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Thread: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Someone in another thread asked where do we go from here. I realize most of you are ready to jump off a cliff or out of a window. But I see light at the end of the tunnel. So instead of bashing everyone connected to the Pacers, I will present a plan for where we go from here.

    OK, some of you might think Im crazy, but I think last nights game might very well be the game that turned the season around. (keep in mind that by turn the season around, I don't mean that the Pacers are going to go 30-15 the rest of the way, but rather they have found their voice {thanks Hillary})

    Why am I still positive about this team. Mainly because I see somethings that can be done with the players they have on the roster that will really help this team win games. And I suspect the coaching staff has learned these things also.

    And here they are.

    1) Diener needs to be the back up point guard. He needs to play 10-15 minutes per night. (Sure there might be the occassional game against bigger point guards where he won't be able to play too much) but he runs our offense very well - he can shoot, he is really a good passer - I mean really good, he has a feel for how to run an offense. Sure his defense isn't good, but what else is new on this team. We need Diener to be the backup point guard. Play Diener - I just hope his ankle is OK. He runs the offense so much better than Daniels or Owens and in fact he provides an offensive spark

    2) Say goodbye to Ike and David for quite some time. We are going small folks. Shawne is back in the rotation and he will get the minutes that Ike or David would have gotten. Expect to see Granger and Shawne play a lot of power forward. Trying to play a "big" running lineup hasn't worked.

    3) What do we do with JO. (I don't want that question to dominate this thread) But we need his defense for sure. Other than that I don't see that we need much else from him. He doesn't fit into this offense, right now I'm at a loss to know what to do with him. I almost want to say, "tell him to play like Jeff Foster on the offensive end" "Don't try to do too much"

    4) The Daniels experiment at point guard is over, thankfully. Yes his defense is OK there, but offensively, he struggles and the team comes to a standstill whenever he plays the point. He needs to be operating closer to the basket - it was unfair to him to ask him to play the point.

    5) Rush is our best perimeter defender. Who knew, but he is the best at keeping his man in front of him and still applying decent ball pressure.

    6) Play Foster more. Really all of you knew this was coming, in fact maybe I should just say that in everyone of my posts. But his defense on Amare last night should earn him a few votes for all defensive team - it was that good. (I think Clark said outstanding defense and Jeff Foster about 10 times last night.

    You probably think I am crazy, but I really see this as a turning point in our season. At least as far as this team becoming about as good as they can be. They still have a talent deficit against a lot of teams (If Nash had been healthy the Suns win by 8 points last night in regulation), they will still have bad shooting nights and yes their game is too dependant upon how well they are shooting. But I see a team that can and should come together
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 01-10-2008 at 09:34 AM.

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    Mr. Clutch granger33's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Nice read.

    Thats the positive side.

    But Negative side is the inconsistency from this team.

    Call me a fool but does anyone else think J.J Redick would be an awesome fit coming of the Indiana bench under O'Brien?

    I do to see light down the tunnel. But best case senario we will be 7th seed or 8th.

    AUSTRALIA'S NO.1 PACER FAN

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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    1. Stop living in denial and wondering how to "fix" this team and just accept reality - that this team doesn't have the talent level to ever be anything more than a 35 win team.

    2. Get rid of the crap and build towards the future with Danny, Shawne, high draft picks, and maybe some cap space.

    Pretty simple really.

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    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Foster's defense yesterday was as good as I have ever seen him play. And Amare got away with A LOT. He probably won't make an all-defensive team, but he should definitely get serious consideration. Just fantastic last night. I cannot stop raving about this guy.

    Also, if JO miraculously did us a huge favor, opted out of his contracted and re-signed for about 9-10mil (i.e. his true value) then I would be a lot more optimistic about this team's future.

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    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Kofi View Post
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    1. Stop living in denial and wondering how to "fix" this team and just accept reality - that this team doesn't have the talent level to ever be anything more than a 35 win team.

    2. Get rid of the crap and build towards the future with Danny, Shawne, high draft picks, and maybe some cap space.

    Pretty simple really.
    Is it?

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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom View Post
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    Is it?
    Considering that the biggest factor (the lottery picks) are given to the team, I'd say it is. Just draft well. No headcases, unathletic slugs, or players with poor work ethics.
    Last edited by Kofi; 01-10-2008 at 12:10 PM.

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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom View Post
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    Also, if JO miraculously did us a huge favor, opted out of his contracted and re-signed for about 9-10mil (i.e. his true value) then I would be a lot more optimistic about this team's future.

