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Thread: Sonics are gonna be in all kinds of trouble with NBA Owners...

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    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Sonics are gonna be in all kinds of trouble with NBA Owners...

    They've just declared in court documents that having a pro team does nothing to help the city's economy. Pretty much all NBA teams claim the opposite when trying to get taxpayers to finance a new stadium.

    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...sonics18m.html

    "The financial issue is simple, and the city's analysts agree, there will be no net economic loss if the Sonics leave Seattle. Entertainment dollars not spent on the Sonics will be spent on Seattle's many other sports and entertainment options. Seattleites will not reduce their entertainment budget simply because the Sonics leave," the Sonics said in the court brief.
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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sonics are gonna be in all kinds of trouble with NBA Owners...

    They did make it specific to Seattle... So another team could argue the Seattle situation is different due to all of the wonderful things Seattle has to offer. The Sonics could even spin it and say that the multitude of Seattle entertainment options are part of the problem for them.

    Not that I know what that might be...

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    Default Re: Sonics are gonna be in all kinds of trouble with NBA Owners...

    Bball: Yeah, but I don't think that argument would ever fly for any city with similar entertainment options as Seattle or even more than Seattle.

    And you could argue that even in Indianapolis people would spend that money someplace else in entertainment. For me, I might have used my season tickets money this season towards my first HDTV, as an example. I almost certainly would have, as a matter of fact.

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sonics are gonna be in all kinds of trouble with NBA Owners...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    Bball: Yeah, but I don't think that argument would ever fly for any city with similar entertainment options as Seattle or even more than Seattle.

    And you could argue that even in Indianapolis people would spend that money someplace else in entertainment. For me, I might have used my season tickets money this season towards my first HDTV, as an example. I almost certainly would have, as a matter of fact.
    I never said I believed what I was saying would fly. I actually agree with Anthem that other owners aren't going to like this at all. I was just looking for their damage control/spin option(s).

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    woman without a team
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    Default Re: Sonics are gonna be in all kinds of trouble with NBA Owners...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    And you could argue that even in Indianapolis people would spend that money someplace else in entertainment.
    I think the attendance numbers from this season prove that's already the case.

  6. #6
    sweabs
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    Default Re: Sonics are gonna be in all kinds of trouble with NBA Owners...

    Well, they're right.

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    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sonics are gonna be in all kinds of trouble with NBA Owners...

    Stadium = Jobs.

    How hard is that to understand?
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    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sonics are gonna be in all kinds of trouble with NBA Owners...

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post
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    Stadium = Jobs.

    How hard is that to understand?
    There are a lot of things that can create jobs. How much did Seattle taxpayers pony up for the stadium? Is it worth that much money just to create some low-end vendor jobs?

    Heck, how many people can you hire to sit home at $7 per hour?
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    Default Re: Sonics are gonna be in all kinds of trouble with NBA Owners...

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    There are a lot of things that can create jobs. How much did Seattle taxpayers pony up for the stadium? Is it worth that much money just to create some low-end vendor jobs?

    Heck, how many people can you hire to sit home at $7 per hour?
    It's not just the vendor jobs though.

    Lets just look at the jobs the team creates. You have to have people in sales, finance, administration, basketball operations, etc. These are going to be pretty good jobs to have.

    Then it takes a lot of people besides the vendors to run a stadium. There are going to be more than just basketball games going on there too obviously.

    I don't think having a new stadium for a team automatically means your economy is in great shape. However it, along with a professional sports team, creates more than vendor jobs.

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    Default Re: Sonics are gonna be in all kinds of trouble with NBA Owners...

    Professional sports teams are part of the package that brings business to a city...probably NFL to a greater extent. However, it's still a small factor compared to having the right base of workers and supporting industry, proper wage levels, tax abatements, infrastructure, location, etc. In fact, proper wage and overall compensation levels are so important, our companies will go to the other side of the earth for it. Hmmm. I guess the NBA was going to add a team in China.

    As for the jobs that will actually be created, if you want to wait tables, pick up trash and service hotel patrons...you are in business.

