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Thread: Official 2008 NBA Draft recruiting center...

  1. #1201
    Call me Kauffie Kaufman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Official 2008 NBA Draft recruiting center...

    I think all the drama started by defining "combo guard" proves my point - I think its a terrible term.
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    Default Re: Official 2008 NBA Draft recruiting center...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    I think we have to build for when JO isn't here. That could be this summer or when his contract runs out.
    It's possible he could opt out this summer, but very unlikely.

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    Default Re: Official 2008 NBA Draft recruiting center...

    Opt out - he won't find anyone to pay him what he's making right now. it would be nice it we could opt out of him
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  4. #1204

    Default Re: Official 2008 NBA Draft recruiting center...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaufman View Post
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    I think all the drama started by defining "combo guard" proves my point - I think its a terrible term.
    I agree, and try not to use it myself. It's a lot easier to talk about a player's real skills.

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    Default Re: Official 2008 NBA Draft recruiting center...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaufman View Post
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    I think all the drama started by defining "combo guard" proves my point - I think its a terrible term.
    There's nothing wrong with the term, it's when people give their own definition (what the word means to them) instead of using the dictionary's definition that cause them not to understand each other.

    Here's a good article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combo_guard

    Tweener (basketball)

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    A tweener in basketball is a term, sometimes used derisively, for a player who is able to play two positions, but is not ideally suited to play either position exclusively, so he/she is said to be in between. This term is most commonly used only at the highest level of basketball competition, where players must combine extreme physical talent with specialised basketball abilities. A tweener has a set of skills that does not match the traditional position of his physical stature.
    NBA.com's definition of 'tweener is as follows:
    "This word is derived from the word "between", as in a player is between the height of a guard and a forward. "Tweeners" often have the skills of a big man, but the height of a guard. Though only six foot five, Charles Barkley, a tweener, was one of the NBA's greatest rebounding power forwards."
    A player who is ideally suited to play two positions is often referred to as a swingman.

    [edit] Power Forward/Center (Forward-Center)

    This tweener has the skills of either a Center or a Power Forward but is usually stronger than traditional Power Forwards and quicker than traditional Centers. Many times C/PF tweeners are used to create match-up problems. Amare Stoudemire is an example of such a player. Other prominent players who switch between Power Forward and Center are Jermaine O'Neal, Emeka Okafor, Tim Duncan, Pau Gasol, Dirk Nowitzki, and Dwight Howard, among others.

    [edit] Small Forward/Power Forward (combo forward)

    Traditionally a PF/SF tweener refers to a basketball player whose physical attributes and skills render him/her unsuited to play either the power forward position or the small forward position. For example the player may be too short, or lack sufficient strength, to play power forward effectively; while being not quick or athletic enough to play the small forward position. Some examples are Antoine Walker, Lamar Odom, Antawn Jamison, Boris Diaw, Marcus Fizer, Drew Gooden, and Al Harrington. They have the skills to play either forward position, but do not necessarily fit either forward position exclusively. They can be too big for most opposing small forwards to guard them and have a skill set that small forwards traditionally have (ex. outside scoring ability). Typical examples of European combo forwards are the retired Toni Kukoc and the currently active Andrei Kirilenko.

    [edit] Shooting Guard/ Small Forward (Guard-Forward)

    This tweener isn't suited to exclusively play either small forward or shooting guard. For example, he may be too short to play small forward, but lacks a guard's jumper or ball-handling skills to play the two-man. To counter this, this tweener could play as a swingman.
    Some swingmen have been known to play both the small forward and shooting guard position effectively, having the size and strength to play the small forward position, as well as the outside jumpshot and quickness to play the shooting guard position. These tweeners are known to cause matchup problems, and have proven to be very difficult to guard. Such players are Josh Howard, Kobe Bryant, and Tracy McGrady.

