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Thread: Well... Not impressed.. Random thoughts

  1. #1
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Well... Not impressed.. Random thoughts

    Due to a busy Nov-Dec I've not had a chance to catch many games, or catch them in their entirety anyway. This also isn't helped by the sprinkling of UNtelevised games.

    BUT that said-

    When I have watched, and tonight was no exception, the offense doesn't look like an offense at all. I don't see a lot of screening going on. There's usually some motion but it looks helter skelter and many shots just seem to come when one of the guys decides it's time to take a shot (or so it appears). It's certainly not a smart motion game that I'm seeing. How about making the defense really work and fight thru screens?

    I don't see any sharpness in the cuts. None.

    Worse, some (many?) of the barrage of 3's come at inopportune times... Nothing like a momentum killing wasted possession leading to a long rebound and easy basket the other way.

    I think JO just might be the slowest player on the court in most games and there's no crispness to his movement at all.

    As most of you know, I've grown fairly unimpressed with JO over the years to the point I think it's best for parties to move on. For a player that is paid what he is paid, the return on the payment is WAY low.

    I'm also less than impressed with the defense I've seen. Offense will come and go... especially when you play it bad like we're known to do with quick 3's and hurried looks (and JO's patented turnaround clanker too)... but defense should be a constant. Our defense appears mainly to be constantly bad. Our best hope is that our shots fall early and the other team quits. Anytime the other team has some heart and hangs in there (even when down) our willy nilly offense will go cold, and our defense will let them back in the game.

    And for another knock on JO... I don't see this good or great defense some of you say he brings. Yeah, sometimes he blocks a shot. I've never considered shot blocking to be the only sign of good defense. JO's man usually has his way in the games that I've seen. JO might swat away a penetrating guard's shot but his own man's game doesn't seem that swayed by JO.

    I feel the same way about JO as some of you do about Murphy. ...Only difference being I'm trying to still give Murphy the benefit of the doubt. JO has used his up. But it's getting harder by the minute to give Murphy much more slack.

    I'm not seeing any coming together with this team either. I think JOB is blowing smoke when he's talking about his belief in them finishing strong. This team isn't made to finish strong because it's so badly put together that 'chemistry' will always be a problem.

    I realize Tinsley is out now (not that he'll help the defense) but we shouldn't have to rely on an unreliable player in the first place. Tinsley is unreliable on 2 counts:
    Injury Prone
    Mentally/Attitude

    You just can't trust that he can keep either one of those in check.

    As for what to do about all this? I haven't got the foggiest idea. Most of this stuff has been piling up for years. Other teams cut their losses and move on instead of letting this stuff fester until something HAS to be done (then it's a rushed, half-a$$, panic move).

    I hope Bynum was never actually offered for JO, and I hope we did try and trade JO for Bynum and LA rejected it.

    It's getting to a point that the best thing JO can bring to this team is an offer not to take his option. But that doesn't mean that getting rid of JO fixes anything immediately... it just opens the door to a process where we can start fixing things.

    -Bball
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Well... Not impressed.. Random thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    It's getting to a point that the best thing JO can bring to this team is an offer not to take his option. But that doesn't mean that getting rid of JO fixes anything immediately... it just opens the door to a process where we can start fixing things.
    I feel the exact same way.

    I'd love to see more major changes with this team but man I defiantly will not bet on any anytime soon. That's for sure.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Well... Not impressed.. Random thoughts

    JO's man to man defense has never been stellar, it's his help defense that makes him somewhat of an anchor inside. Too bad he had Murphy next to him most of the time, and because of that he had to play D on Bynum, and he was pretty much slaughtered by the young guy.

    Jo only took jumpshots on the other end, no posting up and driving it to the hoop. Even Kwame Brown had more success with his moves.

    I think JO wasn't really bad tonight, but the team seemed to play better when he was out.

    So yes I would go for that Odom/Kwame/Critt package at this point.
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    Default Re: Well... Not impressed.. Random thoughts

    I posted this in the post game thread but I think Oneal/Harrison for Odom/Crittendon/Brown could be a good trade for both teams. LA is looking very good and getting some real muscle to pair with Bynum in the frontcourt might be just what they need to get over the hump in the west.

