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Thread: Odd thoughts to wrap up the road trip.

  1. #26
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts to wrap up the road trip.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    I wasn't talking smack when I said that if JOB got them to 44 wins or whatever it was that I'd carry the JOB for COY sign around the circle.
    I think I predicted something like 32 wins for the year. We're actually above my expectations right now.

    But the reason you allow 32 wins this year is because you'll be a lot better next year. So what are we doing to get better next year?
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  2. #27
    Tree People to the Core! indygeezer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts to wrap up the road trip.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    This is going to be the umpteenth time I've posted it, but I don't get the big stink about boxing out, or lack there of.

    John Wooden didn't teach his teams to box out, and he's considered one of, if not the, greatest coaches of all time. He taught that all 5 players should go after the ball, and not retreat to find a man, and essentially going the opposite direction as the ball.

    JO's lack of boxing out might, or the whole team's, might not be the lack of talent/desire/ability/knowledge to do so. It could be JOB's coaching philosophy. It could be that JO feels like he's better just going after the ball.

    One thing is definately for sure. Foster doesn't box out, and I've yet read someone *****ing about him not rebounding enough.

    I don't particularly like JO as a player, but sometimes it feels like people will use a player's shoe size as a way to talk negatively about them.
    Early on in his career the word on JO was that he didn't have the fundamentals to rebound and that he merely used his athleticism to jump over people grab the rebound before they got to it. Now that his hops are weakening I'm still not so sure that he doesn't rely more on brute strength than positioning. I'm going to pay a bit more attention to this.
    Ah carp...how many in the NBA really boxout anyway? Most just occupy a space on the floor and then fight for the ball...there could probably be 3 fouls called on every rebound.
    If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

  3. #28
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts to wrap up the road trip.

    You know what I'd try?

    We got all those big leads with two bigs, but we keep blowing them with the same lineup. How about when we get the big lead and teams start cutting into it, then go small ball.

  4. #29
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts to wrap up the road trip.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    This is going to be the umpteenth time I've posted it, but I don't get the big stink about boxing out, or lack there of.

    John Wooden didn't teach his teams to box out, and he's considered one of, if not the, greatest coaches of all time. He taught that all 5 players should go after the ball, and not retreat to find a man, and essentially going the opposite direction as the ball.
    I won't believe this until you quote it from somewhere. I've asked before and gotten no response.

    My Dad played for John Wooden, I've been to his house. And I've never heard anything growing up except how important it is to box out.

    I'm not saying it's impossible for me to be wrong. But I'll need some documentation.
    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  5. #30

    Default Re: Odd thoughts to wrap up the road trip.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Look, a big reason why I've always defended Rick was because I felt like he made choices meant to reduce risk and hide weak spots. People may hate the slower pace that results in, people may find his underspoken demeanor boring, but to me the reason the team ended up playing the style they did was because it gave them the best possible chance to win.

    I don't think JOB is dumb anymore than Rick was. I think JOB is finding his way into this roster. Perhaps he was naive coming into the job, but as he gets results and deals with these guys long term he's probably going to push closer to what Rick did. Sure it will still be with his style to it, but ultimately he's facing the same limitations Rick did.

    The roster is a mess, that's why the coaches have struggled with it. People ripped on Rick for putting Tins in the doghouse or "playing favorites", but now we see JOB doing the exact same thing. Is that pure chance or does it indicate something about the roster?


    What this means is that I'm partially with Peck and partially with Will. There is a method to this, but at the same time it's a bit like flying a plane that just lost a wing. You try lots of things to make it work but in the end that sucker is just going to crash.

    I wasn't talking smack when I said that if JOB got them to 44 wins or whatever it was that I'd carry the JOB for COY sign around the circle. It was because for this team to do that it would mean he had pulled it off, he had made this roster work. I stand by that, IF he does it it will be very impressive.
    I agree with you that RC's style initially suited the roster he had to work with, but even you have to admit that when that roster began to change RC's coaching style did not.