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    Default Re: Sonics are gonna be in all kinds of trouble with NBA Owners...

    Quote Originally Posted by rommie View Post
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    It's not just the vendor jobs though.

    Lets just look at the jobs the team creates. You have to have people in sales, finance, administration, basketball operations, etc. These are going to be pretty good jobs to have.
    And let's not forget you can have a multitude of GM's, assistant GM's, President in Charge of Basketball Operations, VP in Charge of Basketball Operations, Apprentice VP in Charge of Basketball Operations, Assistant President in Charge of Basketball Operations, Assistant Apprentice VP in Charge of Basketball Operations, Assistant Apprentice VP Understudy in Charge of Basketball Operations....

    And how many other titles you can create...

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    Default Re: Sonics are gonna be in all kinds of trouble with NBA Owners...

    There are some well paid positions that come along with the stadium, but the vast majority of actual money is flowing from the general tax base of the city AND from people who can afford tickets, to a handful of very wealthy people including the players.

    The only problem I have with that equation is that the general public is involved in it at all. Most of them don't have the money to go to games, yet want to make more than minimum wage vacuuming rooms at the Marriot.

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    Default Re: Sonics are gonna be in all kinds of trouble with NBA Owners...

    I was really referring to construction. In my community, despite all the nay-sayers saying that it would be a waste of money, Staples Center has become the epicenter for an entire new neighborhood. There's a explosion of economic growth in downtown LA, and staples was the spark that started the inferno.
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    Default Re: Sonics are gonna be in all kinds of trouble with NBA Owners...

    There may be a couple restaurants that close down because they don't have those 41 home games drawing people in. That happened in Portland when the Blazers went down hill and people stopped going. There will also be the lack of gear sales locally, but they will buy other stuff, so no net loss there.

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    Default Re: Sonics are gonna be in all kinds of trouble with NBA Owners...

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post
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    I was really referring to construction. In my community, despite all the nay-sayers saying that it would be a waste of money, Staples Center has become the epicenter for an entire new neighborhood. There's a explosion of economic growth in downtown LA, and staples was the spark that started the inferno.
    here they said the AT&T Center would revitalize the area it was built in and nothing happened so far, so it would seem to matter where said stadium was built. I'm not sure why anyone thought it would happen here though. They built it in an industrial area.

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    Default Re: Sonics are gonna be in all kinds of trouble with NBA Owners...

    I could see the argument for all those jobs if it was a team moving to a city with no existing stadium, but if they are just replacing an aging structure that is already in place, aren't the jobs already there? The only jobs I see are the construction ones that are temporary.

    How does the big tax expenditure help stimulate the economy then? Other than more seats/suites to sell, I don't see it.

    Throw in that they will probably raise ticket prices because of the "new and better environment" to watch basketball and other events, and the economy might actually suffer....

    I've never gotten the argument for using that much tax money to help a private enterprise make money. Just give them the money and make them play in the old arena! As a taxpayer, I don't like subsidizing a professional sports team and then being asked to be a fan and pay waaaay too much for tickets so that they can pay the athletes too much money.

    Don't get me wrong, I love professional sports, and I will continue to attend. The big difference for me is that I rarely attend when I actually have to PURCHASE tickets. I am a guest of a corporate sponsor/benevolent benefactor at least 90% of the time.



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  17. #17
    sweabs
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    Default Re: Sonics are gonna be in all kinds of trouble with NBA Owners...

    The Sonics current arena, KeyArena, is 12 years old? The average age of a professional sports venue being replaced is 31 years old. It seems to me that 12 years old isn't all that long.

    The "Kingdome" - where the Sonics played before KeyArena...yeah. Those debts are STILL being paid off until the year 2016. That's the stadium BEFORE KeyArena. Add to the fact that over $50 million in debt is still owed on KeyArena itself.

    Safeco Field - built in 1999 for the Seattle Mariners. Cost $534 million, and the public had to contribute 69% of the funds for that project. This...all despite the fact that in Sept.1995, Seattle taxpayers voted against publicly funding a new stadium for the Mariners. They'll be paying that one off until the year 2020 or later.

