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Thread: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

  1. #26
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    Originally Posted by granger33
    Call me a fool . . .





    Who didn't see that one coming?



    Anyway, UncleBuck, please explain why Ike doesn't fit on your plan. I know his numbers aren't good, but that is because the team doesn't fit well together and needs to be retooled. One could argue for building around him (and others). How come he doesn't fit in your retooling plan?

    Ike likes to hold the ball, he likes to pound it and try to get his shot. This system requires quick ball movement and big guys that are willing to screen and pass the ball.

    Ike is having a lot of trouble picking up the defensive system, he really looks lost out there. This system demands a lot on the big guys, they are asked to do the majority of the work.

    But really what convinced me more than anything was a couple of games ago, when O'Brien decided to play David instead of Ike. If that doesn't convince us than nothing will.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 01-10-2008 at 01:27 PM.

  2. #27
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    Ok, I see that point of view.


    UncleBuck is making a different argument. He says that Ike has talent, but doesn't fit with the system. Granted that is evident. My question is, if the system has to change, why jettison a "talented" player rather than retool to make him fit better?
    He has some talent - he can score, although he isn't great in the post, more on short spot up jumpers. (He also doesn't run the court well).

    Ike isn't talented enough to retool the system to fit his abilities. He just isn't worth it.

  3. #28
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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Quote Originally Posted by mellifluous View Post
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    I'll take a stab at it. I agree that Ike is talented, but here's why I think he should be traded.

    1.) Granger and Williams are the future at the 3/4 postions.
    2.) Ike cannot play the 5 spot regularly for quite a few reasons.
    3.) J.O'B cleary prefers to play Murphy, Foster, and JO over Ike.
    4.) Ike is young, talented, and has a cheap contract. This means his trade value is much higher than the players in front of him in the rotation.

    Personally, I think that Ike could play the 4 in this system reasonably well, but if it comes down to a choice between Ike and Shawne (which I think it does) it's not a hard decision.

  4. #29
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    Yup.

    We need to rebuild, folks. Keep Shawne and probably Danny and dump pretty much everyone else over the next couple years for draft picks, expiring contracts, and players with potential that are languishing on the bench elsewhere.

    In other words, follow the Portland model of rebuilding. If they could unload that entire roster of miscreants with big contracts, then so can we.
    Shade I know you didn't suggest I was living in denial. Others did, but I don't think I am living in denial. I have no problem rebuilding, but it isn't going to happen right away or during this season. I suggested that JO doesn't fit into this offense - that is obvious to everyone. I wanted the pacers trade trade JO this past summer or really the summer prior to that. Tinsley fits this offense rather well - or at least his talents do. Dunleavy fits, I think granger does, Williams does. Murphy doesn't really fit anywhere, but he'll be too hard to trade, so he'll be here quite awhile. Foster fits. Ike doesn't. Daniels is fine.

    If they want to rebuild that is fine by me, but I also think if the pacers trade JO and a few other players like Ike and if a really smart trade or two are made, I don't think we have to rebuild.

  5. #30
    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    That's what I'm talking 'bout UB. What's up with me coming around a gushing all over Buck today? Jermaine may not be able to demand the same kind of player he could a couple of season's ago but he should be able to net a couple of players that do really fit into this system ( maybe even the coveted young ones) and Ike's youth and contract make him attractive to teams that fit his style better. Where we don't agree is with Daniels. I think Daniels is an good player but a better trading piece.

  6. #31

    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Thanks, everybody, for the clarifications. I understand the argument clearly now.


    I guess all I can add is:

    They'll have to make the best of things,
    It's an uphill climb.
    Last edited by Putnam; 01-10-2008 at 02:26 PM.
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    It all dries up and blows away
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  7. #32
    Get well PG! QuickRelease's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    You're a fool.
    Why do you say that? He wouldn't be more than a role player, but you can never have enough pure shooters. At the least, he'd be someone on the floor that a defender couldn't help off of, so I'd love to have him, especially since we seem to love jacking up scores of 3's.

  8. #33
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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    Where we don't agree is with Daniels. I think Daniels is an good player but a better trading piece.
    I'm with you on this one. I'd probably put Daniels on the list right behind Ike and JO as far as trade assets. If UB's right and Daniels is not our backup PG, then it really comes down to either he or Rush for the backup 2. Rush fits the system better and seems to be showing up a little bit more every game. If Daniels were to be moved, I'd not be too upset.
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  9. #34
    Member LoneGranger33's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    People I'd like to see traded for picks and relief
    1 - Troy Murphy, the albatross
    2 - Marquis Daniels, the half-wit
    3 - Ike Diogu, the midget

  10. #35
    Get well PG! QuickRelease's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneGranger33 View Post
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    People I'd like to see traded for picks and relief
    1 - Troy Murphy, the albatross
    2 - Marquis Daniels, the half-wit
    3 - Ike Diogu, the midget
    Why is Marquis a half-wit?