    Meanwhile we get a nice PG prospect (he had an immpressive showing a few nights ago against phily) and lots of expiring contracts. Brown expires and Odom expires next year, gives time to evaluate to see if we would want to keep him. Let Crittenden get some PT behind Jammal and when crit looks ready trade Jammal and see what we can get. If Jammal continues playing like he has been he might have nice trade value.
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    Default Re: Well... Not impressed.. Random thoughts

    Stay the course....1,000 points of light......

    JO's trade value is tumbling. I can't see any team still offering what was rumored to be on the table over the summer.

    There's a whole lot wrong with this team and it starts at the top.

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    Default Re: Well... Not impressed.. Random thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    And for another knock on JO... I don't see this good or great defense some of you say he brings. Yeah, sometimes he blocks a shot. I've never considered shot blocking to be the only sign of good defense. JO's man usually has his way in the games that I've seen. JO might swat away a penetrating guard's shot but his own man's game doesn't seem that swayed by JO.
    I haven't seen any games this season....so I can't really comment too much on his defense....but the only part that you left out was that he's still pretty good at drawing offensive fouls....the only part of his defensive game that I think he is still good at. But since I am of the belief that his offensive game has been affected by his willingness to take too much abuse and contact in the paint.....I too think that this part of his defensive game will begin to fade.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    As for what to do about all this? I haven't got the foggiest idea. Most of this stuff has been piling up for years. Other teams cut their losses and move on instead of letting this stuff fester until something HAS to be done (then it's a rushed, half-a$$, panic move).

    I hope Bynum was never actually offered for JO, and I hope we did try and trade JO for Bynum and LA rejected it.

    It's getting to a point that the best thing JO can bring to this team is an offer not to take his option. But that doesn't mean that getting rid of JO fixes anything immediately... it just opens the door to a process where we can start fixing things.

    -Bball
    Easy......stop fooling ourselves into believing that we should compete for a Playoff spot ( and likely 4-5 game exit in the 1st round ) and start the rebuilding process.....not continue to retool....and we all know where that hast to start.

    It may mean that we have to sell JONeal at a lower price....but honestly....I've seen enough of this team and the way that this offense has to run to know that with the given lineup that we have.....it requires ALOT of things to fall into place ( something that we all knew from the beginning of the season ) in order for us to even become competitive. I just don't think that we have the ability to "fire on all cylinders" for an entire season in order for JO'Bs system to work.

    Also.....I don't think that there is too much benefit in continuing to showcase the talents of a Big Man in an offense that only highlights his weaknesses. I don't want to undervalue whatever trade value that JONeal has...but I also think that it's very possible to overvalue what his value it. This doesn't mean that we should move him for anything....I'm just hoping that his trade value isn't that low that we can't get a future draft pick, Expiring Contract and some player that would fit our needs.
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    Default Re: Well... Not impressed.. Random thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Due to a busy Nov-Dec I've not had a chance to catch many games, or catch them in their entirety anyway. This also isn't helped by the sprinkling of UNtelevised games.

    BUT that said-

    When I have watched, and tonight was no exception, the offense doesn't look like an offense at all. I don't see a lot of screening going on. There's usually some motion but it looks helter skelter and many shots just seem to come when one of the guys decides it's time to take a shot (or so it appears). It's certainly not a smart motion game that I'm seeing. How about making the defense really work and fight thru screens?

    I don't see any sharpness in the cuts. None.

    Worse, some (many?) of the barrage of 3's come at inopportune times... Nothing like a momentum killing wasted possession leading to a long rebound and easy basket the other way.

    I think JO just might be the slowest player on the court in most games and there's no crispness to his movement at all.

    As most of you know, I've grown fairly unimpressed with JO over the years to the point I think it's best for parties to move on. For a player that is paid what he is paid, the return on the payment is WAY low.