    Example, while the Pacers still had JO and Foster as their only legit Bigs, RC continued to push the inside/outside game. By that time, the team had lost Artest, Al and Crosher. In return, they got Murphy and Ike, and had Harrison as a "up and coming Center"......and yet RC still pushed the inside/outside game. Granted, JO and Foster were still here, but I seriously doubt anyone would have believed that any combination of JO and any other Big on this roster post-Artest would have been as formidable as JO/Artest!! When you're able to get nearly 40 ppg from two of your front-court starters...'Nuff Said, but I'll elaborate anyway just so every understands where I'm coming from.

    The Pacers had lost both Jones Boys, Reggie and SJax, and got Peja on a six month loan......threw away James White before the season inwhich he was drafted even began, and got Dunleavy, Ike and Murphy - a PF who would rather play like a SG - and a few other up and coming players through the draft and/or trades.

    Do you see where I'm going with this? The makeup of the team slowly began to change, but RC continued to push his style of play on the roster. Granted, some of those changes occured during the course of a season, but many of them occured during the off-season which should have given him time to make the adjustments necessary to find an offense that truly fit the roster he had. But he didn't. That's why I said during the summer of '06 that the only way you bring RC back was if he got players who truly fit his coaching style.

    In reality, no matter what position one may have wanted to "plug" players into, the '06-07 Pacers had 7-Guards (Tinsley, Armstrong, McLeod, Daniels, Green, Dunleavy, and Marshall), 5 Forwarded (Baston, Willliams, Murphy, Granger and Ike), and 3 Centers (JO, Foster and Harrison). The only way a true inside/outside scheme works is if you have good shooters and a helluva dominate interior presence.

    JO and Artest gave the Pacers that dominante interior presence in '04-05. That's why they could afford to get away with not having another dominate Center to spar JO. You just plugged Crosher out there w/Foster and left Artest on the floor and you still had a rebounder, and shooter (w/Reggie sometimes) and a interior presence in Artest. That all began to change w/the Brawl, and the Pacers have never been able to acquire a "manageable" roster ever since. By "manageable", I'm referring to TPTB being able to move away from "damage control...patch-work mode w/the roster" to truly bringing in the types of players they want to play the brand of basketball they (including the coach) envision. That's still going to take another year or two, but they'll get there. In the meanwhile, JOB has to find those players on today's roster who fit his style of basketball. I think he's one player away from doing that.

    IMO, the Pacers need another low-post player who can spare JO and give them 8-10 ppg and play some defense. I had hoped Ike or Harrison would be able to do that, but it's beginning to look as if both are a wash. If TPTB can acquire that player by the trade deadline w/o losing any of (who I believe are) the core players (1-8, but not necessarily in that order: JO, Granger, Dunleavy, Rush, Deiner, Williams, Quis, and dare I say it...Tinsley), I think this small-ball lineup of JOB's could very well work indeed.

    Sidenote: I liked RC. I thought he was a very good coach, but he he was burned out and IMO had lost the team long before the end of last season. All the Artest/Brawl drama and then the injuries, etc., etc. It's alot to ask of anyone man to endure. If he ever returns to coaching in the NBA, I'd wish him well.
    Last edited by NuffSaid; 01-15-2008 at 04:20 PM.

  6. #31
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts to wrap up the road trip.

    Quote Originally Posted by NuffSaid View Post
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    I agree with you that RC's style initially suited the roster he had to work with, but even you have to admit that when that roster began to change RC's coaching style did not.

    Example, while the Pacers still had JO and Foster as their only legit Bigs, RC continued to push the inside/outside game. By that time, the team had lost Artest, Al and Crosher. In return, they got Murphy and Ike, and had Harrison as a "up and coming Center"......and yet RC still pushed the inside/outside game. Granted, JO and Foster were still here, but I seriously doubt anyone would have believed that any combination of JO and any other Big on this roster post-Artest would have been as formidable as JO/Artest!! When you're able to get nearly 40 ppg from two of your front-court starters...'Nuff Said, but I'll elaborate anyway just so every understands where I'm coming from.

