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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Today's official story from O'Brien is that Jamaal was

    not suspended, but de-activated.

    When asked why he wasn't at the game it's because Jim told him he didn't have to come.

    At first this was just a minor blip to me about covering up Jamaals abscense, but now it's just getting sad.

    Believe me, I understand that the team would like to avoid any negative headlines about any of our players least of all Jamaal.

    So I understood the injury story.

    However once you've been called on it, the worst thing you can do (btw it is what O'Brien is doing) is continue to lie about it but change your story all at the same time.

    Not to mention insulting a player from another team. Listen to his radio show and listen to what he says about Stephen Jackson. Now I realize that bashing Jackson will probably earn him some points around here but if this is ever proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was "suspended" then he just basically called Stephen Jackson a liar when he was the one lying.

    The best thing he could have done and should have done from here on out is "no comment". Yes, guilt buy default but then you avoid the old ancient proverb of keeping silent and making everyone thing you are a fool vs. opening your mouth and proving it.

    Believe me, my tolerance for O'Brien is at rock bottom right now because I am still hopping mad at that Pheonix game.

    Oh well here is todays article

    http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl.../1088/SPORTS04
    Indiana Pacers coach Jim O'Brien said Thursday his version of Jamaal Tinsley's absence from Wednesday's game "is the story I'm sticking with."


    O'Brien said before and after Wednesday's win over Golden State that Tinsley was inactive because of an injured left knee.
    Several people with knowledge of the situation, however, said Tinsley was "suspended" and "disciplined" after an incident during the team's film session the previous day.
    Thursday, O'Brien said he "deactivated" Tinsley.
    "As an NBA coach I have the ability and the right to deactivate any player I want," O'Brien said after practice Thursday. "I deactivated Jamaal and Ike (Diogu)."
    Diogu was at the game; Tinsley was not.
    Tinsley practiced Thursday and appeared to move well during the team's light workout. Afterward, he declined an interview request through a team spokesman.
    Most players this season, including Tinsley, have attended games and practices when injured.
    "Not if I tell him he doesn't have to show up for the game," O'Brien said, when asked why Tinsley wasn't there. "It's not the first time this year a player was deactivated that wasn't on the bench or here. That's totally up to the head coach. . . . What I told you (Wednesday) is the story I'm sticking with."
    Tinsley has been dealing with several injuries the past few weeks but is expected to play Saturday against Sacramento.
    "I intend to have him activated next game," O'Brien said.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Today's official story from O'Brien is that Jamaal was

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    not suspended, but de-activated.

    When asked why he wasn't at the game it's because Jim told him he didn't have to come.

    At first this was just a minor blip to me about covering up Jamaals abscense, but now it's just getting sad.

    Believe me, I understand that the team would like to avoid any negative headlines about any of our players least of all Jamaal.

    So I understood the injury story.

    However once you've been called on it, the worst thing you can do (btw it is what O'Brien is doing) is continue to lie about it but change your story all at the same time.

    Not to mention insulting a player from another team. Listen to his radio show and listen to what he says about Stephen Jackson. Now I realize that bashing Jackson will probably earn him some points around here but if this is ever proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was "suspended" then he just basically called Stephen Jackson a liar when he was the one lying.

    The best thing he could have done and should have done from here on out is "no comment". Yes, guilt buy default but then you avoid the old ancient proverb of keeping silent and making everyone thing you are a fool vs. opening your mouth and proving it.

    Believe me, my tolerance for O'Brien is at rock bottom right now because I am still hopping mad at that Pheonix game.

    Oh well here is todays article

    http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl.../1088/SPORTS04
    Indiana Pacers coach Jim O'Brien said Thursday his version of Jamaal Tinsley's absence from Wednesday's game "is the story I'm sticking with."