    I'm also less than impressed with the defense I've seen. Offense will come and go... especially when you play it bad like we're known to do with quick 3's and hurried looks (and JO's patented turnaround clanker too)... but defense should be a constant. Our defense appears mainly to be constantly bad. Our best hope is that our shots fall early and the other team quits. Anytime the other team has some heart and hangs in there (even when down) our willy nilly offense will go cold, and our defense will let them back in the game.

    And for another knock on JO... I don't see this good or great defense some of you say he brings. Yeah, sometimes he blocks a shot. I've never considered shot blocking to be the only sign of good defense. JO's man usually has his way in the games that I've seen. JO might swat away a penetrating guard's shot but his own man's game doesn't seem that swayed by JO.

    I feel the same way about JO as some of you do about Murphy. ...Only difference being I'm trying to still give Murphy the benefit of the doubt. JO has used his up. But it's getting harder by the minute to give Murphy much more slack.

    I'm not seeing any coming together with this team either. I think JOB is blowing smoke when he's talking about his belief in them finishing strong. This team isn't made to finish strong because it's so badly put together that 'chemistry' will always be a problem.

    I realize Tinsley is out now (not that he'll help the defense) but we shouldn't have to rely on an unreliable player in the first place. Tinsley is unreliable on 2 counts:
    Injury Prone
    Mentally/Attitude

    You just can't trust that he can keep either one of those in check.

    As for what to do about all this? I haven't got the foggiest idea. Most of this stuff has been piling up for years. Other teams cut their losses and move on instead of letting this stuff fester until something HAS to be done (then it's a rushed, half-a$$, panic move).

    I hope Bynum was never actually offered for JO, and I hope we did try and trade JO for Bynum and LA rejected it.

    It's getting to a point that the best thing JO can bring to this team is an offer not to take his option. But that doesn't mean that getting rid of JO fixes anything immediately... it just opens the door to a process where we can start fixing things.

    -Bball
    Well damn it... I haven't made a decent contribution to this forum for God knows how long and then when I finally decide that I can't take it anymore and it's time to start complaining (oh and believe me I'm going to start complaining)... you go and say everything that I have on my mind before I get around to posting it .... it's not the first time you've done that to me Ball.... getoutta my head will ya!!

    Theres nothing I can add that you haven't already put down here soooo.... anyways.. yep, well that's that then isn't it. As usual I agree with you 100% on everything.

  8. #8
    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well... Not impressed.. Random thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    Stay the course....1,000 points of light......

    JO's trade value is tumbling. I can't see any team still offering what was rumored to be on the table over the summer.

    There's a whole lot wrong with this team and it starts at the top.
    Yup! But, then JO has 5 or 10 good games and his supporters will start demanding elite players and the likes for him or he gets injured again (or both). That's been the story for several years now IMO.

    Regards,

    Mourning
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  9. #9
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well... Not impressed.. Random thoughts

    Bball, since you haven't seen many games, probably the first thing you'll notice is that the Pacers can look very, very good and then within a seconds can look, very, very bad. No lead is safe and by the same token, but to a much lesser degree no deficit is too great.

    There is also some games where there is just a talent gap, and the other team is just better. (The home game against the Pistons comes to mind). I can live with that though. it is the losses after having a nice lead against poor teams that is driving me crazy - because it is a pattern.

    The other thing is this team has no one court leadership (especially with tinsley out, because he is the oncourt leader) right now the closest thing to an oncourt leader is Mike Dunleavy or Jeff Foster)

    One other thing, what has happened with Daniels shot, never seen so many airballs from the 15 feet before - almost everyone of his shots outside of 10 feet barely hit the rim or are airballs

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Well... Not impressed.. Random thoughts

    There's really nothing to be excited or impressed with about this team. It's just all-around blandness. Our current rotation is mediocre, and our young talent isn't great. We have no present and our future isn't looking great either, at least not with the current management.

    At least Dunleavy and Tinsley may have played their way into having some trade value. Let's take advantage of that and start the rebuilding process sooner rather than later. The sooner we start, the sooner re return to being a relevant basketball team.