    The Pacers had lost both Jones Boys, Reggie and SJax, and got Peja on a six month loan......threw away James White before the season inwhich he was drafted even began, and got Dunleavy, Ike and Murphy - a PF who would rather play like a SG - and a few other up and coming players through the draft and/or trades.

    Do you see where I'm going with this? The makeup of the team slowly began to change, but RC continued to push his style of play on the roster. Granted, some of those changes occured during the course of a season, but many of them occured during the off-season which should have given him time to make the adjustments necessary to find an offense that truly fit the roster he had. But he didn't. That's why I said during the summer of '06 that the only way you bring RC back was if he got players who truly fit his coaching style.

    In reality, no matter what position one may have wanted to "plugged" players into, the '06-07 Pacers had 7-Guards (Tinsley, Armstrong, McLeod, Daniels, Green, Dunleavy, and Marshall), 5 Forwarded (Baston, Willliams, Murphy, Granger and Ike), and 3 Centers (JO, Foster and Harrison). The only way a true inside/outside scheme works is if you have good shooters and a helluva dominate interior presence.

    JO and Artest gave the Pacers that dominante interior presence in '04-05. That's why they could afford to get away with not having another dominate Center to spar JO. You just plugged Crosher out there w/Foster and left Artest on the floor and you still had a rebounder, and shooter (w/Reggie sometimes) and a interior presence in Artest. That all began to change w/the Brawl, and the Pacers have never been able to acquire a "manageable" roster ever since. By "manageable", I'm referring to TPTB being able to move away from "damage control...patch-work mode w/the roster" to truly bringing in the types of players they want to play the brand of basketball they (including the coach) envision. That's still going to take another year or two, but they'll get there. In the meanwhile, JOB has to find those players on today's roster who fit his style of basketball. I think he's one player away from doing that.

    IMO, the Pacers need another low-post player who can spare JO and give them 8-10 ppg and play some defense. I had hoped Ike or Harrison would be able to do that, but it's beginning to look as if both are a wash. If TPTB can acquire that player by the trade deadline w/o losing any of (who I believe are) the core players (1-8, but not necessarily in that order: JO, Granger, Dunleavy, Rush, Deiner, Williams, Quis, and dare I say it...Tinsley), I think this small-ball lineup of JOB's could very well work indeed.

    Sidenote: I liked RC. I thought he was a very good coach, but he he was burned out and IMO had lost the team long before the end of last season. All the Artest/Brawl drama and then the injuries, etc., etc. It's alot to ask of anyone man to endure. If he ever returns to coaching in the NBA, I'd wish him well.
    I agree with what you are saying, however I don't know that it is a fault of Rick's that he coached "his style" till the end.

    Do you think that Jim O'Brien would somehow change his style if he were presented with a roster of players who did not fit? Or would he try and make them play his way?

    My guess is that coach's in general will not adapt to the team, they want the team to addapt to them.

    I still believe Carlisle was a great coach and got a bum rap here, but I am also of the opinion that his time had come and it was time to move on.

    As you said, last season was not the first season he had lost the team.

    The one great fault that I find in the last half of his tenure is this.

    He either did not know how to coach Jermaine O'Neal or he had no choice in how he coached Jermaine O'Neal.

    I've said it before and I will say it till I die, Rick did not coach the style of play we saw here other than when he was with Jermaine. He did not coach that way in Detroit, he did not assistant coach that way when he was here in the 90's, he did not coach that way during the brawl and suspenion year.

    Again, I don't know if it was because this is what Rick thought was best. Whether J.O. would not accept any other role or whether management said this is the way it had to be. I just don't know.

    All I know is that our offense became predictable, easily guardable and stagnate, not to mention boring to watch.

