it.

    You know the Star had a nice stat that picked up my spirits. It showed how many times the team had been farther below .500 at this point or beyond and still made the playoffs. Each time was at least 40 wins even IIRC. So I start thinking "sure, I guess it could happen, it's looked worse."

    But for the purpose of this thread I always have harped that the Reggie teams had low attendence too until the ECF runs. Well 3-4 of those "way below 500" comeback seasons were those early Reggie teams. So when you think about it, even though they had good players and a good overall product, the terrible starts hurt early fan interest and curbed later fan interest with a sense of hesitation on how legit their winning was.

    This team needs to get over 500 and maintain it for a few months. Not big, but at least enough to become normal news. Then a decent showing in the playoffs, at least by key players if not the full team. Then a decent addition or two and a solid above 500 start next season.

    At that point you probably would start to build some interest and identity in the minds of the casual fan. I don't think you have to stand pat to do it, but you do need to keep and market 3-4 key guys. At this point you assume Dun, Danny, JO and perhaps Jeff, but really it's just going to be whoever gets the job done.

  14. #14
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: My wife proves my point, sorta.

    The Pacers had an unusually stable roster from 1994 through 2000 - I think fans got used to the same players being here year, after year, after year, after year, after year.

  15. #15

    Default Re: My wife proves my point, sorta.

    The big issue here is marketing OUTSIDE of Pacerland. Winning will gain the Pacers a portion of those advertising dollars, i.e., nationally televised games (TNT, ESPN, ABC) vice local/cablevision (FSN-IN/MidWest/NBA-LP). That's the biggest problem with the lack of real exposure for this franchise.

    Would it help to get a marque player? Yes! But in a small market area I wouldn't hold my breath on that happening. I mean, it took a player, ala Reggie Miller, to "make" himself a superstar and defy the odds in the biggest sports arena in the US - NYC against the Knicks - before this franchise ever truly got on the map. What will it take to get this team back in the spotlight of the NBA world (besides night club incidents, drug issues and all out slug fests)? IMO, two things:

    1) WINNING ball games particularly against big named teams/players; and,

    2) someone on the roster truly making a name for himself by playing the game the right way. I think Dunleavy, Granger and Deiner all stand the best chance of doing that.

    Bottom line: Get on the winning side of ball games, stay out of the negative spot light, and then you'll get some of that national TV exposure, and before you know it everyone will know the name of somebody on this team....kinda like Cheers, huh?

  16. #16
    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: My wife proves my point, sorta.

    Chicago and Indianapolis are two completely different cities. Chicago manages to support 5 major league teams (Bears, Blackhawks, Bulls, Cubs, White Sox). This city scrapes to support two teams. blah blah blah

    I think a pro team in Indianapolis has to approach things in a different way and a major part of that is familiarity. Right now it seems like we have a bunch of guests over. On the other hand, I'll always stand by winning creates an environment where the games become events. That draws people who wouldn't care otherwise and they create a fictional bond with certain players. So I guess you still need one to have the other.

    Winning creates interest
    Interest creates familiarity
    Familiarity doesn't create winning

    Maybe that explains why my wife didn't realize Austin Croshere hasn't played here in two seasons and Mr. Pink's mom didn't know Carlisle wasn't the coach anymore.

  17. #17
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: My wife proves my point, sorta.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    Of course we do but then again most of us know the rosters for the d-leagues. I just consider continuity more than just somewhat important. This team has seen major overhauls to the roster in the last three seasons.

    Players who've borrowed the blue and gold uniform since '04-'05. (either weren't part of the 61 team or are no longer with us since then)

    Britton Johnson
    Tremaine Fowlkes
    John Edwards
    Michael Curry
    Marcus Haislip
    Jonathan Bender
    Ron Artest
    Dale Davis
    Scot Pollard
    Eddie Gill
    James Jones
    Anthony Johnson
    Austin Croshere
    Fred Jones
    Stephen Jackson
    Reggie Miller
    Peja Stojakovic
    Danny Granger
    Sarunus Jasikevicius
    Samaki Walker
    Mike Dunleavy
    Al Harrington
    Troy Murphy
    Darrell Armstrong
    Marquis Daniels
    Ike Diogu
    Shawne Williams
    Maceo Baston
    Rawle Marshall
    Keith McLeod
    Orien Greene
    Josh Powell
    Kareem Rush
    Travis Diener
    Andre Owens
    Stephen Graham
    Courtney Sims
    Wow, a lot of work there!

    When I looked at the list I thought there's not to many players on that list that would really help the team now that we would want back. James Jones for sure, except we don't have time for all our swingmen now.

    Cro would help more than Harrison. Anthony Johnson would probably be a better backup, but I don't think we would want him back.

    I didn't consider Reggie, he's retired. Peja is always injured.

  18. #18
    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: My wife proves my point, sorta.

    Right. The point was just to show the number of players who've come and gone in the last three seasons ( some of them more important or better than others).

