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Trading JO and Tinsley will Exercise all our Demons. And now is the time.

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  • Trading JO and Tinsley will Exercise all our Demons. And now is the time.

    This team needs a clean break.

    From the brawl.

    From police incidents and embarrassing behavior.

    From mediocrity.

    From continually injury prone key players.

    From years of having no go-to player at the end of games.

    From chest-pumping egos that make the team concept slightly murky.


    Can we just package JO and JT in a trade and get it over with already? Now is the time: they are both playing well. Neither has received a terminal injury yet (and both could at ANY time, we all suspect). Neither are 30 yet.

    We won't get full value, but we'll get something. And we'll get the clean break we desparately need from the past.

    It feels like we've lanced the boil but left a little poison. It will grow back.

    I know many will flame and rage over this post, but I surely hope I don't have to say I told you so when one or both of these guys gets seriously injured. Or we have to watch another ten games down the stretch and in the playoffs where either JO or JT takes over the offense and succeeds 20 percent of the time, just enough to convince themselves and their homies that they ought to continue. For several more years.
    "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference


  • #2
    Re: Trading JO and Tinsley will Exercise all our Demons. And now is the time.

    Originally posted by McKeyFan View Post
    This team needs a clean break.

    From the brawl.

    From police incidents and embarrassing behavior.

    From mediocrity.

    From continually injury prone key players.

    From years of having no go-to player at the end of games.

    From chest-pumping egos that make the team concept slightly murky.


    Can we just package JO and JT in a trade and get it over with already? Now is the time: they are both playing well. Neither has received a terminal injury yet (and both could at ANY time, we all suspect). Neither are 30 yet.

    We won't get full value, but we'll get something. And we'll get the clean break we desparately need from the past.

    It feels like we've lanced the boil but left a little poison. It will grow back.

    I know many will flame and rage over this post, but I surely hope I don't have to say I told you so when one or both of these guys gets seriously injured. Or we have to watch another ten games down the stretch and in the playoffs where either JO or JT takes over the offense and succeeds 20 percent of the time, just enough to convince themselves and their homies that they ought to continue. For several more years.
    At different moments since the end of last season I've been where you are now. I know I've even posted at times that we truly need to move out the entire core we've had over the past 5-7 yrs, not just Jack and Ron.

    Then we go on a little spurt just enough to satsify me and I can live with it just a little longer. I feel fairly confident that small spurts of good play are all we can really expect. That means spinning our wheels in medicority purgatory.

    I definitely think a trade of some manner is seriously needed. Going this route means it will probably get worse before it gets better, but I do think finally putting this chapter in Pacers history behind us would probably be good for the psyche.

    The other option is to try and get something for some of our young guys or a guy like Dun who's playing well. I don't know that either Dun or Granger will ever amount to all that much, although I'd rather give them a chance minus JO and JT than the other way around I suppose.
    I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

    -Emiliano Zapata

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Trading JO and Tinsley will Exercise all our Demons. And now is the time.

      Originally posted by McKeyFan View Post
      Or we have to watch another ten games down the stretch and in the playoffs where either JO or JT takes over the offense and succeeds 20 percent of the time, just enough to convince themselves and their homies that they ought to continue. For several more years.
      I thought before the season that it would be a shock if this team makes the playoffs. Right now, they are on pace to do so, which is a credit to their effort and the coaches, given the raw talent level here. The last thing we need to do is to reduce the talent level further by trading away two of our best players for the sake of trading them...

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Trading JO and Tinsley will Exercise all our Demons. And now is the time.

        Inconsistent play is one thing. But the "type" of injury you are describing could happen to any player at any time. It's the nature of professional sports.

        You can talk trades all day, but I have yet to see anyone suggest a trade that is a) possible and b) will improve our team at those two positions. Unless, of course, your opinion of JO and Tins has them in the bottom third of the league at their positions. If that's the case, I guess your options may appear to be a bit more open.

        I think we need to take a deep breath after each of these losses.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Trading JO and Tinsley will Exercise all our Demons. And now is the time.