  11. #36
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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnybegood View Post
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    Why is Marquis a half-wit?
    He forces the action more than Kobe in a Colorado hotel room.
    And he makes worse decisions than a drunk Donald Rumsfeld.

  12. #37
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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Quote Originally Posted by pacerfreak View Post
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    I know I'm not UB so excuse me for answering. Ike just doesn't seem that good or that talented (as far as what he has shown us).
    people seem to forget how well ike was playing before the injury. he carried us during stretches in the first three games (wins against WAS, MIA and MEM). those stretches we see now where no one can hit a thing, ike was putting us on his back and carrying us. suddenly he's a no-talent hack? i don't buy it. he played three solid games, then got injured and since coming back hasn't looked as good. injury could still be lingering or it could be more of a timing issue, who knows.

    i'm not saying he shouldn't be traded as some have suggested -- given the state of this team i'd consider everyone available for the right deal. but i think saying ike isn't good or talented is having a short memory.
    This is the darkest timeline.

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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Quote Originally Posted by avoidingtheclowns View Post
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    people seem to forget how well ike was playing before the injury. he carried us during stretches in the first three games (wins against WAS, MIA and MEM). those stretches we see now where no one can hit a thing, ike was putting us on his back and carrying us.
    -12
    -12
    -11

    Those are Ike's +/- numbers for the first three games. I like Ike and think he's quite talented, but if he was carrying us at any point during those games, he obviously wasn't doing that great of a job of it.
    "A man with no belly has no appetite for life."

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  14. #39

    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    As disappointed as I was that my boyz lose, I agree with UB that there were some positives that should be taken away from the game.

    Small ball should be the way this team plays. I've felt for some time that Deiner should have remained the BU-PG, but agreed with most that he needed to sit back and work on his defense alittle bit. So, as much as it pained me to watch Quis at the Point, sitting Deiner out may have turned out to be a good thing. His shooting touch has returned and like Rush, he's starting to use other parts of his game to be more effective instead of being just a long-ball jump shooter, and his defense has actually improved!

    I've long wanted to see Shawne Williams on the floor backing up Granger and/or Dunleavy, whomever started at SF. Anyone who watched him perform after returning from his 3-game "team imposed" suspension knows he was very aggressive and showed alot of confidence on the floor no matter who he was up against. Moreover, he was scoring the ball very well, reading the defense and was multi-faceted out there using jump shots, baseline drives and even showing some athleticism under the rim.

    I became convinced that Rush should become the team's 6th Man at the very least ever since that Bulls game where he laid down 20+ pts. He's been a reliable scorer coming off the bench since then avg. 14 ppg in under 20 minutes. Let him start again and let's see if his production increases! His defense has improved alot since the start of the season. He has quickness and very good lateral movement AND he knows when to rotate defensively and when NOT to foul although he has been called for some very questional ticky-tack fouls of late IMO.

    I love the energy, hustle and dedication to the fundamentals Jeff Foster brings. I just wish he'd learn how to put the ball on the floor and either drive to the basket more or just take the open shot! He's usually left alone out there because most defenders don't believe he'll shot the ball. He doesn't have very good handles, but I still think he'd be far more useful as an X-Factor mid-range/interior player if he'd just find some confidence in his shot and start taking more of them rather than passing the ball off so much. When he goes strong to the basket, he's been very effective!

    I thought last night's lineup of Granger (PF), Dunleavy (SF), Foster, Tinsley and Rush (SG) w/Williams as 6th Man and Deiner as BU/PG represents this team's best players, 1-7, who fits JOB's uptempo system extremely well! I'd like to see this lineup more often even if it means bringing JO off the bench which IMO might not be such a bad idea considering he's not 100% anyway.

    The team effort was there last night, and it didn't look like players were performing from a sense of despiration, like a team who needed a win badly! They looked like they "belonged" out there together. Like I've said in other threads concerning last night's loss, this team performed very well until around the 3:45 minute of the 4th quarter. Sad to say, that's when the bottom fell out.
    Last edited by NuffSaid; 01-10-2008 at 05:26 PM.

