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Thread: Pacers/Suns Post Game 37: So close, yet so far

  1. #51
    Member BruceLeeroy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Post Game 37: So close, yet so far

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    I can only assume one of the following:

    1) Jim O'Brien is a bad in-game coach

    2) While he doesn't think it was the best idea for Tinsley to do what he did, he made the promise to let them have the offense while he has the defense, and to stick to that he'll simply point out in film session and in practice the error of Tinsley's ways (in a constructive way) to teach him to make better decisions on his own.

    I can believe 1, but I'm going with 2.
    I'd say you probably got it right. The thing is this has happened several times this year. JT either doesn't get it or doesn't care. He has no excuse for tonight because other players were playing well. I realize Obie probably made some of those ISO calls but that doesn't mean he wants JT to take the shot every time down. He calls it to eat some clock and let his best playmaker make plays. The more I think about it the more I blame JT for this one.

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    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Post Game 37: So close, yet so far

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneGranger33 View Post
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    Everyone is criticizing O'Brien now, but I was doing it before it was cool. I believe I led the charge against Murphy too.



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  3. #53
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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Post Game 37: So close, yet so far

    just saw the game on tape - damn!
    after all those time outs we took - we still went with the JT Ball...seriously was that the best play that JOB could draw in the huddle?
    I understand and appreciate what Mal has mentioned - but surely JOB was not drawing defensive schemes when we had the ball and were in need of a score...right?!?

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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Post Game 37: So close, yet so far

    JOB is handing Tins with kid gloves because he doesn't want to deal with the old Tins, sulking on the bench and being an being a complete a$$.

  5. #55

    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Post Game 37: So close, yet so far

    Did everyone see the same game I did?

    What exactly were our options besides Tins at the end?

    We did not score in the 4th quarter. No one cut, we took like 13-15 3's and couldn't hit anything. Tins was the only one who seemed to want a shot. I'm sorry, but if guys would've gotten open, or we could've bought a bucket at the end, I'm guessing Tins would've passed the ball.

    The start of OT, Tin's had a it going, and hit a couple of baskets. He kept trying and they didn't fall. Besides the very end, most were decent shots, and ones that he can frequently hit.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Post Game 37: So close, yet so far

    Quote Originally Posted by Phildog View Post
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    Did everyone see the same game I did?

    What exactly were our options besides Tins at the end?

    We did not score in the 4th quarter. No one cut, we took like 13-15 3's and couldn't hit anything. Tins was the only one who seemed to want a shot. I'm sorry, but if guys would've gotten open, or we could've bought a bucket at the end, I'm guessing Tins would've passed the ball.

    The start of OT, Tin's had a it going, and hit a couple of baskets. He kept trying and they didn't fall. Besides the very end, most were decent shots, and ones that he can frequently hit.
    apparently you saw another game.
    All I saw was JT taking over the offense and the team members realizing that it was going to be a show of "MEL MEL" and decided it wasn't worth to cut/etc cause JT was not looking to dish the ball out.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Post Game 37: So close, yet so far

    Quote Originally Posted by Phildog View Post
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    What exactly were our options besides Tins at the end?

    The start of OT, Tin's had a it going, and hit a couple of baskets. He kept trying and they didn't fall. Besides the very end, most were decent shots, and ones that he can frequently hit.
    Tins went 4-14 during the Pacers last 16 shots. He was being guarded largely by Shawn Marion, a very good defender. 4-14 is roughly 28%. 28% is about what you'd expect a bad shooter (35% for the season) to shoot when being guarded by a good defender.

    Our other options were everybody on the floor but Tins. At the end of regulation we had Rush, Dunleavy, and Granger on the floor. They are all much better shooters than Tins. I don't care if they're standing still.

    Things could have been done differently. Shawne Williams was hot and would have been fresh if O'Brien would have put him in the game. Andre Owens could have been put in for Tins. This would force the good shooters to shoot. Marquis Daniels could have been allowed to be a creator.

    This loss falls entirely on the shoulders of O'Brien and Tinsley. The blame lies nowhere else.

    Losing a game where you're up by 16 in the second half is a failure, no matter how hard you play.
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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Post Game 37: So close, yet so far

    Quote Originally Posted by bellisimo View Post
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    apparently you saw another game.
    All I saw was JT taking over the offense and the team members realizing that it was going to be a show of "MEL MEL" and decided it wasn't worth to cut/etc cause JT was not looking to dish the ball out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Perhaps it helps to sleep for 6 hours between the time the game ends and the time I responded in this thread.

    I think it is important to put things in perspective and not just look at the last couple of minutes of the 4th and OT in a vacuum. So that is what I will attempt to do.

    Bare with me here, this is all from memory (I watched the game live and only once). Let me first say that the Pacers basically ran two different plays in the OT and the last 4 minutes of regulations. One was a JT post up, the other once was a pass to the big guy (Jeff) at the elbow, and then JT and a wing player would cross cut and jeff would give the ball to the open guy. Both plays were working. Pacers got several wide open good looks from 3 late in regulation. Granger missed two really good looks, and there were a couple of other really good looks that were missed. If they had hit one of those threes, the pacers win the game.

    Those two plays were also run in the OT. Yes JT took all the shots - but he did also hit a few of those.

    Am I happy that JT took all the shots - no, but no one else was hitting anything. The only real complaint I have with Jim is that Williams didn't come back in at the end of regulation. He had 5 fouls and he was dead tired when he was taken out, but he should have been in the game near the end.

