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Thread: For those of you who laughed at me

  1. #1
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default For those of you who laughed at me

    and will still laugh at me for when I said that Jermaine O'Neal was not significantly better than Drew Gooden.

    Ahem....


    2007-08 Statistics
    Drew Gooden
    PPG 12.1
    RPG 8.9
    APG 1.0
    SPG 0.8
    BPG 0.6
    FG% 0.436
    FT% 0.724
    3P% 0.000
    MPG 32.2

    Jermaine O'Neal
    PPG 15.8
    RPG 7.4
    APG 2.6
    SPG 0.6
    BPG 2.3
    FG% 0.444
    FT% 0.754
    3P% 0.000
    MPG 32.0

    Now remember I have never once said that Drew was better or even as good as. I have always just said that I don't beleive that J.O. is heads and shoulders better.

    As to those who will throw out the taking charges and blocking shots I will give it up to J.O. for that.

    However I will add that Drew defends the better interior player almost every night as they try to protect Big Z from fouls.

    So again J.O. is better, just not worlds better.

    Oh not that I ever use salary to compare a players value but....

    Drew Gooden 6,400,000

    Jermaine O'Neal 19,710,000

    Triple. Is J.O. triple better?

    Anyway, I'm just feeling cantankerous tonight so I thought I would stir the pot.

    Flame away.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  2. #2
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: For those of you who laughed at me

    What were those numbers just last year?

    You're pumping up Gooden by comparing him to JO after JO has blatantly declined.

    As I think I told you long ago, there's a much stronger argument to be made with Carlos Boozer.

  3. #3
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
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    Default Re: For those of you who laughed at me

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    As I think I told you long ago, there's a much stronger argument to be made with Carlos Boozer.
    There's no argument there. Boozer is definitely a better player than JO right now.

    Boozer averages 23/10, but most importantly shoots 54.8% (as a great PF should)

    JO averages 15/7 and shoots a bad 44%.

    JO, however, is a superior shotblocker to Boozer, averaging 2 to Boozer's .5

    JO in his best season (02-03) was 21/10, and still just shot 48%. Boozer now is better, atleast statistically (since stats are the basis of this thread), than JO ever was.

    That has always been my biggest problem with JO. He shoots a bad percentage, yet thinks he should be the go to guy i.e. Shaq, Duncan or KG. Except the difference is those guys shoot high percentages which are essential to being a great go to big man.

    JO wants to be a go to big man, yet shoots a worse percentage than Iverson who is a 2 guard. Something isn't right with that picture.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 01-16-2008 at 01:31 AM.

  4. #4
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: For those of you who laughed at me

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    What were those numbers just last year?

    You're pumping up Gooden by comparing him to JO after JO has blatantly declined.

    As I think I told you long ago, there's a much stronger argument to be made with Carlos Boozer.
    Drew Gooden
    06-07 CLE 80 80 28.0 0.473 0.167 0.714 3.3 5.2 8.5 1.1 0.9 0.3 1.44 2.60 11.1

    Jermaine O'Neal
    06-07 IND 69 69 35.6 0.436 0.000 0.767 2.2 7.4 9.6 2.4 0.7 2.6 2.94 3.40 19.4

    Triple.

    Remember you have to play by my rules here (my thread afterall)

    So my rules for this are this, I am not saying that J.O. is not the better player.

    I am saying he is NOT significantly better.

    7 more min. a game last season for J.O., a system that was designed to get him shot after shot after shot.

    As to Boozer? It's not even close.

    I won't even go into my Shareef Abdur-Rahim speech.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  5. #5

    Default Re: For those of you who laughed at me

    If JO focused on overpowering defenders with his evident strength (his arms are huge), his shooting percentage would be quite better since he wouldn't be settling for jumpers like he does now. If he gets in the mind frame that he's dominant, he'll get most of his points under the basket through dunks, tip-ins, and offensive rebounds.

  6. #6
    Member CableKC's Avatar
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    Default Re: For those of you who laughed at me

    I'm guessing that this must have been some Forum Party topic....
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    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
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    Default Re: For those of you who laughed at me

    To help Peck's point a little...

    What must be remembered is that Gooden plays with LBJ, who is a top 2 scorer in the league. It's not as if Gooden is getting a great amount of chances to score.

    JO has played in an offense that especially through last year was designed for him to constantly get touches.

    That must be taken into account as well when evaluating these 2 players.

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    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
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    Default Re: For those of you who laughed at me

    What must also be remembered is that Gooden plays with Lebron James. He faces no double-teams and has the NBA's best player to get him the ball in places where he can score, which LeBron often does.

    I think Lebron would only help Gooden's scoring.

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    Raw Talent Robertmto's Avatar
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    Default Re: For those of you who laughed at me

    aw hell I think Gooden IS better.

    Unless of course we're talking game changing 3 point attempts here
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  10. #10
    J.O. To The T.O. Oneal07's Avatar
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    Default Re: For those of you who laughed at me

    You want to say he's better cause of stats?

    I'd take Jemaine way before I take Drew Gooden. Just remember, Drew Has LeBron on his team. If Jermaine had a LeBron, you'd see way better numbers, compared to Gooden.

    O'neal >>>> Gooden

    You honestly think Gooden is better than a healthy J.O? What a Joke
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  11. #11
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: For those of you who laughed at me

    Peck, you lost me with all those numbers. LOL

    I do want to make a serious point though. JO is better, no doubt in my mind about that, just how good would Gooden be without LeBron getting him wide open shot after wide open shot.

  12. #12

    Default Re: For those of you who laughed at me

    Troy makes more than Drew but you just have to look past that.
    "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

    "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

  13. #13

    Default Re: For those of you who laughed at me

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I won't even go into my Shareef Abdur-Rahim speech.
    I was right there with you until that last line.

