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Thread: A question for Kstat, Fool, etc....

  1. #1
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default A question for Kstat, Fool, etc....

    Ok, I am asking this as an honest question.

    At this point in time do you consider this core group of Pistons on par with the core group of Pistons from the late 80's?

    I mean I understand that the late 80's won 2 titles but at this point in time I think that overall the records are very similar for the same time frame with the 80's getting one more title.

    Does this group of Pistons get enough respect for the job they are doing or will they forever be in the shadow of that 80's team that had bigger names, but IMO not better talent.

    If Pacer fans want to jump on board feel free, but please be respectfull. We could only dream of our franchise even being 1/4 as successful as Detroit has been over the past 20 plus years.


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    Default Re: A question for Kstat, Fool, etc....

    The only thing that I remember about the 80s Pistons was that they were known to be the "Bad Boys".

    IMHO...the reputation that the current Pistons will have in 10-20+ years is that they were always able to execute, convert and stop the opposing teams when they had to. Basically a less boring version of the Spurs.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: A question for Kstat, Fool, etc....

    Well the thing is that Microwave and Zeke had a knack for making spectacular impressions on you with some plays. And then Rodman, Laimbeer, Mahorn, etc had reps that gave them personality.

    Frankly even Sheed is a bit toned down with this group, and Ben is gone of course. Rip, Billups and Prince remind me of Dumars, the one guy from the Bad Boys that was sort of lost in the shuffle of big personalities. Now he's built a team of bland but fundamentally strong players just like himself.

    The Pistons have a bit of the Spurs in their success it seems. Even the brawl failed to stick to them very much. It was the Pacers who walked away from that with the big personalities and drama.


    Peck, the Pacers have easily been 1/4 of what the Pistons have been in the last 20. I'm really, really sick of ECF appearances being discarded like everyday items, especially when they went 7 games.

    Detroit was the team that dreamed of ever taking Jordan to a game 7, which they and everyone else failed to do. Only the 98 Pacers pulled that one off, again in the ECF.

    The Pacers went to 5 of 7 conference finals. 3 of those went 7 games, the other 2 went 6. And IIRC the Pistons have actually missed the playoffs more than the Pacers in the last 20 years.

    So to me it's a little odd to see this huge envy of what other teams have other than rings. And that's a pretty short list itself. It's mostly Chicago, LA and San Antonio, and I suppose Detroit (theirs are split in eras).

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    Default Re: A question for Kstat, Fool, etc....

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    The Pacers went to 5 of 7 conference finals. 3 of those went 7 games, the other 2 went 6. And IIRC the Pistons have actually missed the playoffs more than the Pacers in the last 20 years.
    I'd gladly trade Detroit's three NBA titles during that time span for everything the Pacers have ever done in the NBA, ever.

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    Rebound King Kstat's Avatar
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    Default Re: A question for Kstat, Fool, etc....

    Detroit was the team that dreamed of ever taking Jordan to a game 7, which they and everyone else failed to do.
    ...the hell? We beat Jordan in game 7 of the ECF back in 1990....

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: A question for Kstat, Fool, etc....

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Ok, I am asking this as an honest question.

    At this point in time do you consider this core group of Pistons on par with the core group of Pistons from the late 80's?

    I mean I understand that the late 80's won 2 titles but at this point in time I think that overall the records are very similar for the same time frame with the 80's getting one more title.

    Does this group of Pistons get enough respect for the job they are doing or will they forever be in the shadow of that 80's team that had bigger names, but IMO not better talent.

    If Pacer fans want to jump on board feel free, but please be respectfull. We could only dream of our franchise even being 1/4 as successful as Detroit has been over the past 20 plus years.
    Ok, I suppose I have to split this into two parts:

    1. No Piston fan will ever compare this team to the Bad Boys until they get a 2nd championship. Any Piston team from here on out will forever be defined by the number of championships they win. With that out of the way, the run with this team has been amazing. 5 division titles and 5 straight ECF appearances, vs 3 division titles and 5 straight ECF appearances during the bad boy era. The consistency is remarkable in both cases.

    2. Individually, the bad boys had one of the best collections of role players ever, but they also had a hall-of-fame backcourt.

    Think about that for a second. Name me two guards in NBA history that started together on the same team for 9 seasons, won two championships with each earning a finals MVP, played their whole careers for the same franchise and wound up in the hall of fame together.

