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Thread: Bitter thoughts after the loss to the Suns

  1. #1
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Bitter thoughts after the loss to the Suns

    Well I just watched the game on tape delay and I am just jumping straight here without going over other posts so if I cover some ground that others have already said, please forgive me.

    Now with that in mind.

    I would like to hand out the dumb @ss award of the night, I'm tempted to say this really should go be dumb @ss of the mellinium, to....
















    Jim O'Brien.

    Yes that's right to our wonderfull head coach who in about one nights time has made me totally reconsider any positive things I have said or thought about him.

    B!tch and complain all you want about Jamaal Tinsley and believe me you would have to get in line behind me and some of the new made up swear words I uttered during the 4th and OT, but at the end of it all there is only one person to blame for that and he is over on the sidelines.

    If Larry Bird fired him right now and replaced him with Scott Skiles I don't think I would be offended.

    Yes, I know that is pretty drastic and once I cool down I will probably change my mind (maybe). But right now that is how p!ssed off I am about this loss.

    We had this game, period.

    If the Suns had come back and beat us while we were trying to run what was supposed to be our offense then I wouldn't utter a word. I would have just said, they are better than us and I was happy with the way we played.

    But litterally that OT and last few min. of the 4th quarter offended me so bad that I am really truely going to have to go back and think of something good to say.

    I don't care if it's Allen Iverson, Jermaine O'Neal, Michael Jordan, Ron Artest or even Dr. J, I hate with the passion of a white hot sun the type of ball we saw exhibited at the end of the game.

    The only thing missing was for there to be the guy with the mic running up and down the court with Jamaal yelling "Mel Mel in da house" or we might as well have been at Rucker park. However who needs the carnival barker when you have a head coach over on the sidelines playing pick up stix with his butt cheeks instead of coaching the game.

    Disgusting.

    I have not been this mad at a Pacers loss in years. In fact I don't know that I have ever been this mad at a Pacers loss.

    What makes me so mad is that O'Brien ruined a great game from the team overall by instructing the point guard to play star ball. Yes, that's right, he was instructing him to do that.

    If he wasn't instructing him to do that then why did he not pull him? That's right because he had no problem with it.

    Credit to the Suns they did improve the defense and increased the intensity.

    However while I take nothing away from them they had accomplises in crime tonight on our bench.

    There are no moral victory's, period.

    If we are playing for moral victory's then by God I don't want to see a Pacer on the floor who has been in the NBA for more than 4 years because we better be seeing what we have.

    But no, O'Brien was actually trying to win that game.

    Can you believe that, that was actually an attempt to win the game.

    I'm not sure right now that I wouldn't have preferred Hick's or U.B. or Gnome to be making the calls in the 4th compared to what I got.

    I know for damn sure that I would have preffered Tbird to take over about mid way through the 4th.

    Sorry folks I always try and give us something positive, and frankly if it wasn't for the way we ended the game I would have been on here singing the praises of (in no particular order) Jeff Foster, Troy Murphy, Shawne Williams, Danny Granger, Travis Diener & Kareem Rush.

    However Jim O'Briens coaching took whatever joy I was having & believe me I was actually enjoying that game and threw it all away.

    BTW, to the Jamaal bandwagon out there. I am not mad at your boy at all. Oh believe me at first I cursed and cursed and cursed some more at him but as time went on it became abundantly clear to me that the coach was encouraging this crap.

    So to me you can't be mad when you throw a fox into a chicken coop and he goes fox on you.

    Telling Jamaal to play selfish one on one playground rucker park crap is the problem, not that Jamaal did it.

    I'm going away now to cool out and I may try and give up something else later.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  2. #2
    '12 PD Sunshiner awardee Kemo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bitter thoughts after the loss to the Suns

    post of the new year right here ..

    I agree with everything you said man... its digusting.. and JOB done ruined it when he started saying about a month ago that JT was our "quarterback" and yadda yadda blah blah..

    just feeding JT's already inflated ego..