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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Quote Originally Posted by avoidingtheclowns View Post
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    people seem to forget how well ike was playing before the injury. he carried us during stretches in the first three games (wins against WAS, MIA and MEM). those stretches we see now where no one can hit a thing, ike was putting us on his back and carrying us. suddenly he's a no-talent hack? i don't buy it. he played three solid games, then got injured and since coming back hasn't looked as good. injury could still be lingering or it could be more of a timing issue, who knows.

    i'm not saying he shouldn't be traded as some have suggested -- given the state of this team i'd consider everyone available for the right deal. but i think saying ike isn't good or talented is having a short memory.
    I don't mind saying that I am probably one of the few here that agree with you. I don't think that Ike is Starter material....simply cuz there are some important limitations in his game....but I think that he would better fit the Backup Big Man role ( probably as a 4th/5th Big Man ) that would be used on a situational basis.

    I don't expect him to carry us on his back.....but the one key thing that he does best is try to score in or near the paint....something that I think is needed at times when we begin to bet too comfortable with taking our jumpshots.

    I know that in JO'Bs offense that it requires a lot of ball movement....but it also requires efficient scoring from all positions. I think that there are times when it would be better to slow things down ( like when we have a lead ) and get the ball to a player that has a good chance of scoring the ball. Depending on the situation....I think that Ike would be good at doing that.

    For example, I suggested it twice in the Suns Post-Game thread....but I honestly think that Ike would have helped during that huge stretch in the 4th QTR when no one was able to score the ball. I agree that he could be as bad as JONeal when it come to pounding the ball, passing out and even worse on defense.....but what many people forget is that Ike ( much like Marquis ) is very good getting his body inside the paint and drawing fouls. To me...this is something that we really needed yesterday...scoring in the paint, trying to draw fouls and subsequently getting Marion or Stoudamire in foul trouble.

    I agree that if the right deal came along, I would probably consider moving him. However, I would like to see him used more in the offense in a backup role where he gets consistent minutes before passing any final judgements on him. At least for this season..... I would give up on JONeal ( which I have pretty much done ) before I give up on Ike. With Ike, I think that there is a chance that he can grow into the role that I think that he is better suited for.
    Last edited by CableKC; 01-10-2008 at 05:28 PM.
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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Why don't we trade Ike and a filler to Sacramento for Mike Bibby (I'm aware he hasn't played all season but I'm not sure if he's due back or not.). I don't think that's a trade that would exactly hurt us right now, actually it would help us a great deal. Bibby's value isn't all that high right now either which makes it a good time to make that deal.

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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    Bynum doesn't play in a slog ball offense at all.

    It probably doesn't hurt that he has players like Kobe surrounding him, either.
    I wasn't necessarily saying he is a traditional slog ball player while everybody else stands around and lets him go to work - ala JO, as much as I was trying to point out that Andrew is one of the few centers in the league that can use his size and power to dominate inside. Look at his domination against us in the first half, and he is only 20. Just wait till he learns how to play.

    I can agree with you that playing with Kobe makes him better, even though I still cant stand Kobe.

  18. #43
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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    1) Diener needs to be the back up point guard. He needs to play 10-15 minutes per night. (Sure there might be the occassional game against bigger point guards where he won't be able to play too much) but he runs our offense very well - he can shoot, he is really a good passer - I mean really good, he has a feel for how to run an offense. Sure his defense isn't good, but what else is new on this team. We need Diener to be the backup point guard. Play Diener - I just hope his ankle is OK. He runs the offense so much better than Daniels or Owens and in fact he provides an offensive spark


    I am glad someone else feels like I do regarding Diener..


    But to be honest this is what I believe should be done with this Indiana Pacers team ...

    start playing him as backup ..
    start giving him 15 to 19 minutes per game..
    gradually increasing his minutes per game... and make him a starter... with Owens as his backup off the bench..

    Eventually try packaging up and trading Tinsley and J.O for an all star caliber Center or Power Forward before the deadline this year.. even if we have to get rid of Harrison in some kinda deal... it needs to be done.. Harrison is about worthless.. He has all the talent in the world.. but all he is good for is fouling out .. or getting hurt.. lol .. I would really love for him to breakout and have a good season , but I have all but given up on waiting for him to come around...

    as far as the other players on the team ..
    I absolutely want us to keep Dunleavy .. I believe he was BORN to be , and retire as an Indiana Pacer... and he will only get better and better as he is with us.. I love this guy...

    without JO , I believe Granger will get more consistant.. and I really do like the guy..