          To those posters who preach patience after losses, what is it that you can see coming out of the current situation that merits it?

          In other words, what good do you see coming from this group or what positive development do you forecast down the road that might result in us ever gettng out of the mediocrity or worse cycle?
          I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

          -Emiliano Zapata

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Trading JO and Tinsley will Exercise all our Demons. And now is the time.

            You can talk about trades until you're blue in the face but until someone can find a team that wants your demons you're wasting your breath.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Trading JO and Tinsley will Exercise all our Demons. And now is the time.

              D-bone is getting at something, and I think its this: its very much because we are over-achieving right now that a trade might be in order.

              Take a look, fellas, this is as good as it gets. Obie gets props for getting so much out of a mediocre group, but do we really want to wait three years toiling in mediocrity until the team tunes him out like they tuned out Carlisle?

              Obviously it all depends on what we get in return, but I would move JO if possible. I'd be looking for energy guys, draft picks, and some cap relief (although as long as we have Murph and Duns contracts getting significantly under the cap is probably unrealistic).
              2010 IKL Fantasy Basketball Champion Baltimore Bulldogs

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Trading JO and Tinsley will Exercise all our Demons. And now is the time.

                That'd be what, $32-35 million in salary? Tough to find any team wanting to make that deal.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Trading JO and Tinsley will Exercise all our Demons. And now is the time.

                  I'll vote in favor of patience if only because a better trade might
                  likely be had as the season wears on. As we get into late-Jan/early-
                  Feb and towards the 45-50 game mark, teams will either be looking
                  for the piece or pieces to put them over the top or they'll be Lottery
                  bound.

                  I may be in the minority. But I see no sense in making a deal that's
                  aimed at improving the Pacers 'this' year. I'd much rather do a deal
                  that nets assets intended to get them back into contention 2-3
                  yrs down the road.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Trading JO and Tinsley will Exercise all our Demons. And now is the time.

                    Originally posted by D-BONE View Post
                    To those posters who preach patience after losses, what is it that you can see coming out of the current situation that merits it?

                    In other words, what good do you see coming from this group or what positive development do you forecast down the road that might result in us ever gettng out of the mediocrity or worse cycle?
                    Before the season began you had us 6th in the east, 2nd in division, with wins over Dallas, Utah, etc? Really? I sure didn't, but I also didn't share the view of most "analysts".

                    30 games in I expected to see a team a little thin in depth at the guard positions and superstar talent to be playing inconsistent basketball. Fortunately, the good thus far has been better than advertised. I don't think it's overachieving nor do I think we've seen the best stretch of play out of this team.

                    Again, am I opposed to a trade? Never, if it's going to make us better. But a midseason trade will do nothing for consistency we want to see, and trading players like JO and Tins for lesser talent (which is all I think you can get) makes no sense either.

                    Turn the question around, what are you really going to gain by shipping JO and Tins out the door?

                    I feel much better with them than without them. I don't see how THEY are the problems when you look at a lack of depth at PG and someone that is a more reliable threat at 2. Diener doing it in mop time and Rush only when he's hot every once in awhile isn't what I have in mind. Do we have other commodities to trade to get that without moving JO and Tins? What will it cost? That's all beyond me.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Trading JO and Tinsley will Exercise all our Demons. And now is the time.

                      Originally posted by Rajah Brown View Post
                      I'll vote in favor of patience if only because a better trade might
                      likely be had as the season wears on. As we get into late-Jan/early-
                      Feb and towards the 45-50 game mark, teams will either be looking
                      for the piece or pieces to put them over the top or they'll be Lottery
                      bound.

                      I may be in the minority. But I see no sense in making a deal that's
                      aimed at improving the Pacers 'this' year. I'd much rather do a deal
                      that nets assets intended to get them back into contention 2-3
                      yrs down the road.
                      I can definitely understand this. I guess the original language does make it sound immediate. Waiting until closer to the deadline is no big deal. To me, that's still in the general present time frame as far as I'm concerned.
                      I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

                      -Emiliano Zapata

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Trading JO and Tinsley will Exercise all our Demons. And now is the time.