    Bird done the EXACT same thing with J.O.. the last year Reggie was here... telllin JO how it was "his" team .. and it totally screwed alot of things up..
    1st all JO should never have been told he was their number 1 player and it was his team.. while Reggie was still here in uniform.... I think that it pissed Miller off a bit honestly... because before that point in time.. Miller had been talking of playing a few more years.. then that was said.. and he happens to say the hell with it and retire at the end of season...

    ya im pretty disgusted too

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Bitter thoughts after the loss to the Suns

    Quote Originally Posted by Kemo View Post
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    Bird done the EXACT same thing with J.O.. the last year Reggie was here... telllin JO how it was "his" team .. and it totally screwed alot of things up..
    I agree it screwed up a lot of things, but it was Reggie himself that started that it's JO's team. Reggie even deferred to JO when he shouldn't have and that's what really killed us.

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    Member BruceLeeroy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bitter thoughts after the loss to the Suns

    I don't think he condones a 33% shooter to shoot every time down the floor in the most crucial part of a game. He's trying eat clock and spread the floor to let JT create for himeself or his teamates. It's not a bad idea in theory but you need a PG with a brain to make good decisions then you need your teamates to trust that if they continue to work that PG will pass them the ball. Neither of those are possible when JT is your point guard and feels he can do whatever he wants.

    Obviously Obie's to blame cause all he had to do was pull Tinsley or set him straight and he did neither, but I wouldn't blame him for his game plan. I'd blame him for not showing any guts.

    Mal had it right in the post game thread. He'll address it tommorow during film session and try to teach Jamaal again, but I highly doubt it gets through.

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    The light, not the lie. kester99's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bitter thoughts after the loss to the Suns

    Quote Originally Posted by BruceLeeroy View Post
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    ...Mal had it right in the post game thread. He'll address it tommorow during film session and try to teach Jamaal again, but I highly doubt it gets through.
    The last couple of times JT has totally dominated the FGA stats (vs MIA, 1st half, 2nd game; vs ATL, 2nd game) he followed with games of 3 FGAs and 8 FGAs. Maybe an attempt to take the lesson to heart?
    [~]) ... Cheers! Go Pacers!

  6. #6
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bitter thoughts after the loss to the Suns

    It's been a long time since I was so upset at a loss myself. And my immediate thoughts were to WHAT was JOB going to do about the JT show. I kept waiting for an a$$ chewing or a seat on the bench for JT (even if only for a possession or two). But neither happened. Instead, we got to see some of the most selfish basketball that has been seen in the NBA in a long time.

    JT wasn't 'hot'. We weren't riding the hot hand. I have no idea what we were doing. But I blame both JOB and Tinsley for that pathetic display of basketball we endured. I could've accepted a loss if it had happened under normal circumstances, but not one like this.

    JT should be smart enough NOT to do that... and of course the coach should have enough balls not to allow him to do that. I'm not giving either a pass and I'm not giving JT a pass just because the coach did. Lord knows, JT didn't give anyone a pass either to close this game out!

    And speaking of stupid, knowing the general opinion of this team and Tinsley in general, to allow that display to continue unchecked was a recipe for fans caring even less about JT or this team. Totally stupid.

    And lastly... Chemistry. What a way to destroy any budding team chemistry and reinforce several doubts about Tinsley ever truly being the "answer" for this team.

    Disgusting!!!!!

    -Bball
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    Default Re: Bitter thoughts after the loss to the Suns

    Oh Dear God!! Thanks Peck...just saved me a long time typing by saying everything I was thinking. The only other angry thought I had was right before Tinsley started shooting everying Freaking time, we took about 13 3pt shots in a row and MISSED THEM all.

    WE STOPPED DOING EVERYTHING THAT GOT US THE LEAD. EVERYTHING!!! Why coaches continue to f-up perfectly good games is beyond my comprehension. My phone buzzes at each quarter with a score and after knowing we were ahead at half time....I KNEW when the 5th buzz came we somehow f-'d this game up and lost in overtime!!

    From the 4 minute mark in regulation until the end of overtime.....was the most disgusting basketball I've ever seen! And I was a fan back in the Dick Versace days.

    Amybody got a pail so I can go throw up in it!

    Water

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    Default Re: Bitter thoughts after the loss to the Suns

    There's nothing to be bitter about. We're playing our way back into Eric Gordon territory. He, Danny, and Shawne (who was amazing tonight) will help lead us back to contendership. Throw in another lottery pick or two, and a nice FA signing, and this sub-mediocre pile of crap we call a team will be a distant memory.
    Last edited by Kofi; 01-10-2008 at 05:39 AM.