    [edit] Shooting Guard / Point Guard (combo guard)

    "Tweener" may also describe a player who combines the attributes of a shooting guard and point guard but does not fit the prototype of either position. Such guards usually play a shooting-guard-type game (looking more to score than to pass) but lack the height to guard opposing shooting guards and the skills to direct an offense that a "pure" point would display. Such players are also known as "combination (combo) guards". But after the success of Dwyane Wade during the 2004-05 season, there has been less stigma attached to the term and many current elite prospects are combo guards (Randy Foye, Eric Gordon, O.J. Mayo, Jarred Bayless).
    Most commonly, shooting guards are called 'tweeners' when considered too short for NBA-level competition. Conversely, they are unable to play point guard successfully at the highest level of professional basketball due to a lack of the mental specialization and understanding of the game that this position requires. These players are often referred to as being "a shooting guard trapped in a point guard's body." Some good examples of this are Allen Iverson, Gilbert Arenas, Baron Davis, Jason Terry, Juan Dixon, Steve Francis, Eddie House, John Paxson, Steve Kerr, Danny Ainge, and Luther Head. This is in stark contrast to pass-first type point guards who traditionally play the position such as Jamaal Tinsley, Jason Kidd, Andre Miller and Steve Nash among others. A great example of a European combo guard is Panathinaikos' Vasileios Spanoulis. Dwyane Wade is also a combo guard, despite being a pass first guard and also being a shooting guard.
    Guards 1. Point guard Combo guard (PG/SG)
    2. Shooting guard Swingman (SG/SF)
    Forwards 3. Small forward
    4. Power forward Point forward (PG/PF)
    Center 5. Center Forward-center (PF/C)
    Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tweener_%28basketball%29"

  6. #1206

    Default Re: Official 2008 NBA Draft recruiting center...

    Well thank God Wikipedia cleared that up.

  7. #1207

    Default Re: Official 2008 NBA Draft recruiting center...

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    If Westbrook is truly an NBA PG just waiting for some coaching then wasn't this the year to see that? Why wouldn't UCLA just go ahead and make that happen and let Collison come off the bench or flank off to the combo spot himself most of the time?
    UCLA must have felt he has some ability to play PG, as from the UCLA games I saw he was the backup PG and essentially shared playmaking duties with Collison. Collison did typically bring the ball across half court though. IIRC Westbrook started the first 6 games of the season at PG while Collison was injured. He averaged 6 apg and had a 2:1 assist to turnover ratio. Granted those games were not against the greatest competiotion. But for the year he averaged more assists than Collison - and slightly less FGA. Certainly there is more to being a PG than that, but Westbrook, IMO, doesn't fit the mode of the feared "short SG". I'll admit I only saw a handfull of UCLA games so maybe the ones I saw were abberations.

  8. #1208

    Default Re: Official 2008 NBA Draft recruiting center...

    I'd also like to say the single biggest quality I want from a PG is the ability to play D. Not necessarily rack up steals, but I want someone with the ability to disrupt the opposing teams offense by not allowing their PG to get where he wants to go and most importantly doesn't allow him to penetrate at will. Perimeter D is more important than interior D IMO. Maybe only a little, but penetration just kills every aspect of a defense - including rebounding. IMO, it is much easier to recover from doubling the post than it is to recover from dribble penetration.

    For any player that is what I look at first - can they guard the position they will play? Offenses can easily be structured tp take advantage of (or hide) unique skills (or deficencies) of players such as a bigman that can shoot the three, a PG that likes to play in the post, or facillitation of the offence through other players. So my preference would be to have a short scoring / defensive SG playing PG than Travis Diener. I mean no one would mistake Flip for a PG, but if he was an above average defender would PG still be the Pacers biggest need? Not to me. And I believe Westbrook will be a much better playmaker than Flip.
    Last edited by rm1369; 04-15-2008 at 09:02 PM.

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    Default Re: Official 2008 NBA Draft recruiting center...

    I think we still have a shot at the #10 pick. If the Nets can beat the Celtics tomorrow and we get punked by the Knicks I believe that we "beat" the Nets in the tiebreaker for 10th. So we've got that going for us.

  10. #1210
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    Default Re: Official 2008 NBA Draft recruiting center...

    god bless wiki
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  11. #1211
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    Default Re: Official 2008 NBA Draft recruiting center...

    Quote Originally Posted by RomanGabriel View Post
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    I think we still have a shot at the #10 pick. If the Nets can beat the Celtics tomorrow and we get punked by the Knicks I believe that we "beat" the Nets in the tiebreaker for 10th. So we've got that going for us.
    Neither of those is going to happen, and even if we tied it would be settled by a coin, not a tiebreaker.

    We've got #11.
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    Default Re: Official 2008 NBA Draft recruiting center...

    Mario Chalmers lacks size and the skills to be anything better than a below average backup in the NBA. He can shoot, and that's about it. I'd be ok with taking him in the second round, but anyone who suggests taking him with our own pick might be a little off in the head. No offense.