    JO opting out would be close to miraculous. Sometimes I think JO and Tins are really what
    is keeping this team from ultimately succeeding. No doubt this team needs a little different
    mix but it has some good pieces.
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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Quote Originally Posted by UncleBuck
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    Say goodbye to Ike and David for quite some time. We are going small folks. Shawne is back in the rotation and he will get the minutes that Ike or David would have gotten. Expect to see Granger and Shawne play a lot of power forward. Trying to play a "big" running lineup hasn't worked.

    What about fewer minutes for Murphy? It would seem to me going small (and quick) would mean more Ike (now that he's back) and Williams, and less Murphy and (as you say) Harrison.
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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    I certainly see the light at the end of the tunnel.....every time we
    lose. The more, the better. Bring on that mid-high Lottery pick !

    Lineup-wise, in my book, this is our best five in O'B's system.
    C-Foster, PF-Williams, SF-DG, SG-Duns, PG-Tins. And win or lose,
    as long as O'B isn't cheering on JT's occasional idiocy (ala last night),
    they're fun to watch.

    30 wins or less or bust !!!

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    J.O. To The T.O. Oneal07's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    I believe Diener should play more also. I heard last night he didn't play much cause he was a "liability" on defence. I mean, TJ Ford weighs 155 and is 6"1 and is a starting PG. If we're going to be good on offense. especially with our 2nd unit, Diener should play.

    The thing about Tinsley is that, when he plays he doesn't push the ball up the court fast enough. Last night was the first time I seen him do that in a long time.

    During all the losses, we allow the defence to set up, which should be how our offense run. We need to put more pressure on their defence
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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Harrison actually runs the floor pretty well for a 7 footer.

    I really like the idea of going small... hopefully we see danny and shawne at the 3 and 4 from now on.
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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    UB,

    Thanks for the post. I'm inclined to agree with you about the future of this team. While I don't believe that last night was any kind of a victory, and I'm still irate with O'Brien and Tinsley for what happened at the end of the game, I'd like to believe that we're starting to figure a few things out.

    I don't believe that J.O'B is a bad coach, and I don't believe that this team lacks talent. Sure were not as talented as the top-tier teams in the league, but there are probably 10-15 with whom I would not trade rosters. I'm as guilty as anybody about knee-jerk negative posts after terrible losses. Hopefully you're right about O'Brien learning from this loss and we'll see some of the same positives in the future. I certainly won't be one who ever roots for the Pacers to lose. Rebuilding is a long and painful process for most teams, and I'm not sure that the Pacers would survive it (in Indy that is). I think we'll stay the course with this roster, but we'll probably see some moderate to significant changes at the deadline or in the offseason.
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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    If Portland can recover with the players and contracts that they had we can to.

    I like Diener and Daniels together with Rush, Williams, and Foster. Not saying that is a starting lineup. But it causes alot of mismatches.

    So it appears that DH is not going to be resigned and Rush may.

    It is time to trade JO. Picks, defensive big, and cap should be the max that we get in return.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Quote Originally Posted by intridcold View Post
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    I like Diener and Daniels together with Rush, Williams, and Foster. Not saying that is a starting lineup. But it causes alot of mismatches.

    I really like that lineup also.

    I think the player most likely to be traded is Ike Diogu. He has a good contract, he has some talent, but he doesn't fit in to this system at all neither the offensive system nor the defensive system. Ike needs to be traded, and I have been one of his biggest supporters
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 01-10-2008 at 01:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I really like that lineup also.

    I think the player most likely to be trade is Ike Diogu. he has a good contract, he has some talent, but he doesn't fit in to this system at all neither the offensive system nor the defensive system. Ike needs to be traded, and I have been one of his biggest supporters
    I agree. I like Ike and think he will be a decent starting PF someday. If I were making a list of Pacers most likely to be traded, he'd be #1 with JO as #2, after that, I don't see us really looking to move anyone.
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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Quote Originally Posted by granger33 View Post
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    Call me a fool but does anyone else think J.J Redick would be an awesome fit coming of the Indiana bench under O'Brien?
    You're a fool.
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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    I didn't see the game last nite, (too cheap to buy a LP) but after reading PD for a while and looking at the box score it's clear to see this being a pivitol game as some of you are suggesting. Larry Bird said recently we need to get better @ the PF, C, and, yes, PG position. I think the more games we see like this, (or in my case, read about), it just adds more fuel to the fire for LB and Co. to make moves for us to get better. The way LB came across in the interview I'd bet the farm that something will happen before the trade deadline. We need to expect the worst and hope for the best.

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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Originally Posted by granger33
    Call me a fool . . .


    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd
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    You're a fool.

    Who didn't see that one coming?



    Anyway, UncleBuck, please explain why Ike doesn't fit on your plan. I know his numbers aren't good, but that is because the team doesn't fit well together and needs to be retooled. One could argue for building around him (and others). How come he doesn't fit in your retooling plan?
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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    Originally Posted by granger33
    Call me a fool . . .