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    Default Re: Bitter thoughts after the loss to the Suns

    We've blown crazy leads all year. That's okay, because this style is supposed to sell more tickets.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Bitter thoughts after the loss to the Suns

    Jamal Tinsley is killing this team.....
    8-26 from the floor...0-7 threes....
    Dunleavy shoots 9 times????
    Im getting sick of watching this garbage........
    I predicted 30 wins before the season and Im not going to be off
    by much if they dont change the offense .....

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    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bitter thoughts after the loss to the Suns

    I'm just wondering, where do we go from here?

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    Tree People to the Core! indygeezer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bitter thoughts after the loss to the Suns

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom View Post
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    I'm just wondering, where do we go from here?
    How about if we pick up a legit BU PG so the coach COULD bench JT and still have a chance of winning. Remember, at this point Deiner was in the lockerroom being X-rayed and we still HAD a chance to win. But no real legit PG was available to help. Perhaps Quis for a play or two. But I wonder if JOB was getting his 1st real look at Mel Mel the Abuser and kept thinking "well, he'll get it right next time down the floor....he'll realize what he's doing".

    No?
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  13. #13
    Get well PG! QuickRelease's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bitter thoughts after the loss to the Suns

    I, for one, didn't mind Jamaal's aggressiveness. What I didn't like is the fact that we became very guardable when he showed he wasn't giving it up. I think if we'd have mixed it up just a little, we would have pulled that game out. The thing I hated was the 4th qtr stretch of 3-point chucking, and the fact that JOB pulled Shawne, when he was our hottest player. Hopefully that was an issue of SW being tired; although, I don't recall Shawne looking all that exhausted, to the point where he couldn't go the last 5 min.

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    International Counter bellisimo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bitter thoughts after the loss to the Suns

    this was the worst execution the Pacers have done since the Game 7 loss to the Bulls. *that one stings too much for me*

    Have to agree with what Peck has mentioned - if this is how we are planning on playing through the season, i'd be better off keeping the games off...my stomach can't handle this disgust.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Bitter thoughts after the loss to the Suns

    I know the answer to this...

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom View Post
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    I'm just wondering, where do we go from here?


    From here we go to Sacramento, to play the Kings on Saturday.


    Glad I could help.
    Last edited by Putnam; 01-10-2008 at 08:19 AM.
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  16. #16
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bitter thoughts after the loss to the Suns

    Perhaps it helps to sleep for 6 hours between the time the game ends and the time I responded in this thread.

    I think it is important to put things in perspective and not just look at the last couple of minutes of the 4th and OT in a vacuum. So that is what I will attempt to do.

    Bare with me here, this is all from memory (I watched the game live and only once). Let me first say that the Pacers basically ran two different plays in the OT and the last 4 minutes of regulations. One was a JT post up, the other once was a pass to the big guy (Jeff) at the elbow, and then JT and a wing player would cross cut and jeff would give the ball to the open guy. Both plays were working. Pacers got several wide open good looks from 3 late in regulation. Granger missed two really good looks, and there were a couple of other really good looks that were missed. If they had hit one of those threes, the pacers win the game.

    Those two plays were also run in the OT. Yes JT took all the shots - but he did also hit a few of those.

    Am I happy that JT took all the shots - no, but no one else was hitting anything. The only real complaint I have with Jim is that Williams didn't come back in at the end of regulation. He had 5 fouls and he was dead tired when he was taken out, but he should have been in the game near the end.

    Yes it was a tough loss, and yes without Nash, the pacers should have won the game. But I refuse to let the very end ruin the rest of the game and things that I believe can be used in future games. More on that in a little bit
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 01-10-2008 at 08:38 AM.

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    Default Re: Bitter thoughts after the loss to the Suns

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom View Post
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    I'm just wondering, where do we go from here?
    3 options (maybe roll them into one)

    1. Trade for Hibachi!
    2. For 1,476,753rd time, TRADE JO and TINS!I know this (trading JO and Tins) isn't the easiest thing to do, but something has to be done!
    3. Make a decision, either rebuild completely or remain in mediocrity for years. Maybe it costs us Danny or Ike.