    O'Brien said before and after Wednesday's win over Golden State that Tinsley was inactive because of an injured left knee.
    Several people with knowledge of the situation, however, said Tinsley was "suspended" and "disciplined" after an incident during the team's film session the previous day.
    Thursday, O'Brien said he "deactivated" Tinsley.
    "As an NBA coach I have the ability and the right to deactivate any player I want," O'Brien said after practice Thursday. "I deactivated Jamaal and Ike (Diogu)."
    Diogu was at the game; Tinsley was not.
    Tinsley practiced Thursday and appeared to move well during the team's light workout. Afterward, he declined an interview request through a team spokesman.
    Most players this season, including Tinsley, have attended games and practices when injured.
    "Not if I tell him he doesn't have to show up for the game," O'Brien said, when asked why Tinsley wasn't there. "It's not the first time this year a player was deactivated that wasn't on the bench or here. That's totally up to the head coach. . . . What I told you (Wednesday) is the story I'm sticking with."
    Tinsley has been dealing with several injuries the past few weeks but is expected to play Saturday against Sacramento.
    "I intend to have him activated next game," O'Brien said.

    "That's my story and I'm sticking to it" may be a cute Country music cliche but it is generally accepted to mean "I'm lying but I'll go to my grave with the lie". It really really sounds disengenuous.

    But then, when is the last time a CEO of a major company ever come out and spoke the truth....Our employees are our most important asset..being among the most prevalent. I doubt if "the truth" is ever really told to the public about much of anything. Because "You can't handle the truth" is widely believed.
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    Default Re: Today's official story from O'Brien is that Jamaal was

    What's the big scandal, Peck?

    An NBA coach does have the discretion to tell players where to be during the game. He can tell Foster to stand under the basket, can't he? And he can tell Tinsley to stay the hell home. It doesn't take any official act of suspension to put a player on the bench, nor does it require any official act to say, "Take a day off and rest your knee. While you're doing that, think about your future with this team and in this league."

    I contend that O'Brien has not lied at all. There IS a suspension process, and the Pacers did not employ it with respect to Tinsley. He was not suspended.

    As far as what actually happened during the film session, we still don't know and that is either O'Brien saying "No Comment" (Which you say he should have done.) or else the reporters failing to follow-up on the real story.

    This incident cannot be rightly evaluated until we see what happens next. If Tinsley shapes up, then O'Brien did the right thing. If Tinsley continues to screw around and the Pacers bench him, fine him, suspend him or trade him with the next incident, then O'Brien did the right thing this time. But if things continue to be screwy and inconsistent and management never does take hold of the problem, then you will have been right about this and O'Brien (and TPTB) will deserve your criticism.
    Last edited by Putnam; 01-18-2008 at 08:03 AM.
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    Default Re: Today's official story from O'Brien is that Jamaal was

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    What's the big scandal, Peck?

    An NBA coach does have the discretion to tell players where to be during the game. He can tell Foster to stand under the basket, can't he? And he can tell Tinsley to stay the hell home. It doesn't take any official act of suspension to put a player on the bench, nor does it require any official act to say, "Take a day off and rest your knee. While you're doing that, think about your future with this team and in this league."

    I contend that O'Brien has not lied at all. There IS a suspension process, and the Pacers did not employ it with respect to Tinsley. He was not suspended.

    As far as what actually happened during the film session, we still don't know and that is either O'Brien saying "No Comment" (Which you say he should have done.) or else the reporters failing to follow-up on the real story.

    This incident cannot be rightly evaluated until we see what happens next. If Tinsley shapes up, then O'Brien did the right thing. If Tinsley continues to screw around and the Pacers bench him, fine him, suspend him or trade him with the next incident, then O'Brien did the right thing this time. But if things continue to be screwy and inconsistent and management never does take hold of the problem, then you will have been right about this and O'Brien (and TPTB) will deserve your criticism.

    I agree for the most part with this.

    This could have well been a 1 game suspension "in spirit" while not being
    an official suspension. Depending on what precipitated it, it might just
    have been the most diplomatic way of handling the situation without being
    too heavy handed which may cause lingering ill feelings.

    We won the game that night, so right decisions appear to have been made.