    It's incredibly unfair to Chauncey and Rip to expect them to measure up to Joe and Zeke, arguably the greatest backcourt duo in NBA history.

    By comparison, Chauncey and Rip have put up remarkably competitive numbers.

    Rip Hamilton is on pace to become Detroit's all-time leading playoff scorer this summer, passing up zeke in fewer games. What's more, Chauncey will almost certainly pass up Joe Dumars to become #3.

    Rip Hamilton at his current pace will retire as one of the top 20 playoff scorers of all time, and push the franchise mark completely out of reach.

    And yet, he's never going to be mentioned in the same breath as Joe or Zeke, unless he brings more championships into the discussion, and perhaps a finals MVP of his own.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: A question for Kstat, Fool, etc....

    I've erased a couple posts that attempted to respond to this. I think I'll just state that I agree with Kstat both that the two championships out shine all else, completely, and that the individual match-ups don't favor the current team (not just in the back court).

    Losing to such a poor team last year doesn't help the present squad if you are trying to include the current season/immediate future seasons in with the comparison and the length of time for the current squad has the downside of roster change, Ben, of course but also Saunders, (who is a joke compared to Daddy Rich, no matter what Jay thinks about Daly) and maybe even important bench guys might factor (Corliss or James for instance).

    Then there's the time frames with the Bad Boys being right in the middle of Era defining teams like LA, the Celtics, and the Bulls. I mean the current Pistons beat the last ditch Lakers squad helping to end that era but they lost to the Spurs who are clearly the dominant force of the time and there's nothing else as far as that goes.

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: A question for Kstat, Fool, etc....

    Quote Originally Posted by travmil View Post
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    I'd gladly trade Detroit's three NBA titles during that time span for everything the Pacers have ever done in the NBA, ever.
    Seriously I wouldn't. Now I wouldn't trade the other way either if I was a Pistons fan. But there is a reason Reggie is going to the HOF.

    It sickens me that the short attention span is so bad. I've still got the entire special playoff run sections from the Star in the mid-90s, the passion for the team was through the roof. Those ECF runs, especially the first 3, were insanely electric.

    People here are flipping out over ONE YEAR out of the playoffs. One. And they barely missed that. And it took a monster tank to do it. That's how high the standard was raised by the run over the last 20 years. First round losses become unacceptable. I mean the Ron-JO ECF team says it all. 61 wins, ECF and fans were considering it a big failure. People (cough..Peck) critiqued the style of winning as not pleasant enough. We were so used to winning that it was assumed, our view was about the method of the winning instead.


    In a reverse view, if the Colts had suddenly jumped to the SB win out of nowhere and then fallen apart again I wouldn't consider that making up for years and years of butt kickings at the hands of Buffalo or Miami.

    Now the Pistons aren't the Heat, they have 2 solid runs around those title years, so it's a much more reasonable swap. But even still there were some grim years. Carlisle and Dumars made a drastic change to a team that appeared to be going nowhere.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 12-30-2007 at 08:37 AM.

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    Default Re: A question for Kstat, Fool, etc....

    Quote Originally Posted by Fool View Post
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    Then there's the time frames with the Bad Boys being right in the middle of Era defining teams like LA, the Celtics, and the Bulls. I mean the current Pistons beat the last ditch Lakers squad helping to end that era but they lost to the Spurs who are clearly the dominant force of the time and there's nothing else as far as that goes.
    Yeah, this is a big factor with all champs, just look at tennis.

    Gotta have the rival to help define yourself. I mean on one hand you can have just pure greatness that no one can match, but on the other people want to feel a sense of challenge to add weight to the accomplishment. It's a bit ironic really, that for a team to be great they can't be so much greater than at least some of the competition that it seems unfair, even though really that would be the ultimate test of greatness.


    My theory, and I don't mean this to sound Indy-centric, is that the NBA was badly hurt by the 1998 Pacers-Bulls outcome. Jordan was done, so you need to hand the baton. The Pacers were primed to be this team and already had Reggie as the playoff star icon to go with it. If Indy wins in Chicago and goes to the Finals, then doesn't get 4pt played by NY the next year, then you have this perfect continuation just like the 80's-early 90's had.

    That would have filled the gap, helped with the strike and then made the Lakers the "next in line" following DET-CHI-IND. I mean even the great Rockets teams suffer a bit of "well they didn't beat Jordan" dismissal, not that it's fair.