    Draft Express has him going #26 next year. NBADraft.net has him going #26 this year.

    Westbrook with our own 1st, and trade for a second 1st to pick up Chalmers in the 20's? Two of the best perimeter defenders in the draft.
    Last edited by Kofi; 04-16-2008 at 08:02 AM.

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    Default Re: Official 2008 NBA Draft recruiting center...

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    It seems like with a guy like Dunleavy on the team we could afford to run a combo type at the point. Someone like westbrook who would be great in transition would do great in Obie's system, than you could always have dunleavy run the offense in the half court set. Meanwhile Westbrook plays excellent defense on the perimeter.

    As somebody mentioned, Randy Foye is another guy who could fill this role, he is also a better jumpshooter than westbrook. If westbrook was gone when we pick I would like to see what combo of williams, diogu, and the #11 pick could fetch him. Minny getting Rose would make this more feasable.

    you know playmaking is not a huge problem on this team, we are 7th in the leauge in assists per game.
    Westbrook can bring the ball up pass to Dun. Then Westbrook can hit screens for the curl or flare to the baseline three. He penetrates well, but has shown that he forces the shot more than anything. No matter what player we get that player is not going to solve all of our problems. The player will generate some excitement, but also frustration will arise.

    A young guard who did not play sole PG is going to have a high TO rater. I see Westbrook doing this. The main reason why we faired well done the stretch was because we took care of the ball.

    If we bring in a youth that has a major role on this team I do not think our record would fair better. But our players getting the experience is whats needed. And you can't beat playoff experience neither.

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    Default Re: Official 2008 NBA Draft recruiting center...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kofi View Post
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    Mario Chalmers lacks size and the skills to be anything better than a below average backup in the NBA. He can shoot, and that's about it. I'd be ok with taking him in the second round, but anyone who suggests taking him with our own pick might be a little off in the head. No offense.

    Draft Express has him going #26 next year. NBADraft.net has him going #26 this year.

    Westbrook with our own 1st, and trade for a second 1st to pick up Chalmers in the 20's? Two of the best perimeter defenders in the draft.
    Who would be the other defender? Chalmers? I thought "He can shoot, and that's about it"?

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    Default Re: Official 2008 NBA Draft recruiting center...

    Quote Originally Posted by intridcold View Post
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    Who would be the other defender? Chalmers? I thought "He can shoot, and that's about it"?
    Offensively, he can shoot and that's about it. He's a sub-par playmaker who rarely gets to the line. His defense is the only reason he's being considered a late 1st rounder as opposed to a late 2nd rounder.

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    Default Re: Official 2008 NBA Draft recruiting center...

    His role on the Jayhawks was to shoot and distribute [and play d]. Robinson and Rush did the penetrating and kicking.

    Chalmers has incredible strength. I agree with you. I wouldn't reach for him with the 11 pick. But I would pick him over Collison and DJ in a heart beat.
    Last edited by Major Cold; 04-16-2008 at 01:18 PM.

  17. #1217

    Default Re: Official 2008 NBA Draft recruiting center...

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    It's possible he could opt out this summer, but very unlikely.
    Opt out or traded my point is that we need to start developing a big for the future. I see our main long term dilemmia is that we have no big for the future. This is either defensive or offensive.

    I'll give you a scenerio. Say we trade for a big. He will be overpaid normally from the get go and further salary strap us. If we draft the big he will develop hopefully in 2/3 years to become a starter saving the Pacers money.

    For the short term I believe drafting an average pg will probably get the Pacers to the playoffs next year. This of course will make it harder to build up the team.

    So what I think I am saying is that an average point guard gets paid less than a average big man. As well i see a servicable point guard as easy to snag in trade than a big. Not sure if that makes sense.

  18. #1218
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    Default Re: Official 2008 NBA Draft recruiting center...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaufman View Post
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    I think all the drama started by defining "combo guard" proves my point - I think its a terrible term.
    Mobley to me is a prime example of a very capable combo guard. He's not just catch and shooting or only dribbling for his own shot, he also can bring it up with at least some pressure on the ball and can work to spaces to get other guys shots.

    But he's not great at setting up space and plays, he doesn't have the full passing arsenal to make good on everything he sees. But you do like to have him dribble more than you'd normally let your SG do.

    The "point forward" is the same thing but applied to SF/PF players.