    Actually, I could retract from trading Tins a bit, but JO must go. After all, Obie gave Tins the keys to the Pinto to try to win it by himself in OT (he took 10 of our 11 shots, and I counted 2 passes he made in OT), even though he ran the up tempo offense during the first 3.5 quarters very well.

    Ongoing stat of the year: With JO we are 9-19, without him we are 5-2 (should have been 6-1, but Tins felt like going 1 on 5 last night in OT).

  18. #18
    Fear my small avatar Gyron's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bitter thoughts after the loss to the Suns

    I was at the Charlotte Bobcats versus pacers game on New years eve. And I see a very strong similarity to the end of this game. In that game we controlled the game pretty well, all the way to about half way through the 4th quarter and in overtime. What changed? Well we changed the offense completely when Charlotte made their surge and changed from what was working. We went to slog ball with Jermaine who like tinsley last night, DID NOT have a hot hand, as a matter of fact he could hit a damn shot. He had not played well most of the game, but for some reason we changed from everything that was working and eventually losing in overtime.

    What is it about the close games that JOB decides to go away from what is working and let one of the players jump in and play selfish ball?

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    Default Re: Bitter thoughts after the loss to the Suns

    Quote Originally Posted by Kemo View Post
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    Bird done the EXACT same thing with J.O.. the last year Reggie was here... telllin JO how it was "his" team .. and it totally screwed alot of things up..
    1st all JO should never have been told he was their number 1 player and it was his team.. while Reggie was still here in uniform.... I think that it pissed Miller off a bit honestly... because before that point in time.. Miller had been talking of playing a few more years.. then that was said.. and he happens to say the hell with it and retire at the end of season...
    That's not how it happened at all.

    REGGIE was the one talking up JO being "the man" since the end of the 2001 playoff series with Philadelphia. Reggie retired four years later in 2005 for a combination of wanting to leave while he could still compete as a starter and IMO because that year the Brawl et al along with that roster in general wore him out. Now that last part is speculation by me, but the first part is not.

  20. #20
    Member LoneGranger33's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bitter thoughts after the loss to the Suns

    Peck is like the more articulate, more rational version of myself...

  21. #21

    Default Re: Bitter thoughts after the loss to the Suns

    Okay, I'll buy the idea that JOB was trying to eat up the shot/game clock by having Tinsley go iso and post-up his defender, BUT that DOESN'T excuse him taking 3-pt shots near the end of regulation, and it certainly doesn't excuse him from taking EVERY SHOT in OT. Granger, Dunleavy and even Murphy to a degree were playing well. Granted, we lost some of our flexability when Rush, Deiner, Williams and Foster all sat out due to injuries or fouling out, but there were still at least TWO gamers out there besides Tinsley. Moreover, if he was so tired the worse thing you do is allow him to force his shot or force the effort to post-up. In such situations what you need is a player who will attack the basket. Bring in Owens if you had to and instruct him and EVEYRONE ELSE to drive the lanes and get to the foul line.

    No matter how one tries to rationalize it, there's just no excuse for the poor decision making down the stretch when you were leading w/under 4 minutes remaining.

    Kester99, you know my 3-minute end-game rule. How 'bout repeating it to the board so everybody gets educated on how NOT to blow a game when you're still in it!!!

  22. #22

    Default Re: Bitter thoughts after the loss to the Suns

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer View Post
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    How about if we pick up a legit BU PG so the coach COULD bench JT and still have a chance of winning. Remember, at this point Deiner was in the lockerroom being X-rayed and we still HAD a chance to win. But no real legit PG was available to help. Perhaps Quis for a play or two. But I wonder if JOB was getting his 1st real look at Mel Mel the Abuser and kept thinking "well, he'll get it right next time down the floor....he'll realize what he's doing".

    No?
    But that's just it, Geez. We still had Owens. And that's why I'm not buying fully into this "JOB was trying to slow the game down" argument. I was being sarcastic in my last post on the matter, but the truth is Owens was still available and he had fresh legs!! He's more of a half-court PG anyway (okay, so he's really a SG, but he's not that bad at the Point). Problem in going with him might have been he's not known to render very many assists, BUT he's more consistent from long range and he would have driven HARD to the lanes.