    But you do bring to the table a good point about all of the talent we have lost over the years, it's not just the G.S. trade.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts to wrap up the road trip.

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I won't believe this until you quote it from somewhere. I've asked before and gotten no response.

    My Dad played for John Wooden, I've been to his house. And I've never heard anything growing up except how important it is to box out.

    I'm not saying it's impossible for me to be wrong. But I'll need some documentation.
    I'm going on what I heard him say, in person. I saw him speak at Hinkle Fieldhouse 6 or so ago, and when he said it the place went deafly quiet, like they couldn't believe he just said that.

    This doesn't have a source either, but considering this thread was the second link from a google search I doubt a lot is going to be turned up anyway.

    I used to coach boxing out and still do some boxing out drills, but they alone are not enough.
    Since every college coach in America pays lip service to John Wooden, I will quote him on the three most important aspects of rebounding:
    1. Assume every shot will be missed
    2. Get your hands above your shoulders
    3. Go get the ball
    http://www.utefans.net/archive.php?action=View&id=2856

    Notice there is no mention of finding a man, putting a body on a man, nothing about making contact with anything but the ball.

    The author goes on with his observations:
    The Utes are really bad at #2 and #3. They are so focused on boxing out that they have their hands down around their waste trying to contain their opponent, and their weight is leaning away from the basket, and they just stay there when the ball hits the rim, rather than GOING TO GET THE BALL, which is the real point of rebounding anyway. Bogut didn't box out much, but he went and got the ball.
    I now try to teach my teams to 'clear out' -- go make contact with your opponent, push him out of the lane, then step away to get some separation and GO GET THE BALL.
    The highlited part is what Coach Wooden said was his reasoning. He said that he found players turned it more into a fight over positioning than it was a fight over the ball. They would be so concerned with boxing out they forgot why they were boxing out in the first place.

    I'm not saying which I think is better, I'm just saying there are different coaching philosophies about rebounding and JOB might be the reasoning behind it as opposed to the actual player.

    But it still doesn't negate the fact that Foster doesn't box out and no one has a problem with it. He just beats his man, and everyone for that matter, to the ball. I think he "steals" a lot of rebounds from his teammates because of it.

  8. #33
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts to wrap up the road trip.

    I think Wooden's method was "Check and go"... And I think it's still "boxing out". The only difference is how quickly you release and go for the ball.

    And when you see a player smoke JO like he did in the GSW game you know there was no 'check' part to JO's rebounding method.

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  9. #34
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts to wrap up the road trip.

    Quote Originally Posted by NuffSaid View Post
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    JO and Artest gave the Pacers that dominante interior presence in '04-05. That's why they could afford to get away with not having another dominate Center to spar JO. You just plugged Crosher out there w/Foster and left Artest on the floor and you still had a rebounder, and shooter (w/Reggie sometimes) and a interior presence in Artest. That all began to change w/the Brawl, and the Pacers have never been able to acquire a "manageable" roster ever since. By "manageable", I'm referring to TPTB being able to move away from "damage control...patch-work mode w/the roster" to truly bringing in the types of players they want to play the brand of basketball they (including the coach) envision. That's still going to take another year or two, but they'll get there. In the meanwhile, JOB has to find those players on today's roster who fit his style of basketball. I think he's one player away from doing that.
    Very, very, good!

    This is THE paragraph for those who wonder what the Pacers are doing.

    I think they still need to do some damage control. I think Tinsley and Harrison need to go too. The problem is Tinsley is our starting point guard and we need to get another viable point before getting rid of him.

    Myself, I would probably gamble and get rid of him and hope we get his replacement in the draft.

  10. #35

    Default Re: Odd thoughts to wrap up the road trip.

    Will,

    The problem w/moving Tinsley IMO is the same w/moving JO, Dunleavy and Murhpy - their huge contracts!

