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Thread: The trade almost one year later

  1. #26
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    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    2) Al was a soft defender/rebounder that shot the 3. Troy is too. But at this point I have to still give Al the advantage. Whatever Al does poorly, he still does it better than Troy as far as I can tell.
    I still think Troy is a better rebounder, but athleticism goes to Al.


    3) Contracts - still a hard loss for Indy
    Ain't it the truth.


    4) Ike - was the wild card then, still is the wild card now. The results with him on the court haven't been all that impressive. He still has size issues, passing issues, and mistake issues. He still gets great post position and has a real knack for scoring the ball.
    You know, it may not be fair to Ike, but I get the feeling that he is going to end his career as a guy that everyone liked, but never really attained the level everyone hoped for. Some of it may be related to his size. Too big for a 3, too short for a 4 or 5.


    I want to add that I do agree with Isaac regarding Al being the jump off point for this deal.
    That would mean TPTB wanted Al gone more than Jackson. I just can't see that. I think TPTB took advantage of the Warriors' interest in Al, in order to move Jackson. In other words, if you want Al, you take Jackson.

    Of course the Warriors replied, if you want A, you've got to take B.

    Let's not get revisionist here. The fans may have hated Jackson, but the coach clearly loved him. How can I say that? Um, huge hug following their matchup post-trade when Jack went off, as well as continued playing time for Jack despite his volatile reactions to Rick when he was unhappy about something (usually being pulled from a game).

    There were no signs of the frostiness that apparently ran between Tins and Rick. Does anyone see anything close to those 2 relationships being similar (Rick-Tins vs Rick-Jack)?
    All I can say about that part is - Tinsley is still here, and he and JOB seem to have a mutual respect and trust. Carlisle and Jackson are both gone, and I REALLY think both moves needed to happen in the team's best interests.

  2. #27
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    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    If you wanna play the "what if" game take this into consideration.

    How would it have been had we not made the trade, but instead fired Carlisle and hired O'Brien at mid season last year.
    Sort of a throw out the baby and keep the bathwater, huh?

    I guess if the Pacers had done that, they would still have dirty bathwater.

  3. #28
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    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    As the discussion of Ike Diogu has come up, and questions regarding his "black hole" reputation and what not, I have a question --- does anyone know what Ike's +/- throughout the year is?

    I realize he's only been available for a limited number of games but I find it interesting that he had a -11 in the +/- tonight.... disappointing!
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  4. #29
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    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    i started out thinking that the trade was pretty even, but one year later it seems to me that the warriors are the clear winner on this one.

    i agree with ub, jackson has been far and away the best player in the deal. diogu is the wildcard who could still turn things around, but honestly his basketball iq seems disturbingly low for a third year player who's had three years of college ball. and this coming from a diogu fan.

  5. #30

    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    From a purely basketball perspective, (not including off court behavior, fan frustration and all that BS, which is obviously important to any entertainment business, they don't call it Pacers Sports and Entertainment for nothing, eh?) we would be a much better team with Sjax instead of the 3 ex-warriors we have now.

    Maybe Ike will turn out into something good? I'm not holding my breath. If the other teams 2nd string frontcourt is under 6'8" and no wingspan, yeah, Ike is the man... alas, that is about 1 or 2 teams in the NBA.

    Murphy is ok, but so was Al (who we would still have), in fact, I'd rather have Al.

    MDJr is playing really well so far this year... or he was untill the last few games, but Sjax is a better player, on both sides of the ball IMHO. Even if we say SJax and MDJr is a wash, we are still behind on the trade a year later.

    I think with not doing the trade we would be up 5-10 games at the end of the season. I would have loved to have seen how those guys would have played with Obie. It woulda been fun.

    I, too, also feel that winning will bring folks to the games regardless of any bad off court image. Not that having a good image is important, but winning is the best advertisement. You can bet your ***, if this team was on a roll like say Portland is, winning 10+ games in a row, people would start noticing, and all the other stuff would be long forgotten.

  6. #31
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    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    Quote Originally Posted by UncleWTF View Post
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    From a purely basketball perspective, (not including off court behavior, fan frustration and all that BS, which is obviously important to any entertainment business, they don't call it Pacers Sports and Entertainment for nothing, eh?) we would be a much better team with Sjax instead of the 3 ex-warriors we have now.

    Maybe Ike will turn out into something good? I'm not holding my breath. If the other teams 2nd string frontcourt is under 6'8" and no wingspan, yeah, Ike is the man... alas, that is about 1 or 2 teams in the NBA.

    Murphy is ok, but so was Al (who we would still have), in fact, I'd rather have Al.

    MDJr is playing really well so far this year... or he was untill the last few games, but Sjax is a better player, on both sides of the ball IMHO. Even if we say SJax and MDJr is a wash, we are still behind on the trade a year later.