    Abdur-Rahim is pretty much an every night DNP-CD on a bad team, and for apparently good reasons. Slow, broken down, no D, no toughness, and eroding offense.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: For those of you who laughed at me

    isn't it conceivable that JO's stats would improve significantly playing alongside Lebron?
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    Default Re: For those of you who laughed at me

    Right now it's concievable that they're similar talents. But think of it as a graph with Jermaine's rapidly declining line intersecting with Gooden's slightly rising line. JO has been significantly better than Gooden for most of his career. JO has had FOUR YEARS of averaging at least 20/10, and a couple more years of 19/10. Drew Gooden's best year is 14/9 and he has averaged 13 ppg only one other year.

    So if you're talking about now, it's concievable, but statistically, if you're talking about overall, I think you're gravely mistaken.

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    Member andreialta's Avatar
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    Default Re: For those of you who laughed at me

    I think JO gets much more BLOCKS than Gooden will!

    Bad knee or good Knee
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  17. #17

    Default Re: For those of you who laughed at me

    Blocking shots is so important that the last NBA champion to have the league leader in blocked shots that season was...

    Hakeem in 1993?

    It's overrated, and is often a result of compensating for bad defensive positioning.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: For those of you who laughed at me

    Quote Originally Posted by pacertom View Post
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    Blocking shots is so important that the last NBA champion to have the league leader in blocked shots that season was...

    Hakeem in 1993?

    It's overrated, and is often a result of compensating for bad defensive positioning.
    so the only person that is good at blocking shots per year is the one guy that wins?

    what if we were to expand it a little and look at the top 10 per year for the last 10 years?


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  19. #19
    It is ka Thankee sai Major Cold's Avatar
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    Default Re: For those of you who laughed at me

    Having a shot blocker is more than you guys think.

  20. #20
    It Might Be a Soft J JayRedd's Avatar
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    Default Re: For those of you who laughed at me

    Look...we all know JO is struggling offensively right now. That's not disputable.

    It still doesn't mean that it was an utterly ridiculous comment to say the Drew Gooden was even near JO's level when you stated it like a year ago (or more) when JO was playing like an animal (he was clearly a Top 3 DPOY candidate while averaging a 20/10 last February).

    If you want to say you predicted a future when a half-injured JO would be similar statistically to your man-crush Drew Gooden, then fine.

    But you were 100% wrong at the time you first said it. (And, for the record, I think you're still pretty wrong now. And I like Gooden quite a bit.)
    Last edited by JayRedd; 01-16-2008 at 01:12 PM.
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  21. #21
    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: For those of you who laughed at me

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    Look...we all know JO is struggling offensively right now. That's not disputable.

    It still doesn't mean that it was an utterly ridiculous comment to say the Drew Gooden was even near JO's level when you stated it like a year ago (or more) and JO playing like an animal (he clearly a Top 3 DPOY candidate while averaging a 20/10 last February).

    If you want to say you predicted a future when a half-injured JO would be similar statistically to your man-crush Drew Gooden, then fine.

    But you were 100% wrong at the time you first said it. (And, for the record, I think you're still pretty wrong now. And I like Gooden quite a bit.)
    Sorry Peck, but Jay is 100% right here IMO.

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  22. #22
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: For those of you who laughed at me

    Uh Uh Uh...

    You people are NOT following the rule here. Not once did I say that Drew Gooden was better than J.O.

    Not once did I say that Drew Gooden is even as good as J.O.

    My rules are specific on this, I am saying that Jermaine O'Neal is not 3 times better than Drew Gooden.

    The fact that JayRedd (who I respect as a poster btw) just said that J.O. was tearing up the leauge and should be considered an MVP candidate for averaging 20 & 10 is exactly what I'm talking about.

    While 20 & 10 is nothing to sneeze at, to be frank it's not truely otherworldy good either.

    Hence my Abdur-Rahim speech. Sorry Tom I should have been more specific. I'm saying early in his career Shareef got the same stats mostly as what J.O. did at the top of his game, yet no one went around throwing out the word MVP.

    J.O. is now and has always been a better shot blocker than Rahim, however I will contend that Shariff was a better post defender later in his career.

    So..... So far we only have emotional responses proclaiming how wrong I am about Drew Gooden not being better than J.O.

    Now that I have covered this again, please go back and now proclaim with some logic how he is 3 times better than J.O.

    BTW, yes I realize we are using salary here which I hate. But it is the only tangible number I can come up with at the moment.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Member andreialta's Avatar
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    Default Re: For those of you who laughed at me

    Shot blocking isnt overrated. it doesn't matter if the last team that won the championship that had the shot block leader was back in 1993 does not say that the teams that have won does not have legitimate shot blockers?

    if you dont have shot blockers, players on the opposition will think that they can really man handle you, they can drive the ball at will and not worry about someone altering their shots.

    can't believe you'd say such a thing, about it being not important.
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  24. #24

    Default Re: For those of you who laughed at me

    Quote Originally Posted by avoidingtheclowns View Post
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    so the only person that is good at blocking shots per year is the one guy that wins?
    No, I'm saying that good frontcourt defensive players are often good shot blockers, and it is important to have good defensive players in the frontcourt,

    but the converse is not true, good shotblockers are sometimes not particularly good frontcourt defensive players.

    Was Shawn Bradley a good defensive player?

    Jermaine isn't in the Shawn Bradley category, but I will use the extreme example to make the point.

  25. #25
    Member andreialta's Avatar
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    Default Re: For those of you who laughed at me

    ok. 3x better. i get it then

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