    Then 2 years later, the Seahawks get a new stadium. $400 million in cost. Public responsible for 75% of those funds (despite the many critics who objected).

    Mayor Greg Nickels: "If they stay in Seattle, great. If they don’t, we’ll have to make do with the Mariners, the Seahawks, Intiman Theatre, Seattle Opera, the Rep [Seattle Repertory Theatre]…I think we’ll make do."

    The Sonics have lost $60 million since 2001 - a big part of the problem is their inability to sell luxury suites - they actually had to remove 1,112 club seats in favour of transforming them into lower-priced, more traditional seating. The only time they've been able to sell all of their club seats was in KeyArena's inaugural year (I believe the Sonics went to the finals that year as well). They just barely did it then - but have been nowhere close since that time.

    The employment opportunities that come along with the construction of a new venue are largely part-time, low-skill jobs. If job creation is what's important for the taxpayers (who are the ones paying for this), then why not put that money towards unemployment issue plans? Sport is just a small piece of the puzzle when it comes to a community's economy - it can't be the engine that sparks new jobs and growth.

    Mark Rosentraub has done some extensive research and shown that players garner about 55% of the gains from public subsidies, while owners receive the other 45%. Ticket prices also tend to escalate with the onslaught of a new arena. So where again, is the taxpayers' ROI? Isn't it ironic that these people, who will be paying for the new arena, are going to likely be left unable to afford the price of admission?

    And what Bball and Mal were kind of alluding to what economists often refer to as the "substitution effect" - where people will spend their discretionary income on leisure activities regardless of whether or not the professional sports team is there.

    I've done a fair bit of research on the effects of public funding on professional sports venues - particularly this Seattle situation and honestly, I'm 100% with the taxpayers of Seattle on this one. It just doesn't make sense for them.
    Last edited by sweabs; 01-19-2008 at 01:19 AM.

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    Default Re: Sonics are gonna be in all kinds of trouble with NBA Owners...

    IMHO: Its true that entertainment dollars would be spent on other things but those dollars may be spent on a vacation out of town. Restaurants receive benefits, you also have the possibility of luring 1st or 2nd rnd NCAA tournament games. This would bring fans from out of town who need downtown hotels. I'm sure a new arena would bring benefits unknown.
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    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sonics are gonna be in all kinds of trouble with NBA Owners...

    Quote Originally Posted by SycamoreKen View Post
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    here they said the AT&T Center would revitalize the area it was built in and nothing happened so far, so it would seem to matter where said stadium was built. I'm not sure why anyone thought it would happen here though. They built it in an industrial area.
    Not shocking.

    I suspect Lucas Oil Stadium (or whatever the behemoth is called in downtown Indy) will have very little impact as well. It sits on the edge of downtown and I seriously doubt that much business will pop up next to it. Certainly, it's not going to extend downtown to the south because everything else is on the north side of it.

    The bigger impact to Indy will be due to the eventual much larger convention center...something that brings people downtown to businesses and hotels on a daily basis throughout the entire year. That's the kind of project that should get public funding.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Sonics are gonna be in all kinds of trouble with NBA Owners...

    Everyone seem to be forgetting that a pro team is instant marketing for your city/state. People go around wearing the merchandise not only where the team is located, but outside too. Generating a "buzz" in this regard is key to a marketing plan that COULD lead to future economic development. A key restaurant may come to Indy or seek them out because they are targeting city's with major league franchises.

    While the numbers may never add up for bringing in a sports team, it's a big draw and I believe Seattle may not miss the Sonics now, maybe not in 5 years, but big picture.......20 years from now...what impact did that decision have on them?

    Tough statement for them to make, but there would be no proof to refute the statement, nor to back it up, other than using historical data to guess future event.s

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    Default Re: Sonics are gonna be in all kinds of trouble with NBA Owners...

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Not shocking.