    Hypothetically speaking, someone might be willing to take a chance on JO only because he was an All-Star and he's still a defensive force. He may not be putting up the numbers he did a year or so ago, but there's still some production in him. Truth is, his game is alot more rounded than it was 2-3 yrs ago, and that adds to his value. The fact that he's not getting the ball 18-20 apg but has still managed to score in the mid-upper teens is pretty good!

    Tinsley's putting up All-Star-like numbers, but his end-game performance plus is decision making at times are questionable. I sure teams have inquired about him, but I'm not sure if he alone would garner this team a quality player in his place.

    Murphy is alot like Foster in that he's a "servicable" player. Meaning that he'll never be a true starting C/PF; any team who wants him has to know exactly how they intend to "plug" him into their system.

    Of the four players on this team w/large contracts, Dunleavy is probably the best trade commodity of the group. His stats have improved and have remained constant. He's a "system" player, but he's shown he can be creative at times as well.

    So, I don't think it will be easy to move any of these players right now. That's why in the section of my most post you've quoted I said it's going to atleast another 2 yrs before TPTB can start making some moves because teams are more willing to take on expiring or near-expiring contracts in trades than they are contracts w/3+ yrs remaining on them.

  11. #36
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts to wrap up the road trip.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    I think I predicted something like 32 wins for the year. We're actually above my expectations right now.

    But the reason you allow 32 wins this year is because you'll be a lot better next year. So what are we doing to get better next year?
    Is murdering your way to the top still out?

    Just checking. The alternate plans seem to be running thin.
    Carn-son-it, dagnabbit, and assorted other old man grumbles.


    The one ray of hope was the blurb in the Star about all the other times the team was way below .500 with more losses than they have now where they turned it on to make the playoffs (with at least 40 wins each time I believe).

    Of course that's not a plan for the future, that's finding a way to win a little with what they've got.


    Do you think that Jim O'Brien would somehow change his style if he were presented with a roster of players who did not fit? Or would he try and make them play his way?
    Ummmm, is this a trick question? I mean you do know his style and who is on this roster, right? Thin at the 3 ball though Dun has saved it with a monster adjustment, weak with stars that create their own shot ala AI or Pierce, weak on perimeter defense. And $20m of the payroll is on a slow-down post scorer who must play because he's the only one holding the defense together.

    I'd say there aren't many rosters that are a bigger mismatch to JOB's style, and I'm pretty sure he's been trying to make it work anyway. I don't fault him, Bird knew who he was when he was hired. You do what you do, if they didn't want that they would have picked someone else.

    some of those changes occured during the course of a season, but many of them occured during the off-season which should have given him time to make the adjustments necessary to find an offense that truly fit the roster he had. But he didn't.
    And even pre-trade Rick DID TRY to force the roster to be uptempo, which was a mistake IMO because it was neither his style nor appropriate for the roster he had. That was an adjustment made in the summer after the FIRST TIME EVER that Rick ONLY made it to the first round of the playoffs. What a freaking loser, time to change styles.

    That roster was headed for .500 yet again pre-trade. And expecting a massive overhaul when the major trade happened mid-season is crazy.

    And yet Rick DID CHANGE things. When Dun arrived Rick used him as a spot up 3 ball. After that proved to be a mistake he stopped it and put Dun coming off 2pt curls and reduced his 3pt attempts (stats back this, not just opinion). Murph he started having go off dribble once he saw that he could. And it's not like anyone at PD was saying "boy Ike stinks, he chokes in the double team every time" at the time of the trade. In fact most of you were jocking Ike pretty hard. So like us, Rick had to learn Ike's game over time and adjust.

    Tell me what JOB is doing with Ike that Rick didn't do? Exactly. And Harrison? Has JOB benched Tins in favor of the backup like RICK DID (Anderson, AJ, even Saras got a little run)? Has JOB not put Quis (and others) deep on the bench out of nowhere? Didn't Rick have to make do without Quis for most of the post-trade period, his main scorer off the dribble?