    I believe we STOLE Kareem Rush .. as the season wears on , and Rush plays more.. I believe it will get to the point where we will have to offer him alot better contract to keep him here.. I see him developing into an all star if he dedicates himself to the game.. as his shooting stroke gets consistant.. and gets to play more minutes ..

    Most of ya'll already know my feelings on Diener.. ... He should be developed to be our starting Pg... bar-none..


    Foster... what can I say.. He is a Pacer.. through and through.. and is our foundation... great rebounder , and always there to tip in a miss.. we need Jeff... no ifs ands or buts.. He always gives 110% .. he may not be a scorer.. but he is always good for 10 to 12 points , 10 to 12+ rebs per game , and he has saved our *** many a times with his defense at the rim..


    Ike.. I like the guy.. he has shown flashes of brilliance.. and is a good player.. he just needs more time... I think he will develop nicely .. the more he gets to play... and the more he gets to know this pacers team..

  19. #44
    '12 PD Sunshiner awardee Kemo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Oneal07 View Post
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    I heard last night he didn't play much cause he was a "liability" on defence.

    Whoever thinks that Diener is a liability on defense.. and Tinsley is not .. is smoking CRACK...!!!

    While TD may not be a good defensive player... Tinsley is horrid at defense.. just horrid.... the only thing JT does well .. (when he actually does it ) is steal the ball....

    otherwise JT's defense is a liability... moreso than ANYONE on the team...

    seriously take any random games and look at the stats of Tinsley and whoever he was matched up against....

    he allows his opponent to pretty much get anything off they want... ..

    If JOB actually said that or thinks that about TD being a liability on defense.. and thats his reasoning.. maybe JOB needs to lay off the pipe .. as well..

  20. #45
    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Quote Originally Posted by avoidingtheclowns View Post
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    people seem to forget how well ike was playing before the injury. he carried us during stretches in the first three games (wins against WAS, MIA and MEM). those stretches we see now where no one can hit a thing, ike was putting us on his back and carrying us. suddenly he's a no-talent hack? i don't buy it. he played three solid games, then got injured and since coming back hasn't looked as good. injury could still be lingering or it could be more of a timing issue, who knows.

    i'm not saying he shouldn't be traded as some have suggested -- given the state of this team i'd consider everyone available for the right deal. but i think saying ike isn't good or talented is having a short memory.
    That's exactly my position on Ike aswell.

    And the thing with the +/- statistics is that you have to use it on every player, not just Ike. Besides, I don't think it's that meaningfull of a statistic to just throw out there without some added info like who was on the floor when he was, etc.? Anyway, I think Ike has still not fully recovered from his injury since coming back .

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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneGranger33 View Post
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    People I'd like to see traded for picks and relief
    1 - Troy Murphy, the albatross
    2 - Marquis Daniels, the half-wit
    3 - Ike Diogu, the midget
    I realize a lot of people want to wave a magic wand in front of Murphy and turn him into a 1st round pick, but it's not happening.

    It's not as if teams around the league are lining up to get a piece of Troy Murphy and are offering all these picks and short contracts in return.

    If you value picks and cap relief, well guess what? The same goes for about 27 or 28 other teams in the league. Everyone wants draft picks. Everyone wants cap relief. Get in line. Those are the commodities everyone wants. Name me a GM who doesn't want those things.

    It's not as if other teams around the league not named the Pacers are saying that they want to trade away their picks in return for guys with bloated contracts.

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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Quote Originally Posted by d_c View Post
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    I realize a lot of people want to wave a magic wand in front of Murphy and turn him into a 1st round pick, but it's not happening.

    It's not as if teams around the league are lining up to get a piece of Troy Murphy and are offering all these picks and short contracts in return.

    If you value picks and cap relief, well guess what? The same goes for about 27 or 28 other teams in the league. Everyone wants draft picks. Everyone wants cap relief. Get in line. Those are the commodities everyone wants. Name me a GM who doesn't want those things.

    It's not as if other teams around the league not named the Pacers are saying that they want to trade away their picks in return for guys with bloated contracts.
    I would take on a convicted serial killer if I was told he wouldn't shoot so much. Add a late second round pick and that trade is a steal.

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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneGranger33 View Post
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    I would take on a convicted serial killer if I was told he wouldn't shoot so much. Add a late second round pick and that trade is a steal.
    Wow......
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Wow......
    Yeah, looking back, I guess that was a bit extreme. I should have said suspected serial killer.

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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    I have to agree with a lot that Ike has talent, but we need him to be the future 5 spot and he just needs to be 4 or 5 inches taller to play the 5 spot. I agree he could be a nice trading piece, maybe add as a sweetener to get rid of a bad contract.

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