    I suspect Lucas Oil Stadium (or whatever the behemoth is called in downtown Indy) will have very little impact as well. It sits on the edge of downtown and I seriously doubt that much business will pop up next to it. Certainly, it's not going to extend downtown to the south because everything else is on the north side of it.

    The bigger impact to Indy will be due to the eventual much larger convention center...something that brings people downtown to businesses and hotels on a daily basis throughout the entire year. That's the kind of project that should get public funding.
    Actually, there are a few huge developments planned around Lucas Oil Stadium.
    http://theurbanophile.blogspot.com/2...-unveiled.html
    http://www.indyrealestatetalk.com/a-...-indianapolis/

    It seems stadiums are hit and miss. In San Diego, the Padres' stadium is now surrounded by new hotels and condos. However, I think that football stadiums are the hardest stadiums to develop by. The great thing about baseball and even basketball is you have a great number of home games. Although football home games are almost rituals where you eventually spend the entire day at the stadium/area surrounding it (tailgate in the morning, maybe eat somewhere, go to the game, go somewhere to eat/drink after words), you only have a limited number a year. The good thing about LOS is that there will be other events that it can be used for and Indianapolis' set-up with the convention center is absolutely outstanding.

    I was originally very-pro stadium, and I still am. I think that the food and beverage tax was a fair way to pay for the stadium, but I increasingly believe that the Colts' should have paid more for the stadium. This is especially true considering how much money they bring in from sponsorship deals.

    The best argument for privately financed stadiums is SBC Park in San Francisco. It is one of the best sports venues in the country.

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sonics are gonna be in all kinds of trouble with NBA Owners...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    Bball: Yeah, but I don't think that argument would ever fly for any city with similar entertainment options as Seattle or even more than Seattle.

    And you could argue that even in Indianapolis people would spend that money someplace else in entertainment. For me, I might have used my season tickets money this season towards my first HDTV, as an example. I almost certainly would have, as a matter of fact.
    But technically that's crossing boundaries, you are shifting entertainment dollars into consumer goods/electronics, which has it's own budget. Just like saying "I would have bought more food".

    It's not the same as saying if they left I would go to the movies, theater, other sporting events, etc more often. That might be true too, but I doubt it would be to the same extent. Especially in Indy. Colts games are already sold out, so that's off the table. F1 is gone. How many locals have seen more than 2 shows at the Murat this year or gone to more than 2 games at Victory? How many have been saying "if only it wasn't for those darn Pacers I could see Mamma Mia one more time"?

    Heck, I'd suggest that some of that money would actually go up the road to Chicago entertainment even.


    Frankly Seattle does have an immensely greater number of entertainment options, there are lots of other things to do. And even still I think they might have a tough time proving this case. It's also hard to prove it the other way, but an economic study of the area around the arena, local merchandisers, commercial tie-ins and so on go with it.

    I happen to have a slight family connection to someone that brings in athletes for promotions with a major company. They've been very happy with their interactions with Durant (not so much with Oden up to this point, though that's probably on handlers rather than him).

    Celebrity spokesmen can come from other fields, or just other teams (S'hawks, Mariners), but that doesn't mean that Durant isn't the best at drawing attention and creating sales. Maybe he relates better to the local youth market and thus improves product sales in that demo. Move the team and you lose some of that connection.

    The list is just about endless, a team becomes extremely intertwined with a city. And I'll bet you that the Sonics are making the EXACT OPPOSITE case in OK City right now.

    Wouldn't it be hilarious if someone from that end pulled out an email or some document with stuff like "huge benefit to the city" promised by the Sonics? I'll tell you what, the ownership might want to strongly consider where they are placing their own future economic needs with this case. Gonna be pretty tough to get public assistance in OKC at this point.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 01-19-2008 at 11:37 AM.

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    Default Re: Sonics are gonna be in all kinds of trouble with NBA Owners...

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post
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    I was really referring to construction. In my community, despite all the nay-sayers saying that it would be a waste of money, Staples Center has become the epicenter for an entire new neighborhood. There's a explosion of economic growth in downtown LA, and staples was the spark that started the inferno.
    And sometimes people forget that the RCA Dome came BEFORE the downtown mall, the canal, Victory Field, Conseco, repaving/bricking on the circle, massive condo/housing development...pretty much everything. Heck, IIRC the AUL and Bank One buildings went up after the Dome too.