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    Default Re: Well... Not impressed.. Random thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Kofi View Post
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    At least Dunleavy and Tinsley may have played their way into having some trade value. Let's take advantage of that and start the rebuilding process sooner rather than later. The sooner we start, the sooner re return to being a relevant basketball team.
    Those are currently our two most valuable player, so be careful. Plus I don't think either has much trade value, they are much more valuable to us than they are as trade value

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    Default Re: Well... Not impressed.. Random thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Those are currently our two most valuable player, so be careful. Plus I don't think either has much trade value, they are much more valuable to us than they are as trade value
    QFT

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    Default Re: Well... Not impressed.. Random thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Those are currently our two most valuable player, so be careful. Plus I don't think either has much trade value, they are much more valuable to us than they are as trade value
    Aggreed.
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    Default Re: Well... Not impressed.. Random thoughts

    Our most valuable trading piece is our 1st round pick, which I don't want to give up 2 years in a row unless a true and obvious talent or future talent is brought in for it.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well... Not impressed.. Random thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by pwee31 View Post
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    Our most valuable trading piece is our 1st round pick, which I don't want to give up 2 years in a row unless a true and obvious talent or future talent is brought in for it.
    By league rule (or better known as the Ted Stepian rule) a team cannot trade first round draft pics in consecutive years. So if the Cavs offered us James, if the Magic offered us Howard or if the Lakers offered us Bynum and all they wanted in return was our first round draft pic, we couldn't do it.

    Ted Stepian was the Cavs owner during the early 80's and he traded first round draft picks like they were baseball cards

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    Default Re: Well... Not impressed.. Random thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    By league rule (or better known as the Ted Stepian rule) a team cannot trade first round draft pics in consecutive years. So if the Cavs offered us James, if the Magic offered us Howard or if the Lakers offered us Bynum and all they wanted in return was our first round draft pic, we couldn't do it.

    Ted Stepian was the Cavs owner during the early 80's and he traded first round draft picks like they were baseball cards
    Oh yeah I forgot about that rule. Well I hope there's a good player out there when we're on the clock 6 months from now!

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    Default Re: Well... Not impressed.. Random thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    I haven't seen any games this season....

    I've seen enough of this team and the way that this offense has to run to know that with the given lineup that we have.....

    Huh??????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Default Re: Well... Not impressed.. Random thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by mb221 View Post
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    Huh??????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Sorry...poor choice of words.

    Although I have not seen that many games ( mainly cuz I am not in Indy ) on TV, I have read enough and listened to enough of the games on NBA.COM to know that there is very little chance that this team will improve this season. I think that what YOU guys see from the Pacers on TV and what I hear on NBA.com is what we should continue to expect for the rest of the season.

    Short Version:

    I've mentioned this before the start of the regular season, there are too many "This and That MUST happen" in order for this team to be successful. I have the upmost confidence that the system that JO'B put in place can make us a competitive team in the NBA....I just have little to no confidence that we have the right players to implement this system.

    Long Version:

    I am of the opinion that this offense can run very efficiently and effectively if ALL of the following are in sync:

    1 ) We have a Floor General running the offense the way that it should be run
    2 ) Everyone on the floor can efficiently score when they have the ball
    3 ) There is a lot of ball movement among the Players

    I am sure that there are more...but IMHO.....the above factors are one of the primary keys to making JO'Bs offensive system work. If one of the above factors are not in sync, because this team is poorly built to "weather the storm" when any potential "roadbump" comes our way, the whole system falters.

    The main problem that this team has is that we don't have a durable lineup. Key players that make this offense and defense work ( like Foster, JONeal, Tinsley, Marquis and Harrison ) have been injured at times ( or is continuing to nurse injuries that is affecting their game ) throughout the first couple of months. What is the end-result? On the offensive end...we are forced to depend on Dunleavy and Granger to carry the offensive load...which does happen from time to time......but doesn't happen as often. Other times, we are forced to give way more minutes to Murphy over Foster cuz Foster ( or even Harrison ) can't play that many minutes. What is the indirect result of Murphy playing more minutes the Foster? JONeal is forced to cover up the defensive liabilities that Murphy. When Tinsley is injured...we are forced to play Owens, Marquis or Deiner at the point....all players that can adequatly do the job...but clearly aren't up to doing so on a continual basis. Do you see a pattern here? When we have players that continue show a history of nursing injuries or are forced to miss games every now and then, it becomes less of an excuse and more of a key weakness in the way this team is built.