    Case closed as far as I'm concerned.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Today's official story from O'Brien is that Jamaal was

    Yes. Take the coaches word at face value and quit speculating on this. OBie answered the question and I'm sure he had his reasons. Jack loves to stir up trouble in Indiana, and he succeeded without even being on our team!

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Today's official story from O'Brien is that Jamaal was

    [QUOTE=Putnam;644803]What's the big scandal, Peck?

    First of all there is no big scandal, just a very poor lack of judgement and character IMO.

    I was totally with Uncle Buck at the beginning of yesterday when we first started hearing this.

    Not telling everyone was no big deal to me. I completley understood why they would want to keep private and frankly I didn't care.

    However once the story started to be told, the constant denials and then the changing of the story made me start to question the entire thing. Then by the time I listened to the coach's radio show and then read this article I was in the Shade & Hicks camp of "why are you lying to us".

    Suspended, de-activated, told not to come, whatever. As Seth has already appropriatley said were all adults here so come on. This is one of those statement where we have to determine what the word "Is" is.

    And no I'm sorry but I will agree to adamantly disagree with you over his slap at Jackson.

    How about this.

    Putnam say's "O'Brien did not call Jackson a liar, or even imply that he is a liar."

    Peck's retort to this is: "consider the source".

    Does that mean that all I am saying about you is that you are just not a reliable source when it comes to information regarding the team? Or am I saying that what you have to say is not worth paying attention to because you either are a liar or spreader of unintential false truths?

    Personally I'd think it was the latter and not the former.

    His retort to talking about the suspension was to call out a player on another team by name and IMO degrading him.

    But if you want to disagree that is your poragative.

    Now to Will.

    I know you want your news filtered through the cloak of Pacers positive spin, however I hate to break this to you.

    The first internet site to even bring this up was....

    pacers.com

    Now you can say, and I would agree, that he might have known that Wells was going to run with it. But still he didn't have to cover it at all.

    Also, this is not to Will, one other problem here IMO.

    We are now saying de-activated. At first it was he couldn't play because he was injured. Now it is he is de-activated because the coach can.

    Right there is a change of story and frankly would have been an easy out for O'Brien right there.

    All he would have had to say was that he de-activated him and gave him permission to miss the game and that this was an all internal matter & then refuse to comment beyond that.

    But the fact that he had to go so far above and beyond to try and make Well's and Jackson out to be liars is my problem.

    Well that and how he threw away the Pheonix game.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Today's official story from O'Brien is that Jamaal was

    Suspension - not paid for the game

    Inactive - paid

    The fact that he was asked not to attend the game - that speaks volumes to me. That begs the question - why did Jim tell JT not to attend the game. It isn't like it is a road game. Logic would tell us, he probably had some type of disagreement with JT, and thought it was better that he stay away for a day, clear his head.

    Peck, I don't see what all the fuss is about. If he got paid for the game then he was not suspended, although I siuppose a team could and has suspended a player with pay - I think they did that with Artest in '03.

    I don't understand why a number of you are using this against O'Brien. Regardless of anything, he disciplined Tinsley - isn't that what everyone has wanted for years. And now that we have a coach willing to discipline a player, everyone is complaining about the exact laguage used. I really don't understand it. Look at the big picture.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 01-18-2008 at 08:23 AM.

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    Default Re: Today's official story from O'Brien is that Jamaal was

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Suspension - not paid for the game

    Inactive - paid

    The fact that he was asked not to attend the game - that speaks volumes to me. That begs the question - why did Jim tell JT not to attend the game. It isn't like it is a road game. Logic would tell us, he probably had some type of disagreement with JT, and thought it was better that he stay away for a day, clear his head.

    Peck, I don't see what all the fuss is about. If he got paid for the game then he was not suspended, although I siuppose a team could and has suspended a player with pay - I think they did that with Artest in '03.