    Both Detroit and San Antonio would be helped by a Detroit win over the Spurs this year in 7 games. More so if Detroit could first knock-off the AS Celtics along the way. That would solidify this as the Spurs-Pistons era.


    I also really like KStat's point on the two backcourts. Honestly if it wasn't for the brawl and "Deeee-troit bas-ket-ball" this would be a pretty easy to like team, in big part because of Rip and Billups. Of course I was a huge fan of Rip's coming out of UConn too, I saw a lot of Reggie in him even then (too thin for NBA, but could score the ball in a ton of ways).
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 12-30-2007 at 08:50 AM.

  10. #10
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: A question for Kstat, Fool, etc....

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Yeah, this is a big factor with all champs, just look at tennis.

    Gotta have the rival to help define yourself. I mean on one hand you can have just pure greatness that no one can match, but on the other people want to feel a sense of challenge to add weight to the accomplishment. It's a bit ironic really, that for a team to be great they can't be so much greater than at least some of the competition that it seems unfair, even though really that would be the ultimate test of greatness.


    My theory, and I don't mean this to sound Indy-centric, is that the NBA was badly hurt by the 1998 Pacers-Bulls outcome. Jordan was done, so you need to hand the baton. The Pacers were primed to be this team and already had Reggie as the playoff star icon to go with it. If Indy wins in Chicago and goes to the Finals, then doesn't get 4pt played by NY the next year, then you have this perfect continuation just like the 80's-early 90's had.

    That would have filled the gap, helped with the strike and then made the Lakers the "next in line" following DET-CHI-IND. I mean even the great Rockets teams suffer a bit of "well they didn't beat Jordan" dismissal, not that it's fair.

    Both Detroit and San Antonio would be helped by a Detroit win over the Spurs this year in 7 games. More so if Detroit could first knock-off the AS Celtics along the way. That would solidify this as the Spurs-Pistons era.


    I also really like KStat's point on the two backcourts. Honestly if it wasn't for the brawl and "Deeee-troit bas-ket-ball" this would be a pretty easy to like team, in big part because of Rip and Billups. Of course I was a huge fan of Rip's coming out of UConn too, I saw a lot of Reggie in him even then (too thin for NBA, but could score the ball in a ton of ways).
    Oh sweet sweet irony.

    You make this statement yet whenever I tell you that the 61 win season is without much ado for me because of this exact reason you have a seizure.

    I'll tell you what you enjoy your success is a journey mentality and I'll take the instant gratification of a championship.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: A question for Kstat, Fool, etc....

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Oh sweet sweet irony.

    You make this statement yet whenever I tell you that the 61 win season is without much ado for me because of this exact reason you have a seizure.

    I'll tell you what you enjoy your success is a journey mentality and I'll take the instant gratification of a championship.
    But didn't the Pacers have the Pistons that year? Didn't it also fly in the face of everyone who said that the breakup of the 2000 team meant rebuilding and doom? Wasn't this a process of steps in which Rick as coach appeared to be the final piece? Heck, weren't the Pacers trying to measure up to the idea that the West was great and the East couldn't match them, despite the Pacers having the best record in the NBA VS THE WEST? Where's the irony? When have you said the 61 win team had nothing to compare against or measure up to?

    Good lord, the brawl says it all to me. That tells me about the passion that was running between the Pacers and the Pistons at that point, built up by the previous year. Disagree all you want, the Palace fans tell me the honest truth with their reaction to the Pacers that night, even prior to the fight.


    Also that team was the best in the East going into AS break the year before, hardly a one shot out of nowhere team. And on top of that they went back to the 2nd round the following year.


    My point remains the same, this is "failure" by a lot of spoiled definitions around Indy: 1st round, 1st round, 1st round (AS coach, 2 AS players), ECF (best record in NBA), 2nd round, 1st round

    Go back to 88 and let those Pacers fans in on that. Heck, go back to 95 and tell those fans they are watching crap failure. I mean it was ONLY the ECF.

    Reggie who? Wake me when he wins a ring, otherwise it's crap. I'm more than happy to keep my journey mentality if the option is a binary one.

  12. #12

    Default Re: A question for Kstat, Fool, etc....

    I don't know which group was better but I gotta say I have aot of respect for what this group of Pistons have done. Yer in and year out the Pistons are good and I just wish there were more of these teams in the NBA.

    Joe Dumars doesn't get enough credit fir the job he has done. I look at their team and he put together a hell of a team. He has aclear view of wheat he needs and gets it. I just hope that we can do the same.

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