    I think with not doing the trade we would be up 5-10 games at the end of the season. I would have loved to have seen how those guys would have played with Obie. It woulda been fun.

    I, too, also feel that winning will bring folks to the games regardless of any bad off court image. Not that having a good image is important, but winning is the best advertisement. You can bet your ***, if this team was on a roll like say Portland is, winning 10+ games in a row, people would start noticing, and all the other stuff would be long forgotten.
    Great post. Summarizes exactly how I feel about the trade. As has been pointed out, Bird not casting off Carlisle prior to last year was the worst decision of all. Even more unbelievable since we know that LB had been advocating for the move to an up-tempo style since a year ago this offseason. I know hindsight is 20-20 and all, but it still merits stating.

    I say, LB (and MAYBE DW), you got us into this mess, now get us out of it. Find a reasonable trade that will continue to remake the team, but actually improve it. No more lateral or worse moves please.

  7. #32
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    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    And maybe, maybe just maybe, if Jackson was still here he would have been with Tinsley the other night after hours and he'd have taken a shot back at the people shooting Tinsley and they'd both be dead.

    Jackson was bad for the team. And most coaches can't control him.

    The antics he gets himself into take a toll on the team he is on. He is a ticking time bomb, just like Ron Artest was. Its time for us to now move on.

    Let him be gone.

    And I'm not a hater. I liked his game. He was fun to watch (when he was hitting his shots).
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  8. #33

    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    Quote Originally Posted by UncleWTF View Post
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    MDJr is playing really well so far this year... or he was untill the last few games,
    I really don't know how you could say his last few games have been bad, well all except his TO. In the last three games he has done this.

    DateOpponentResultMINFGM-A3PM-AFTM-AOFFDEFREBASTSTLBLKTOPFPTS
    Dec 29vs. DET L 92 - 98315 - 82 - 26 - 60552102318
    Dec 28@ DET L 101 - 114264 - 41 - 10 - 0033301409
    Dec 26@ ATL L 95 - 107313 - 61 - 24 - 62464303611


    So, he is still shooting over 50%, getting around 3 ast and about 3 - 4 boards a game in that strech. The most shots he has taken was last nights game aginst Det, and he put up 18 pts.

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    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    Personally Mike Dunleavy Jr is slowly becoming my favorite Pacer on the team. It seems Troy is slowly improving on D. Still extremly overpaid and I would like to see him moved for a Solid Defender at the 2.


    I can't stand SJax2 I truely believe he was the flame that lite Ron's fuse and the downfall of this team. Imagine where this team could have been if he would have rushed into the crowd and grabbed Ron and pulled him out instead of coming over Ron's shoulder and laying into another fan. Reggie lost his shot at a championship at that moment. We where on pace for another 60 win season and that broke Indy's heart. Reggie deserved better.

  10. #35
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    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    Quote Originally Posted by esabyrn333 View Post
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    Personally Mike Dunleavy Jr is slowly becoming my favorite Pacer on the team. It seems Troy is slowly improving on D. Still extremly overpaid and I would like to see him moved for a Solid Defender at the 2.


    I can't stand SJax2 I truely believe he was the flame that lite Ron's fuse and the downfall of this team. Imagine where this team could have been if he would have rushed into the crowd and grabbed Ron and pulled him out instead of coming over Ron's shoulder and laying into another fan. Reggie lost his shot at a championship at that moment. We where on pace for another 60 win season and that broke Indy's heart. Reggie deserved better.
    It was at that moment of the brawl, I knew the Pacers had started a long downhill slide. It was literally like witnessing the death of the franchise. Some of us could tell at that moment in time that we would be where we are today.

    This is perhaps the main reason why character, not just basketball IQ/ability counts to many Pacer fans.

  11. #36
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    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    Quote Originally Posted by esabyrn333 View Post
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    Personally Mike Dunleavy Jr is slowly becoming my favorite Pacer on the team. It seems Troy is slowly improving on D. Still extremly overpaid and I would like to see him moved for a Solid Defender at the 2.


    I can't stand SJax2 I truely believe he was the flame that lite Ron's fuse and the downfall of this team. Imagine where this team could have been if he would have rushed into the crowd and grabbed Ron and pulled him out instead of coming over Ron's shoulder and laying into another fan. Reggie lost his shot at a championship at that moment. We where on pace for another 60 win season and that broke Indy's heart. Reggie deserved better.
    Imagine if Ron had never gone in there in the first place....

    Sure Jack played his role in the brawl and his actions should not be condoned, but Ron Artest is a grown man and he is the one responsible for rushing into the crowd. No one else.

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  12. #37
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    The downward spiral of this franchise began the first time Donnie Walsh looked the other way when Ron was being Ron and that was long long long before the brawl.