    Quis was not PG enough to really be a combo it turns out. Fred Jones just loved passing after jumping into the air and could only go right anyway which is why he wasn't a great combo. If Best was a bit taller he might have been a combo. I think Rose was something of a combo, but he wanted to be a pure PG and he didn't have enough PG skill to be that.



    I disagree strongly on Chalmers. He found guys with some really solid, smart passing that caught my attention. It's true that his role, the way the team ran, wasn't to just have him dominate the ball like Rose, Collison or Augustin did, it was far more of a shared duties situation (like Wash St too). But Chalmers showed nice fundamental passing, that true PG attitude, that suggested he got it far more than DJ and Collison often did as they fell into taking over way too much.

    Tinsley vs PHX, that's what you often saw from DJ and Collison. I and others have said in this thread that the assumption is "if he had better options", except that Collison did. I never real saw Chalmers get addicted to his own dribble or shot. But he did seem to have a solid sense of where the ball needed to go on a given play.

    And Rush...well he was anti-addicted to taking over at times. Passive to a fault.

  19. #1219
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    Default Re: Official 2008 NBA Draft recruiting center...

    you know playmaking is not a huge problem on this team, we are 7th in the leauge in assists per game.
    One issue I have with this is that a lot of those assists come on 3pt shots where the ball movement hasn't really created a wide open look. SOMETIMES yes, but not at the rate the assist per FGM would suggest. A lot of simple 2 man handoffs, dribble over the screen for a jumper, stuff like that where you didn't really see them break a team down and punish them with screens and deeper plays running several stages to get to a planned open look.

    There was tons of improv and to me it showed. I can't fault the scoring results exactly, but I still would like to see more playmaking brought in.


    If you want a late pick up for defensive stopping only then just get Weaver. You'll get him cheaper than Chalmers at this point, but he won't give you the offense nor the growth potential. My only knock on Mario is that all year I felt like he wasn't done yet, he has room to grow in college still (EJ too while we're on the subject).
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 04-17-2008 at 12:05 AM.

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    Default Re: Official 2008 NBA Draft recruiting center...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    Opt out or traded my point is that we need to start developing a big for the future. I see our main long term dilemmia is that we have no big for the future. This is either defensive or offensive.
    I want a big too. What I want is a point guard with our first pick, and then I want to trade up and get Robin Lopez for our big man.

  21. #1221
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    Default Re: Official 2008 NBA Draft recruiting center...

    FYI, Westbrook is in fact entering the draft (but not yet hiring an agent)

    http://www.dailybreeze.com/ci_8952361

    It says NBA personnel think he'll go 15-25. If he were on the board at 11 and we passed on him, a lot of people here would be upset.
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    Default Re: Official 2008 NBA Draft recruiting center...

    How ironic would it be if Mario Chalmers and Mateen Cleaves ended up on the same NBDL team?

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    Default Re: Official 2008 NBA Draft recruiting center...

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    I want a big too. What I want is a point guard with our first pick, and then I want to trade up and get Robin Lopez for our big man.
    Will, when I watch Robin play I think Jeff Foster. What is it about his game you find
    appealing for the Pacers? I want a big who at least is great in at least one area and
    capable at some point in the others. In this draft that means Thabeet, Love and maybe
    Arthur off the top of my head at least from where the Pacers are picking.
    Guard wise I see no one available at 11 who would not be a reach.
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    Default Re: Official 2008 NBA Draft recruiting center...

    Quote Originally Posted by blanket View Post
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    It says NBA personnel think he'll go 15-25. If he were on the board at 11 and we passed on him, a lot of people here would be upset.
    Who knows at this point. Some guys will shoot up and others will drop. It seems, though, that one of Westbrooke/Love/Augustin should be on the board when we pick.
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    Default Re: Official 2008 NBA Draft recruiting center...

    Quote Originally Posted by owl View Post
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    Will, when I watch Robin play I think Jeff Foster. What is it about his game you find
    appealing for the Pacers? I want a big who at least is great in at least one area and
    capable at some point in the others. In this draft that means Thabeet, Love and maybe
    Arthur off the top of my head at least from where the Pacers are picking.
    Guard wise I see no one available at 11 who would not be a reach.
    He will be slightly bigger than Jeff with more defensive energy that is why I like him. I think with the Pacers that we always need a hustler/energy guy. Someone to be a catalyst for a defensive mindset. Armstrong was that 2 years ago but now we don't have that guy.

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