    By the end of the 1st 6 game losing streak....I agreed that the nay-sayers should practice patience....simply put, we weren't heathly enough. But I am coming around to the belief that JO'Bs system could work IF everyone is healthy, IF Granger and Dunleavy showed up on the offensive end on a regular basis and IF JONeal could effectively defend and EFFICIENTLY contribute on the offensive end on a regular basis.

    I know that many of you will disagree......but given the inability for this lineup to stay healthy, Dunleavy and Granger's inexplicable disappearance from the offensive end in games at times and JONeal's very "un-JONeal" like performance so far ( likely due to his ongoing recovery from surgery )....I just don't see the point of practicing "patience" any longer.

    The only thing that I think that may save us is if Granger and Dunleavy figure out a way to consistently contribute on the offensive end. It doesn't mean that they aren't trying.....it's just that there is something that is not clicking with them that I hope that they can figure out.

    Honestly, do you think that this team will stay healthy enough ( even for a small stretch ) to make JO'Bs offensive and defensive system work on a regular basis?

    Do you think that JONeal is all of a sudden going to "regain his hops"?

    As I mentioned before....I don't have to wait til March to figure out that neither of the above is likely to "all of sudden" go away and we will have "figured it out".
    Last edited by CableKC; 01-07-2008 at 02:54 PM.
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    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well... Not impressed.. Random thoughts

    Great post, Cable. I can subscribe to what you are saying. This team is just poorly constructed as it is and the injuries are not an incidental thing with this team, but absolutely structural. They occur and affect the team way too often and too much.

    Regards,

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    Default Re: Well... Not impressed.. Random thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning View Post
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    Great post, Cable. I can subscribe to what you are saying. This team is just poorly constructed as it is and the injuries are not an incidental thing with this team, but absolutely structural. They occur and affect the team way too often and too much.

    Regards,

    Mourning
    I just hope that us PD forum members aren't the only ones ( yes, I'm talking about TPTB ) that recognizes that there are some flaws in the way this team is built before the trade deadline...or at the very latest...sometime during the offseason.

    Unfortunately, given the outstanding moves that we have made over the last season....I have no re-assurances that TPTB won't continue to ride the JONeal bandwagon for another season...or worse.....trade Granger, Ike or Shawne before overvaluing JONeal ( yet again ).
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Well... Not impressed.. Random thoughts

    I am in utter shock. I agree with nearly everything in this thread. Sanity reigns on PD!

    BTW, where are the sunshiners?

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    Default Re: Well... Not impressed.. Random thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    I am in utter shock. I agree with nearly everything in this thread. Sanity reigns on PD!

    BTW, where are the sunshiners?
    Quietly questioning ourselves and finding it hard to refute Bball's post, as we often use to do.
    ...Still "flying casual"
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    Default Re: Well... Not impressed.. Random thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    Quietly questioning ourselves and finding it hard to refute Bball's post, as we often use to do.
    Don't feel bad. You guys are a *vital* lifeline to the franchise and whether we will admit it or not, us NN's envy your optimism.

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    Default Re: Well... Not impressed.. Random thoughts

    Bball isn't impressed? Shocking!



    I haven't been able to see hardly any games this year. Kind of stinks. That said, the team's record is much better than most everyone seemed to expect. So we must be doing some stuff right.
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    Default Re: Well... Not impressed.. Random thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Unfortunately, given the outstanding moves that we have made over the last season....I have no re-assurances that TPTB won't continue to ride the JONeal bandwagon for another season...or worse.....trade Granger, Ike or Shawne before overvaluing JONeal ( yet again ).
    That is EXACTLY what I am fearfull off aswell and I don't understand why there's still so many amongst us who would either prefer that path or don't see the inevitable coming (the franchise will have to choose between JO and the younger guys in the end).

    Regards,

    Mourning
    2012 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws

    2011 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws

    2006 PD ABA Fantasy League runner up, sports.ws

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