    Yes it was a tough loss, and yes without Nash, the pacers should have won the game. But I refuse to let the very end ruin the rest of the game and things that I believe can be used in future games. More on that in a little bit
    Apparently UB saw the same thing I did.

    Too many knee jerks going on after this one.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Post Game 37: So close, yet so far

    Quote Originally Posted by odeez View Post
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    Nope.

    TINS = poor decisions down the stretch, we have other shooters on this team.

    The Isolation with Tinsley was working for a while. After when Dunleavy I think, missed the wide open 3, Tins said **** it and started to hogg the ball.

    we should have won the game, cause Amare turned the ball over TRAVELLED, but it wasn't even called.

    If we can play how we played last night, this team is so much better. I'm telling you, Diener and Graham need to play more. And Shawne proves why he should be getting playing time.

    I prayed that we won the game, but I seen the loss coming. We should have won
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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Post Game 37: So close, yet so far

    Quote Originally Posted by Phildog View Post
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    Apparently UB saw the same thing I did.

    Too many knee jerks going on after this one.
    Not aggreeing with you = knee jerk?

    I DISAGREE!!!




    Seriously though, Mike took 9 shots and hit 6, Danny took 18 shots and hit 9, Williams took 12 shots and hit 9. Those are good percentages. Why didn't we set screens for these guys after Tins started throwing clankers around? I don't get it. And Tins actually played pretty well the first 3 quarters, but that 4th quarter and OT... wow... .

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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Post Game 37: So close, yet so far

    uhmm did Danny Granger foul out or did Tinsley just make sure the Mafia stays happy with him? Sometimes I think Tinsley gets paid to lose games in the stretch. Seriously! He plays great almost all the way until it's crunch time and he tosses an ill-advised 3 or forces it down the lane only to shoot it short or be blocked.

  12. #62
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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Post Game 37: So close, yet so far

    Quote Originally Posted by Phildog View Post
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    Did everyone see the same game I did?

    What exactly were our options besides Tins at the end?

    We did not score in the 4th quarter. No one cut, we took like 13-15 3's and couldn't hit anything. Tins was the only one who seemed to want a shot. I'm sorry, but if guys would've gotten open, or we could've bought a bucket at the end, I'm guessing Tins would've passed the ball.

    The start of OT, Tin's had a it going, and hit a couple of baskets. He kept trying and they didn't fall. Besides the very end, most were decent shots, and ones that he can frequently hit.
    Although all of what I am about to post is all speculation ( since I could not watch the game but only listen to it ) and could be viewed as shifting blame away from Tinsley, I mostly agree with you. However, I don't think that he can't escape any blame for this loss. Tinsley could have tried to do more to get the rest of the team involved ( especially when Marion was defending him ).

    I really wonder if someone ( either JO'B, Tinsley or the both of them ) decided that it would be best for Tinsley to try to take the rest of the shots...something that we have seen him do before in previous games.

    Below is the Pacers Play-By-Play towards the end of the 4th QTR:

    5:31 Danny Granger makes 24-foot three point jumper (Jamaal Tinsley assists) / 111-105
    4:46 Danny Granger misses 25-foot three point jumper / 111-107
    4:43 Mike Dunleavy misses tip shot / 111-107
    4:18 Jamaal Tinsley misses 26-foot three point jumper / 111-108
    4:05 Danny Granger misses 26-foot three point jumper / 111-108
    3:47 Troy Murphy misses 26-foot three point jumper / 111-108
    3:15 Kareem Rush misses 24-foot three point jumper / 111-108
    2:53 Mike Dunleavy misses 26-foot three point jumper / 111-110
    2:45 Jamaal Tinsley misses 28-foot three point jumper / 111-110
    2:27 Danny Granger misses 9-foot jumper / 111-110
    2:05 Jamaal Tinsley misses free throw 1 of 2 / 111-110

    2:05 Jamaal Tinsley makes free throw 2 of 2 / 112-110

    After the 5:31 minute mark in the 4th QTR ( this was after Granger and Shawne went on a scoring frenzy to put us up 111-105 ), Granger/Murphy/Rush/Dunleavy went ice cold for 3:30 seconds until the 2:05 minute mark when Tinsley finally made a FT shot.

    Although Tinsley, Dunleavy and Granger played the most minutes up to that point....it's entirely possible that Granger and Dunleavy "simply ran out of gas" at that point and were settling for the easy 3pt attempts instead of trying to move around to get closer and drive to the basket to draw fouls. Keep in mind that it's not easy to keep up the tempo that the Pacers run....I'm guessing that the tempo is even worse when you have to do the same on the defensive end against a quicker team like the Suns. Something similar could be said of Rush and Murphy....both streaky shooters. At that point of the game they simply went cold. However, this isn't surprising since the Suns had a very solid defensive lineup of Barbosa, Banks, Bell, Marion and Stoudamire.

    I checked and it looks like Tinsley only took 7 FGA until the start of the 4th QTR. It's conceivable that by the 4th QTR, Tinsley had more "gas left in the tank" because all he was doing was "directing traffic and passing the ball" as opposed to taking shots and therefore expending more energy ( which Dunleavy and Granger were doing all game long ).

    I'm just saying that there can be a small ( but valid ) argument made that Tinsley had not choice but to take over simply because no one else was capable of making or taking a shot. I shift the majority of the blame over to JO'B for not recognizing this and pulling anybody outside of Tinsley out of the lineup and putting in Marquis in earlier ( or even Ike ) to try to get some "fresh legs" out there. As Mal alluded to.....JO'B may simply be a bad in-game coach and we are seeing the end-result here.
    Last edited by CableKC; 01-10-2008 at 02:33 PM.
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