    I don't understand why a number of you are using this against O'Brien. Regardless of anything, he disciplined Tinsley - isn't that what everyone has wanted for years. And now that we have a coach willing to discipline a player, everyone is complaining about the exact laguage used. I really don't understand it. Look at the big picture.
    completely agree.
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    Default Re: Today's official story from O'Brien is that Jamaal was

    Suspension/vacation/day off whatever, it really isn't pertinent to what the fans are being told. It's the lack of forthright honesty that I'm whining about.
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    Default Re: Today's official story from O'Brien is that Jamaal was

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer View Post
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    Suspension/vacation/day off whatever, it really isn't pertinent to what the fans are being told. It's the lack of forthright honesty that I'm whining about.
    How do you know your not getting forthright honesty? Why come down on one side without proper evidence?

    With me it's a case of, "he said, she said." I don't know who's telling the truth or who's lying, or if it's just a matter of semantics like Bills said.

    Either way, ask yourself who's the bad guys in this whole thing? O'B who had a confrontation with Tins and he wants to keep it quiet. Or those who want to drag it out in the open? (Jackson and Wells)

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    Default Re: Today's official story from O'Brien is that Jamaal was

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    How do you know your not getting forthright honesty? Why come down on one side without proper evidence?

    With me it's a case of, "he said, she said." I don't know who's telling the truth or who's lying, or if it's just a matter of semantics like Bills said.

    Either way, ask yourself who's the bad guys in this whole thing? O'B who had a confrontation with Tins and he wants to keep it quiet. Or those who want to drag it out in the open? (Jackson and Wells)

    How about Tinsley....afterall if he hadn't acted up, this would be a non-issue.
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    Thumbs up Re: Today's official story from O'Brien is that Jamaal was

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Suspension - not paid for the game

    Inactive - paid

    The fact that he was asked not to attend the game - that speaks volumes to me. That begs the question - why did Jim tell JT not to attend the game. It isn't like it is a road game. Logic would tell us, he probably had some type of disagreement with JT, and thought it was better that he stay away for a day, clear his head.

    Peck, I don't see what all the fuss is about. If he got paid for the game then he was not suspended, although I siuppose a team could and has suspended a player with pay - I think they did that with Artest in '03.

    I don't understand why a number of you are using this against O'Brien. Regardless of anything, he disciplined Tinsley - isn't that what everyone has wanted for years. And now that we have a coach willing to discipline a player, everyone is complaining about the exact laguage used. I really don't understand it. Look at the big picture.

    Well said..the team did the right thing

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    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Today's official story from O'Brien is that Jamaal was

    Whats the old saying, "Don't get to high over a win, and don't get to low over a loss."

    I would say that proverb goes double for what you hear from the media nowdays. "Don't get to high over a good story, and don't get to low over a bad story." Especially a bad story, because news outlets always accentuate the negative.

    I agree with what Geezer said about, 'That's my story and I'm sticking to it.' That's just a bad way to state your case.

    This is said to have all come about over an 'incident during a film session.' We don't know exactly what happened, or what was said.

    Even if O'B told Tins he was suspended in front of the whole team, (and we don't know that he did) he has the power to change a suspension to instead putting a player on the inactive list. If that's the case then O'B isn't lying about the result.

    Mostly I blame Mike Well's and his gossip type reporting. He doesn't do his job like newsmen used to do and get the facts before reporting, he just writes hearsay and enough to cause controversy.



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    Default Re: Today's official story from O'Brien is that Jamaal was

    Made Inactive for disciplinary as well as health reasons could easily devolve to Suspended in casual conversation with a bud (sic).

    If JOB did what UB says, it would feel like a suspension and JT would whine about it as a suspension.

    Therefore, in an odd way, both are right - one is using the word casually while the other is sticking to the legal/contract definition.

    After all, if it was a deactivation with a "don't show up" clause, JOB and the Pacers would get in big trouble with the PA for calling it a suspension since they didn't follow the process. JT and SJ and others aren't under the same constraints.

    Note: it doesn't change my feelings. If there was an incident at a film session I still feel Tinsley's an idiot for biting the hand that feeds him. Sorry, he isn't AI.
    Last edited by BillS; 01-18-2008 at 09:11 AM. Reason: Additional info
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    Default Re: Today's official story from O'Brien is that Jamaal was

    Methinks that Peck doth protest too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Not to mention insulting a player from another team. Listen to his radio show and listen to what he says about Stephen Jackson. Now I realize that bashing Jackson will probably earn him some points around here but if this is ever proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was "suspended" then he just basically called Stephen Jackson a liar when he was the one lying.