    Who didn't see that one coming?



    Anyway, UncleBuck, please explain why Ike doesn't fit on your plan. I know his numbers aren't good, but that is because the team doesn't fit well together and needs to be retooled. One could argue for building around him (and others). How come he doesn't fit in your retooling plan?
    I know I'm not UB so excuse me for answering. Ike just doesn't seem that good or that talented (as far as what he has shown us).

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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    I really think that Ike is limited here as long as JO is here. Even if we trade JO we should get a solid defender that would still eat Ike's minutes.

    I say that Williams develops his interior game and we go with him being our future starting 4.

    Looking out there in NBA land only a few scenarios would work with a JO trade.

    I am posting my scenarios in the trade forum

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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Quote Originally Posted by pacerfreak View Post
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    I know I'm not UB so excuse me for answering. Ike just doesn't seem that good or that talented (as far as what he has shown us).

    Ok, I see that point of view.


    UncleBuck is making a different argument. He says that Ike has talent, but doesn't fit with the system. Granted that is evident. My question is, if the system has to change, why jettison a "talented" player rather than retool to make him fit better?
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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    2) Say goodbye to Ike and David for quite some time. We are going small folks. Shawne is back in the rotation and he will get the minutes that Ike or David would have gotten. Expect to see Granger and Shawne play a lot of power forward. Trying to play a "big" running lineup hasn't worked.

    3) What do we do with JO. (I don't want that question to dominate this thread) But we need his defense for sure. Other than that I don't see that we need much else from him. He doesn't fit into this offense, right now I'm at a loss to know what to do with him. I almost want to say, "tell him to play like Jeff Foster on the offensive end" "Don't try to do too much"
    2) Hoo-ray. Thats what I heard Obie say in the post game interview, and I think with this team you have to resign yourself to it. I hope its true. Slog JO ball doesn't work anymore. Not to mention, i hate it. Its boring and easy to defend, unless your Dwight Howard, Shaq (old school), or now Bynum (new school). The key is to play all out for 48 minutes on both ends, and not have any lapses. Not to mention that Shawne is our best athletic wing and best pure shooter, along with Rush surprisingly - you gotta play them and let them grow as players. I wonder if this ("going small") is a small "hint" that JO is going to be traded. Between Shawne and Danny, one of them can play PF in this offense. Ike im not sure about either.

    3) Somone mentioned in an thread a couple weeks ago to tell JO (if he stays with the Pacers that is) to play like Camby in Denver - forget about him in the offense, and just tell him to play defense and rebound the damn ball. No more dumpdowns - tell him to set high post picks like Jeff does and roll.

    Otherwise, face it, "REBUILD" time is upon us. The RETOOL'ing thing ain't happening. If your the Simons, you better realize this real soon, and get JO outta here ASAP (before the trade deadline).

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    Go Colts! Shade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Kofi View Post
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    1. Stop living in denial and wondering how to "fix" this team and just accept reality - that this team doesn't have the talent level to ever be anything more than a 35 win team.

    2. Get rid of the crap and build towards the future with Danny, Shawne, high draft picks, and maybe some cap space.

    Pretty simple really.
    Yup.

    We need to rebuild, folks. Keep Shawne and probably Danny and dump pretty much everyone else over the next couple years for draft picks, expiring contracts, and players with potential that are languishing on the bench elsewhere.

    In other words, follow the Portland model of rebuilding. If they could unload that entire roster of miscreants with big contracts, then so can we.

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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Quote Originally Posted by BoomBaby33 View Post
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    Slog JO ball doesn't work anymore. Not to mention, i hate it. Its boring and easy to defend, unless your Dwight Howard, Shaq (old school), or now Bynum (new school).
    Bynum doesn't play in a slog ball offense at all.

    It probably doesn't hurt that he has players like Kobe surrounding him, either.

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    Member OakMoses's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    Ok, I see that point of view.


    UncleBuck is making a different argument. He says that Ike has talent, but doesn't fit with the system. Granted that is evident. My question is, if the system has to change, why jettison a "talented" player rather than retool to make him fit better?
    I'll take a stab at it. I agree that Ike is talented, but here's why I think he should be traded.

    1.) Granger and Williams are the future at the 3/4 postions.
    2.) Ike cannot play the 5 spot regularly for quite a few reasons.
    3.) J.O'B cleary prefers to play Murphy, Foster, and JO over Ike.
    4.) Ike is young, talented, and has a cheap contract. This means his trade value is much higher than the players in front of him in the rotation.

    Personally, I think that Ike could play the 4 in this system reasonably well, but if it comes down to a choice between Ike and Shawne (which I think it does) it's not a hard decision.
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