    Of course some of us beleive that the downward spiral of this team began when they dismantled the 00 team. Yes, yes I know the usual suspects are going to come on here and give me thier two cents worth on that subject but just save your typing fingers. I will go to my grave believeing that that team would have went right back to the finals and nothing you are going to say will change my mind.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    The downward spiral of this franchise began the first time Donnie Walsh looked the other way when Ron was being Ron and that was long long long before the brawl.

    Of course some of us beleive that the downward spiral of this team began when they dismantled the 00 team. Yes, yes I know the usual suspects are going to come on here and give me thier two cents worth on that subject but just save your typing fingers. I will go to my grave believeing that that team would have went right back to the finals and nothing you are going to say will change my mind.
    Is your whole idea stemming from we could & should have paid Jackson what he wanted, kept Dale, and that would have convinced Rik to stick around?

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    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy View Post
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    Imagine if Ron had never gone in there in the first place....

    Sure Jack played his role in the brawl and his actions should not be condoned, but Ron Artest is a grown man and he is the one responsible for rushing into the crowd. No one else.

    He rushed into the crowd and Jax rushed into the crowd. One grabed a guy by the throat and one started throwing hay makers. Both lost its credibility with the majority of the fans at that point. Jax was a ring leader and followed that up with letting everyone know that he was from the street and if his boy was in a fight we was going to throw down and that he was not changing for anyone. This is the Indiana Pacers we are better than that you go from
    This
    PG Mark Jackson
    SG Reggie Miller
    SF Derek Mckey
    PF Dale Davis
    C Rik Smitts

    To

    PG Jamaal Tinsley
    SG Steven Jackson
    SF Ron Artest
    PF Jermaine O'neal
    C Jeff Foster

    Wonder why Foster is a fan favorite. I like the way Tinsley has been playing this year and I hope the near death experince opened his eyes I loved Rons game but the dude was flat crazy. Can't stand Jax2. Jermaine had some monster shoes to fill. I like him over all. Jeff everyone loves. I can't stand his game have been praying to see him traded for a long time. I would love to see him and Murphy transformed into one player. I just would love to see a team like the 90's Pacers be built from the ground up starting now.

  15. #40
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    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    Is your whole idea stemming from we could & should have paid Jackson what he wanted, kept Dale, and that would have convinced Rik to stick around?
    Short answer, yes.

    You know I had a huge long reply typed up here and was going to go over point by point everything I thought was important, but then I thought "why bother".

    Anthem, Acadian, etc., etc. will be on here any moment to tell me how the team had peaked and blah, blah, blah.

    They are entitled to their opinions and so am I.

    I'll just leave it at this, I liked that 2000 team 1,000,000,000 % better than any moment of any team we have had since.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  16. #41

    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I'll just leave it at this, I liked that 2000 team 1,000,000,000 % better than any moment of any team we have had since.
    Even the 6 1/2-man show post-brawl? That was at least fun.

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    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    It was at that moment of the brawl, I knew the Pacers had started a long downhill slide. It was literally like witnessing the death of the franchise. Some of us could tell at that moment in time that we would be where we are today.

    This is perhaps the main reason why character, not just basketball IQ/ability counts to many Pacer fans.
    Hate to rehash this thing with the brawl, but this post echoes my sentiments as I sat in complete and utter awe on my couch watching the brawl unfold in Auburn Hills that night.

    Also, I would like to second what esabyrn333 said about Jack's "influence" on Ron. Ron was never that volatile before Jack came, and hasn't been that volatile since he left the Pacers (and Jack). Sure, he shouldn't have gone into the stands as a professional ball player (I'm not condoning that in any way about Psycho), but any warm blooded man would have reacted that way in an instantaneous reactive moment. Its very unfortunate.

    Just my opinion.

  18. #43
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    All I can say about that part is - Tinsley is still here, and he and JOB seem to have a mutual respect and trust. Carlisle and Jackson are both gone, and I REALLY think both moves needed to happen in the team's best interests.
    What I was saying though is that I doubt Rick was in Bird's ear saying "move this guy". On the other hand Al was openly criticizing Rick and Rick benched him after a halftime about 2 weeks before the trade. If either player wasn't working in the Rick system it was Al, not Jackson.

    I think fans that disliked Jackson just assumed it was about him, but I honestly think if you remove personal views on Jackson and only look at the circumstances between the coach and the roster that it looks a lot more like it was time for Al to go.

    I feel strongly that had Jackson long since been moved that at that point Al still would have been dealt. "I guess I'm gonna have to go Ron Artest", not the words to win over the coach or GM at that point.

    Ron was never that volatile before Jack came
    Holy freaking crap. Riley, HD camera, his own photos, endless flagrants...that was 2 years before Jackson showed up.


    I'm actually on Peck's side about keeping the 2K team together. Their demise was grandly overestimated. Rik would have stayed if Jax stayed, and he would have if the offer was better. I think Dale could have worked out too. And frankly even if he didn't, putting JO in his spot doesn't exactly hurt things if Jax and Rik are still here.