    Look at the brawl year, look at the 3pt attempts before and after that. There's your flipping adjustment. They went from like 15-16 to 25-30 per game. If that's not changing style to match your roster I don't know what is.

    And frankly I still hear you guys moaning about JOB having them feed the ball to JO. Anyone want to tell me what play JOB called to end the GS game? Anyone? I know, it was SOOOO different than what you guys say Rick did, right?

    I'm sorry about the tone, but GD'it. There is a veritable laundry list of proof here that shows that Rick did adjust and that JOB has come to a lot of the same conclusions. I mean get back to me when JOB actually has won more than 35 with this group. I'm not saying he won't, but I am saying he's getting credit for solving something when the results aren't in yet and the current projection says nothing is different.

    But why should I be surprised. 3 games in we had the Tins was right, Rick was wrong thread.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 01-16-2008 at 12:57 AM.

  12. #37
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts to wrap up the road trip.

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    Very, very, good!

    This is THE paragraph for those who wonder what the Pacers are doing.

    I think they still need to do some damage control. I think Tinsley and Harrison need to go too. The problem is Tinsley is our starting point guard and we need to get another viable point before getting rid of him.

    Myself, I would probably gamble and get rid of him and hope we get his replacement in the draft.
    I do agree that bit by NuffSaid was solid. I do think the roster situation is that way.


    I just think NS, Peck and some others still don't recognize that JOB is struggling through basically the same issues as Rick, which is basically trying to deal with a team that doesn't fit ANY styles.

    I mean who would win more with this team, is this team built for the triangle? Or Utah's front line passing schemes? They don't have great defenders, they don't have a huge list of strong shooters, they don't have great speed or quickness or size.

    3pt shooting in JAN, you've got 4 guys with 20 attempts
    Dun and Danny, over 40%, awesome
    But that's your SF and PF in small ball where Dun doesn't get beat by speed on defense as much.
    At PG/SG you have Rush and Diener, both sub-31%. 31.

    If you didn't like Jack's poor shooting, then WTF is there to like about Rush shooting 30% on nearly 5 attempts per game? That's your backcourt shooting. And thanks to only playing 4 games I didn't mention Tinsley's 1 for flipping 13 (8%) from 3 this month.

    And good lord Tins and Troy are both SUB 1.00 on Points per Shot (in Jan) which is just off the charts bad. 1.10-1.15 is your "poor" range on that. Average guys run 1.20 area, stars run closer to 1.40.

    And among the top 20 Assist per game players Tinsley ranks as one of the worst in Assist to TO ratio. The guys worse than him tend to be primary self-scorers like AI, Wade and Lebron...you know, guys who's PPS is hella higher than sub-1.00.

    This roster just isn't functioning nearly as well as some people think, there is a real problem of mismatched talent, not just 1-2 guys away. Just like last year the "depth" stems as much from not having high quality starting talent as it does from having some great bench.

    It's not about "if only they would play a different style". It's about getting a more functional mix of players. Then the style that suits them as a group will become more apparent I think.

  13. #38
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts to wrap up the road trip.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    It's not about "if only they would play a different style". It's about getting a more functional mix of players. Then the style that suits them as a group will become more apparent I think.
    I hate to just post "me too" but...

    Me too.
    BillS

    "Every time I pitched it was like throwing gasoline on a fire. Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw!"
    - Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh

  14. #39
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts to wrap up the road trip.

    I didn't think I was gonna end up watching the game because I knew the outcome and score, but I watched it after classes this morning.

    JO shouldn't be faulted at the end of his lack of boxing out. Beidrins (sp?) was on his left and Barnes was right behind him. No one rotated down when the Ws were swinging the ball. Most rebounds come off weakside, and JO protected the weakside. It caught the back of the rim and bounced off straight.

    Could he have done better? Sure, but other than being so low almost under the basket he did what he should have.

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