                        Originally posted by Rinuven View Post
                        Before the season began you had us 6th in the east, 2nd in division, with wins over Dallas, Utah, etc? Really? I sure didn't, but I also didn't share the view of most "analysts".

                        30 games in I expected to see a team a little thin in depth at the guard positions and superstar talent to be playing inconsistent basketball. Fortunately, the good thus far has been better than advertised. I don't think it's overachieving nor do I think we've seen the best stretch of play out of this team.

                        Again, am I opposed to a trade? Never, if it's going to make us better. But a midseason trade will do nothing for consistency we want to see, and trading players like JO and Tins for lesser talent (which is all I think you can get) makes no sense either.


                        Turn the question around, what are you really going to gain by shipping JO and Tins out the door?

                        I feel much better with them than without them. I don't see how THEY are the problems when you look at a lack of depth at PG and someone that is a more reliable threat at 2. Diener doing it in mop time and Rush only when he's hot every once in awhile isn't what I have in mind. Do we have other commodities to trade to get that without moving JO and Tins? What will it cost? That's all beyond me.
                        Certainly you have reasonable points here, especially about our current standing as opposed to preseason expectations. Unlike you, I am not confident this team can play much better or maintain its position in the EC the rest of the way.

                        Let's say we do manage to hold down 6. What does that really say? Back to the playoffs, an early exit, low draft pick, and still with same personnel wondering how we can improve the team from mediocre.

                        I can totally get with what RB says about waiting until closer to the deadline, but what I really agree with is what he and Bulldog say about making a move with an eye toward putting us back in contention in 2-3 years. I think that's the reality of the team we have.

                        JO and JT have played well this year, but I don't think they are part of the plan that will make us a contending team. Unless you can somehow move other guys for a serious star or two. They are complimentary pieces at best. While our other guys probably are, too, they don't have near the mileage and the history here of unmet expectations.
                        I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

                        -Emiliano Zapata

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Trading JO and Tinsley will Exercise all our Demons. And now is the time.

                          Originally posted by D-BONE View Post
                          Certainly you have reasonable points here, especially about our current standing as opposed to preseason expectations. Unlike you, I am not confident this team can play much better or maintain its position in the EC the rest of the way.

                          Let's say we do manage to hold down 6. What does that really say? Back to the playoffs, an early exit, low draft pick, and still with same personnel wondering how we can improve the team from mediocre.

                          I can totally get with what RB says about waiting until closer to the deadline, but what I really agree with is what he and Bulldog say about making a move with an eye toward putting us back in contention in 2-3 years. I think that's the reality of the team we have.

                          JO and JT have played well this year, but I don't think they are part of the plan that will make us a contending team. Unless you can somehow move other guys for a serious star or two. They are complimentary pieces at best. While our other guys probably are, too, they don't have near the mileage and the history here of unmet expectations.
                          I don't know what the exact formula is to get us back to contention in 2-3 years. But for me, as a fan, the playoff exits have hurt less than not making them at all. Maybe I'm putting too much emphasis on post season experience, but I feel getting there is more beneficial than not. Unless you are absolutely tanking, the odds aren't in your favor of getting a potential franchise player.

                          I would rather us keep our main talent, ride them (if possible) into the playoffs, get guys experience, and take the summer to evaluate our needs, then make another midseason trade, miss the playoffs and enter the summer (once again) not certain about what sort of team you really have. If at that point we see it's not going to work, then work to move whoever you need. I'd rather see that then make a knee jerk move now because we may or may not be overachieving. When we've looked good, we've looked really good. Is that because the stars just happened to line up that night?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Trading JO and Tinsley will Exercise all our Demons. And now is the time.

                            Exercise? Oh man. Be glad the Grammar Nazi is on vacation.
                            This space for rent.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Trading JO and Tinsley will Exercise all our Demons. And now is the time.

                              Originally posted by MckeyFan
                              And now is the time
                              Ummm...the time was like 12 months ago.
                              Read my Pacers blog:
                              8points9seconds.com

                              Follow my twitter:

                              @8pts9secs

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