    I think the Rose/Best PG thing hurt the most, primarily Best. Oh, and there was that little error in overpaying Croshere instead. Good thing that never flared up again (cough...Brad...cough).

  19. #44
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    Relevent from the +/- thread
    Season
    Dun +53
    Troy -25
    Ike -50

    Last 10
    Dun 0
    Troy +42
    Ike -15

    Ike is -11.66 per48 in that last 10, his number would be worse with more minutes.

    The Ike factor is flopping in this deal so far, but now Troy is making a push toward respectable instead. Go figure. Credit where it's due, Troy's doing great.

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    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Holy freaking crap. Riley, HD camera, his own photos, endless flagrants...that was 2 years before Jackson showed up.

    OK. Not AS volatile. But Jack certainly lit a bigger fuse in Psycho. And, who was right behind Ron egging for some more action in the stands? Jack was a punk, still is, and always will be, good riddance. Ron just needed some Prozac. It was like adding fuel (Jack) to the fire (Ron).

    The Riley incident was lame and not worthy of discussion. The dude with the camera admittedly was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Ron didn't take it out on the camera guy, he took it out on the camera. Flagrants are a part of the game Seth. DunDun gets them - don't try to say that made a difference. Ron had them, so did Jack.

    Also, I don't ever recall Ron shooting a gun in public. I think thats a bit more excessive then defending yourself with a drunk Piston fan.

    I'm not defending Ron's actions, I'm just saying the ramifications of his actions were exacerbated with Jack around.

  21. #46
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    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    I've never recalled Stephen Jackson or Mike Dunleavy committing a flagrant foul or playing recklessly in the same manner that Ron did.

    Let's put it this way: Ron has had a checkered past his whole damn life and away from the Pacers, he's still been a very inconsistent character. Jack, on the other hand, went 28 years before the brawl and one incident afterwords. His post-Pacers (and pre-Pacers) tenure has been flawless off the court.

  22. #47

    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    I still think Troy is a better rebounder, but athleticism goes to Al.
    Both these guys rebound when the mood strikes them and they rebound well when playing against softer players just like them. Seriously they play lazy.

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    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    Quote Originally Posted by ajbry View Post
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    I've never recalled Stephen Jackson or Mike Dunleavy committing a flagrant foul or playing recklessly in the same manner that Ron did.

    Let's put it this way: Ron has had a checkered past his whole damn life and away from the Pacers, he's still been a very inconsistent character. Jack, on the other hand, went 28 years before the brawl and one incident afterwords. His post-Pacers (and pre-Pacers) tenure has been flawless off the court.
    In general I agree with you re: Ron >Psycho> Jackson, but I have ask in response to the bold: Oh really? Tell me again, why does Jackson leave red clothing in his locker? Why were there custom-made red Pacer jerseys with his name and number floating around?

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    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    In general I agree with you re: Ron >Psycho> Jackson, but I have ask in response to the bold: Oh really? Tell me again, why does Jackson leave red clothing in his locker? Why were there custom-made red Pacer jerseys with his name and number floating around?
    I don't see how growing up surrounded by Bloods makes him a criminal. Dude didn't have a choice. He's stated it pretty simply...

    "I was just raised like that," he says. "All my friends. I don't trip on nobody with no blue rag, but at the same time, it's what I represent. It's what I've represented since I was 9 years old. All my friends in my neighborhood. It was just inherited. I ain't banging, though.

    "I got in a couple of scruffs over it," he recalls. "It's nothing I'm embarrassed about. It just happened growing up. Walking outside, everybody got on red, I can't walk outside in blue."

  25. #50

    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    Quote Originally Posted by ajbry View Post
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    I don't see how growing up surrounded by Bloods makes him a criminal. Dude didn't have a choice. He's stated it pretty simply...

    "I was just raised like that," he says. "All my friends. I don't trip on nobody with no blue rag, but at the same time, it's what I represent. It's what I've represented since I was 9 years old. All my friends in my neighborhood. It was just inherited. I ain't banging, though.

    "I got in a couple of scruffs over it," he recalls. "It's nothing I'm embarrassed about. It just happened growing up. Walking outside, everybody got on red, I can't walk outside in blue."

    What if everyone wasn't in red or blue? But pink! or fushia! or maybe emerald green.
    This gangster crap is really stupid. You would think a grown man with millions of dollars would not still be stuck in this juvinile mindstate of glorified gansters reppin colors..
    As much as I like Sjax's game, this kinda stuff makes me glad he is gone. The last thing this world needs is more idiots "representing" the bloods, or the crypts, or MS13 or whatever other evil and violent gangs are out there, on a national stage, especially for the Pacers.
    Last edited by PaceBalls; 01-02-2008 at 04:44 PM.

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