    It wasn't just because of the Dome, but putting it there, getting a team in there, and bringing the suburbs downtown from time to time sure didn't hurt. The fact that it was so well integrated with the convention center made it even more beneficial.


    ps - props to MSA for getting the first wave of development going in the 70's

    I've done a fair bit of research on the effects of public funding on professional sports venues - particularly this Seattle situation and honestly, I'm 100% with the taxpayers of Seattle on this one. It just doesn't make sense for them.
    Yes, but the point here is that the SONICS are suddenly agreeing with it so they can be allowed to move. I highly doubt they made the same case when asking for a new arena.

    The reason they don't get one is because A) the public just paid for 2 other stadiums and B) Key is not old nor in a bad area.

    Now if the owners say "we think the city will miss us, but right now we don't seem to financially fit here" then okay. But suddenly buying into the Mayor's own response to their stadium requests? That's as disingenuous as it gets and certain to tick off the other owners.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 01-19-2008 at 11:34 AM.

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    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sonics are gonna be in all kinds of trouble with NBA Owners...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wu-Gambino View Post
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    Actually, there are a few huge developments planned around Lucas Oil Stadium.
    http://theurbanophile.blogspot.com/2...-unveiled.html
    http://www.indyrealestatetalk.com/a-...-indianapolis/

    It seems stadiums are hit and miss. In San Diego, the Padres' stadium is now surrounded by new hotels and condos. However, I think that football stadiums are the hardest stadiums to develop by. The great thing about baseball and even basketball is you have a great number of home games. Although football home games are almost rituals where you eventually spend the entire day at the stadium/area surrounding it (tailgate in the morning, maybe eat somewhere, go to the game, go somewhere to eat/drink after words), you only have a limited number a year. The good thing about LOS is that there will be other events that it can be used for and Indianapolis' set-up with the convention center is absolutely outstanding.

    I was originally very-pro stadium, and I still am. I think that the food and beverage tax was a fair way to pay for the stadium, but I increasingly believe that the Colts' should have paid more for the stadium. This is especially true considering how much money they bring in from sponsorship deals.

    The best argument for privately financed stadiums is SBC Park in San Francisco. It is one of the best sports venues in the country.
    Nice find. I guess my point is, the much larger convention center is the driver here from a business standpoint. People from conventions absolutely flood downtown frequently to eat lunch and fill the hotels. The proximity of this new development will draw huge numbers of convention traffic and is likely to be a success.

    However, this reminds me of the time when Union Station died. Circle Center got all the business traffic. This city may not be able to adequately support this. Considering we already have a stadium and have Conseco fieldhouse, I seriously doubt the stadium will bring many more people downtown from what the current events already draw. Certainly the low paying jobs being generated by these developments are not going to fill the stadium either.

    When Payton Manning leaves, the hangover should set in. ...and you thought Conseco Fieldhouse was quiet...

  25. #25
    sweabs
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    Default Re: Sonics are gonna be in all kinds of trouble with NBA Owners...

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Yes, but the point here is that the SONICS are suddenly agreeing with it so they can be allowed to move. I highly doubt they made the same case when asking for a new arena.

    The reason they don't get one is because A) the public just paid for 2 other stadiums and B) Key is not old nor in a bad area.

    Now if the owners say "we think the city will miss us, but right now we don't seem to financially fit here" then okay. But suddenly buying into the Mayor's own response to their stadium requests? That's as disingenuous as it gets and certain to tick off the other owners.
    The reason the Sonics asked for the new stadium in the first place was probably related to the fact that the owners knew it was a way to get out of Seattle. Because it makes that little of sense. I don't know what you mean by saying you doubt they made the same case when asking for a new arena. Sure, the Soncis didn't come out and say it would make no sense - but they realize that it wouldn't for all of the reasons I listed earlier and it would be a "justified" reason for leaving the city.

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