    So, again, there's absolutely NO EXCUSE for what happened last night. NONE...no matter how folks try to justify it.

  23. #23
    Member naptownmenace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bitter thoughts after the loss to the Suns

    What I don't for the life of all that is good understand is why Jamal was allowed to shoot 26 times while Dunleavy, who was having a solid shooting night, was only allowed 9 shots?

    I'm totally disgusted in Coach O'Brien's judgment in the last 3 games. Granger, Dunleavy, and Shawne was shooting well but from the last 56 seconds on none of them were even looked at by Tinsley. After Jamal shot the ball 4 straight times without even attempting to look to pass early in the overtime I was praying for Andre Owens to be put into the game.

    I'm also disgusted in the fluffy soft coverage of Mike Wells and Conrad Brunner. Neither articles in the Star or on Pacers.com even mentioned that Tinsley shot 8-26 or that he took every shot except one in OT. They both tried to put a completely positive spin on the game. I'm actually hoping for an article from just to breathe some levity on the Pacers poor play and coaching as of late. Thankfully, Clark Kellogg had the balls to question Jamal's shot selection and state that he the Pacers needed him to be more of a "point guard" in OT.

    I haven't been that disappointed in a long time. Probably since the Pacers lost to the Hawks in the first round of the playoffs in 96.
    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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  24. #24
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bitter thoughts after the loss to the Suns

    Diener hurt, and neither great options.

    Big reason Rick was fired was for not getting along with Tins and making him better. Many people right here said that Rick was WRONG to try and control Tins, that Tins needed to be freed up to be himself.

    Tins hated that Rick might dare control his style of play and ask him to run a pre-designed set, even if it was well thought out and geared toward attacking the current opponent or making the most of the talent the team had.

    So this just gets me more and more bitter to be honest.


    I will add this however, I do see some good structure to the defense. They have talent issues there, but what they are trying to do will look pretty good in the hands of other players.

    Do NOT make the same mistake twice, don't throw out another pretty good coach in terms of strategy because he couldn't reach all of this roster or couldn't make his system work perfectly with this roster.

    As much as I like Rick as a coach, I certainly don't hate what I've seen from JOB so far. Just fix the REAL PROBLEM, the roster. The same thing I was saying before Rick was dumped.



    Reggie-JO - Reggie was correct to say that too. JO was the mack at that point, he drew fouls like a machine, rebounded aggressively and was a more threatening options than Reggie was becoming.

    I'm sick of this stupid love affair some fans have with Reggie's final year. As a fan myself I loved seeing him, sure, but the dude was a HORRIBLE 3pt chucker that final season. JACKSON shot far better than Reggie that year, but Reggie took the most shots.

    If it's any other name on the uniform shooting 4-5 3pt shots per game at a 32% rate fans get irate with the player.

    So it was becoming JO's team. Then JO got hurt a bunch and now this version would get destroyed by the JO of just 3-4 years ago. Reggie wouldn't call it JO's team at this point.

  25. #25
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bitter thoughts after the loss to the Suns

    Neither articles in the Star or on Pacers.com even mentioned that Tinsley shot 8-26 or that he took every shot except one in OT.
    I'll say this, while they were kid gloves too, Denari and Clark were "noticing" this issue during the game. It felt like if they were just hanging out with you that they would have been going off, but for the Pacers they played it soft.


    Buck, he wasn't hitting them. One score was a Troy tip-in. And on all of those plays he didn't even look for a teammate, he clearly went full-on Mel Mel. Peck is right on ripping this, it was very forced offense, no natural flow to it at all, no real touches for teammates. Even his "well the clock was running out" long 3 was with 3 seconds left. He didn't even look to step in closer or anything. It wasn't a Jack moment of early in the clock, but considering where the shot was from it wasn't as smart as "clock running out" implies.

    You are right that earlier he'd gone to the post effectively for some assists. But then it went to his head like it always seems to...or worse yet JOB told him to do this.

    I'm of the opinion that JOB ripped on Tins for this back in the locker room.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 01-10-2008 at 12:14 PM.

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