    OK, I did listen to the show. And I think you are out of line on this.

    What O'Brien says is, "Consider the source." That is entirely appropriate. No opposing player has the right to speak for the Pacers. It is a non-issue that it happened to be Jackson, and O'Brien said nothing particular or specific about it being Jackson.

    O'Brien did not call Jackson a liar, or even imply that he is a liar. All O'Brien said was "Consider the source." All that implies is that Jackson is not a reliable or authoritative source for information about the Pacers.

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    Default Re: Today's official story from O'Brien is that Jamaal was

    Its just more crap that Pacer fans have to deal with that I'm far past my limit of putting up with.

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    Default Re: Today's official story from O'Brien is that Jamaal was

    Who do you think told Jackson? Someone that knows more than anyone on here, that's for sure, and probably Tinsley.

    Obviously they had some issue at the film session and that turned into a pretty standard "suspended with pay" situation. I agree with Peck that JOB tried to downplay it just like Rick used to do, if anything it's for the player's benefit (their rep/image).

    It came out and JOB/TPTB are trying to spin out of an awkward situation.

    And blaming Jackson is just naive (or more likely biased). When he said this how in the world does he know what the official post-game explanation from TPTB is? For all he knows at that point is that this has happened and has been publically addressed in the pre-game presser.

    You guys act like he got up the next day, read the paper and said "I'm not going to let them get away with this, my boy was unfairly suspended." That's not what happened. He answered a question as though the suspension was already a known issue.

    If that's the case then O'B isn't lying about the result.
    Technically, but come on, we're adults here. And regardless there is "asked to stay home" due to injury and due to disagreement. He's still denying the disagreement and if that's true then he is lying/spinning.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 01-18-2008 at 11:44 AM.

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    Default Re: Today's official story from O'Brien is that Jamaal was

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    And blaming Jackson is just naive (or more likely biased). When he said this how in the world does he know what the official post-game explanation from TPTB is? For all he knows at that point is that this has happened and has been publically addressed in the pre-game presser.
    Online sites were already saying Tins was out because of his knee. If I knew it hours before the game, so did Jackson.

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    Default Re: Today's official story from O'Brien is that Jamaal was

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    Online sites were already saying Tins was out because of his knee. If I knew it hours before the game, so did Jackson.
    See I disagree with this because he isn't living the schedule we are. Is Jack surfing the net for NBA news 3 hours before a game? I'm not saying he couldn't be, but at some point aren't you eating, getting ready for the game, etc. It's not like any of these players are just surfing the net right up until game time.

    Sure Agent Zero goes to online poker at halftime, but everyone thinks that's nuts. And I'm not saying he couldn't find out, I'm saying that it's hardly obvious that he did.


    How Jackson presented it was off the cuff and casual. Maybe he was sticking up for Tinsley, but if that's the case then considering the source it makes what he said effectively the truth, barring spins on technicality.

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    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Today's official story from O'Brien is that Jamaal was

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    See I disagree with this because he isn't living the schedule we are. Is Jack surfing the net for NBA news 3 hours before a game? I'm not saying he couldn't be, but at some point aren't you eating, getting ready for the game, etc. It's not like any of these players are just surfing the net right up until game time.

    Sure Agent Zero goes to online poker at halftime, but everyone thinks that's nuts. And I'm not saying he couldn't find out, I'm saying that it's hardly obvious that he did.


    How Jackson presented it was off the cuff and casual. Maybe he was sticking up for Tinsley, but if that's the case then considering the source it makes what he said effectively the truth, barring spins on technicality.
    I didn't make my point clear. If online sites knew Tins was out, then the Warriors knew he was out. Thus Jack as a member of the Warriors would know he was out, and why.