  19. #19
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    Default Re: My wife proves my point, sorta.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Good point, I hear all the time "I don't even know who the players are anymore" Of course I find that impossible to believe.
    Maybe I'm just losing my mind but when I went to list the players I knew on the team I only came up with JO, Jamaal, and Jeff before I had to go to Pacers.com to look at the roster.

    As for the downfall of the Pacers in the eyes of the general public for those of you who get thoroughly offended when people say "The Pacers are nothing but a bunch of thugs" you'll be glad to know that last night at work a woman I work with said "It's not just the Pacers. The whole NBA is nothing but a bunch of thugs." She told me to come up with one player that hadn't had problems. I was going to say Austin Croshere, but then I remembered a story I heard about him so I gave up.

  20. #20

    Default Re: My wife proves my point, sorta.

    Dr. GoldFoot,

    You got a BC powder? Reading that list gave me a headache.

    I hadn't realized so many players have come and gone since then. WOW!

    Granted, some were just on the pre-season roster, but that's one long list for a small market team in just 3-4 yrs!!

    Remarkable!

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    Member LoneGranger33's Avatar
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    Default Re: My wife proves my point, sorta.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    The Pacers had an unusually stable roster from 1994 through 2000 - I think fans got used to the same players being here year, after year, after year, after year, after year.
    Well, they'll get much of the same with the Pacers' own Troy Murphy until 2011!

  22. #22
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: My wife proves my point, sorta.

    Quote Originally Posted by grace View Post
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    Maybe I'm just losing my mind but when I went to list the players I knew on the team I only came up with JO, Jamaal, and Jeff before I had to go to Pacers.com to look at the roster.

    As for the downfall of the Pacers in the eyes of the general public for those of you who get thoroughly offended when people say "The Pacers are nothing but a bunch of thugs" you'll be glad to know that last night at work a woman I work with said "It's not just the Pacers. The whole NBA is nothing but a bunch of thugs." She told me to come up with one player that hadn't had problems. I was going to say Austin Croshere, but then I remembered a story I heard about him so I gave up.

    So the Pacers are giving the whole NBA a bad name....

    -Bball
    O'Brien has been fired! Yay! What took so long?

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

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  23. #23
    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: My wife proves my point, sorta.

    Quote Originally Posted by NuffSaid View Post
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    Dr. GoldFoot,



    Granted, some were just on the pre-season roster, but that's one long list for a small market team in just 3-4 yrs!!

    Remarkable!
    No. Those are just players that actually made the team and played during the regular season. I wasn't gonna included guys that didn't really make the team but....just to add some more confusion(all players associated with the Pacers since Zeke was fired)

    Hiram Fuller
    James Head
    Michael J. Smith
    Omar Cook
    Carl English
    Rashad Wright
    Desmon Farmer
    Randy Holcomb
    Erazem Lorbek
    Damone Brown
    Jimmie "Snap" Hunter
    Alexander Johnson
    James White
    Chris Thomas
    Sean Lampley
    Giorgos Diamantopoulos
    Guillaume Yango
    Jamel Staten
    David Logan
    Kenyon Gamble
    Lukasz Obrzut
    Andrew Betts
    Stanko Barac


    That's 37 real players to come and go and 60 if you count everybody and probably even a few more names could be added there if you wanna count coaches etc....
    Last edited by Dr. Goldfoot; 01-19-2008 at 01:47 AM.

  24. #24
    It Might Be a Soft J JayRedd's Avatar
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    Default Re: My wife proves my point, sorta.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    Member PaceBalls's Avatar
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    Default Re: My wife proves my point, sorta.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    I was watching the home game vs the Warriors. My wife got the kids to fall asleep and joined me in the basement for the second half. A few minutes pass and Al drains a three. She cheered ( supporting former Pacers is accepted in our household). I didn't think anything of it until she started to get pissed that they gave the points to the Warriors. Imagine her confusion, similar colors, Jackson, Al & Crosh.

    This is a person who lives with a die-hard. She'll was still confused. That's one of the major problems I see with fan disinterest. They don't know who the players are anymore. This is something I continually brought up in various threads about attendance, fan interest etc...It's also a reason I'm somewhat inclined to support standing pat with the current roster and build with free agents and draft picks. People seem to be more interested in players they've known for awhile than even a superstar that's relatively new. Thoughts?
    You are right about the average fan, or person in attendance at Conseco. They aren't as knowledgable about basketball or the players. I think, we as die hards here at PD, have a bit of disconnect with the average fan and what our expectations are and what theirs are. We know, or try to know, about every off court issue, all the behinds the scenes attitudes and disputes, the players strengths and weaknesses, and are very interested in the whole operation of the NBA and the Pacers franchise.

    I think the average fan just wants to see the Pacers win games. I've said it before but winning will draw people to the fieldhouse regardless of whether or not the players frequent strip clubs or not.

    So yeah people recognize JO and come to see him play expecting to see quality basketball. I think most of the time they leave dissapointed, and less likely to want to return again. They might recognize Tinsley, but he was never on the national stage like JO.

    I do think bringing in a household name (that would play consistantly good basketball) would help draw the casual fans more, say someone like Gilbert Arenas, but winning games will do even more to bring more fans to the games than any superstar would.

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