    I still think everyone is making a big deal out of nothing, and I don't hold with lying. (as the Pacers have been accused of doing)

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    Default Re: Today's official story from O'Brien is that Jamaal was

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    I didn't make my point clear. If online sites knew Tins was out, then the Warriors knew he was out. Thus Jack as a member of the Warriors would know he was out, and why.

    I still think everyone is making a big deal out of nothing, and I don't hold with lying. (as the Pacers have been accused of doing)
    But you and I don't disagree that Jackson knew he was out and the REAL reason why. Where we differ is what we think his knowledge of the Pacers PR situation was at that time.

    For all Jackson knew the Pacers had disclosed Tins being suspended with pay for an internal matter that has since been resolved. So as the elephant in the room he'd certainly mention it when talking about not playing against Tins.



    Peck, as I understand it my continued existence here is meant to act as ongoing proof of just how much you keep your banning powers in check. Maybe I need I new avy with a scarlet A on it.

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    Default Re: Today's official story from O'Brien is that Jamaal was

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Who do you think told Jackson? Someone that knows more than anyone on here, that's for sure, and probably Tinsley.

    Obviously they had some issue at the film session and that turned into a pretty standard "suspended with pay" situation. I agree with Peck that JOB tried to downplay it just like Rick used to do, if anything it's for the player's benefit (their rep/image).

    It came out and JOB/TPTB are trying to spin out of an awkward situation.

    And blaming Jackson is just naive (or more likely biased). When he said this how in the world does he know what the official post-game explanation from TPTB is? For all he knows at that point is that this has happened and has been publically addressed in the pre-game presser.

    You guys act like he got up the next day, read the paper and said "I'm not going to let them get away with this, my boy was unfairly suspended." That's not what happened. He answered a question as though the suspension was already a known issue.


    Technically, but come on, we're adults here. And regardless there is "asked to stay home" due to injury and due to disagreement. He's still denying the disagreement and if that's true then he is lying/spinning.

    If I'm folllowing this correctly, the "film" they would have been watching would be either the Phoenix game or the first Golden State game. I can see how these may have caused a problem between the two of them.....At any rate, it will be interesting to see how the next couple of games go!

  23. #23
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Today's official story from O'Brien is that Jamaal was

    "Consider the source." All that implies is that Jackson is not a reliable or authoritative source for information about the Pacers.
    But again were not kids, we all know that is a common phrase with a definite implication behind it. It's not as simple as "they don't know our info", it carries the weight of the person being undependable due to character issues.

    You use it to attack the person bringing the information to light as a means of defense for yourself.

    "Jose Conseco said you did steriods with him McGwire."
    "Yeah, but consider the source."

    That doesn't mean "how would he know", that means "he's the type to make crap up for reasons of attention/stirring trouble".

    And JOB didn't even coach Jackson, so consider HIS source on Jackson as a person.

    They are throwing Jack under the bus because they know you guys will bite on it due to the outrageous dislike of him. But the story that came out cited MULTIPLE sources, not just Jackson, and again Jack didn't present it in a stirring the pot forum. Tinsley wasn't there, he mentioned it and the reason he thought everyone knew at that point. Why wouldn't they know if it was presented to him as common knowledge? You assume he spoke with someone that knew, maybe Tins, and that discussion probably was more like "he told him/me to sit out a game", "he/I got suspended for tonight, it was BS", etc without some follow-up of "but the official story is that he's/I'm just injured so keep it cool tonight if anyone asks".

    It's just common sense.

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    Default Re: Today's official story from O'Brien is that Jamaal was

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    It's just common sense.

    It's also common sense that Jackson would pile on the Pacers if he got the chance.

    And I'm not piling on. I think the Pacers made mistakes in trading Jackson and Artest the way they did. I like both guys.

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    It Might Be a Soft J JayRedd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Today's official story from O'Brien is that Jamaal was

    I think someone should write a dissertation comparing and contrasting the definitions of suspension versus deactivation, and how these distinctions are interpretted by the common fan in Indiana. It really is a fascinating subject.
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