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The trade almost one year later

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  • The trade almost one year later

    I have some time this morning, so I am starting this thread a few weeks earlier than the one year anniversary.

    I thought it might be interesting to take a new look at the trade involving the Warriors and the Pacers. Let me say upfront that I will not debate the reasons why the trade had to happen or even if it was a good trade or bad trade. I only plan to look at the 5 players still on the teams they were traded to. (so no talk of Saras, Powell, or Mcloud)

    Whenever I look at a trade, I always start with the best player that was traded. And as much as I might hate to admit it, the best of the 5 players for his current team is clearly Stephen Jackson . He is clearly the second most important player on a team that is currently 17-12. And then when you consider he was out the first handful of games and look at their record since he's been back Jackson has a real chance of being an allstar this season. The trade has saved his career. And I have no problem with that , I swish him well except when he plays the Pacers.

    OK, now lets move to the second best player in that trade. Mike Dunleavy. He won't make the allstar team and he isn't the most important player on the Pacers team. He isn't the second most important player either. I call him the guy that makes things work. He the type of player (except in the Knicks game) where you don't really notice him that much when he's on the floor. It is when he goes to the bench that you realize his true value. So many times this season I'll be watching a game and the team is struggling, going through one of their bad runs within a game - it seems with rare exceptions that bad stretches occur when Mike is on the bench.

    I clearly think Mike is more valuable than Granger at this time - he's most important to our success. It is strange because there will be times during the game, when I'll think, we need Rush's shooting ability, Granger's defense, Williams athleticism, Daniels all around play and there will be times when I almost forget about Mike - but he's the only one of those guys that makes other players better. He makes the team better just by being on the floor. Mike is perfect in this offensive system, and if the pacers do have an allstar player, Mike should be the only who makes it.


    After those two guys there is a dropoff to Al Harrington . It seems a little strange that Nelson is the 3rd head coach he's had that thinks he's best as a 6th man. I realize he is starting right now and might very well continue to start the rest of the season, but it just seems all of his coaches (except in Atlanta) think he is better coming off the bench. When the trade was made, I considered Al the best player in the trade, now I think he's clearly the 3rd best player. At this point in his career I think he is what he is. A poor rebounder, a streaker scorer, a decent defender - a nice player to have around, but nothing more.


    Let's move to Troy Murphy . Yes he can shoot, yes he has good hands, he's not a horrible passer, he can rebound (although he doesn't very much) he IMO is just an average player - not that there is anything wrong with that (well except for his salary) His team defense is really not bad, his one-on-one defense is often bad beyond discription. As I mentioned a few weeks ago, he is slow and small for a power forward - that is a bad combination.


    Ike Diogu anyone else notice how many people are starting to call him Ike Diogo, it seems like Quinn started it, now Slick calls him that and even O'Brien has called him that. Ike is not the type of post player that you can just throw him the ball and have him go to work. Against bigger players he has trouble getting his shot off. He needs to get more face-up shots though and post ups after ball reversals and misdirection plays. I like Ike, whenever he plays big minutes he scores and rebounds.

    Who has this trade helped more the Pacers or Warriors. At first glance it has helped the Warriors more - no doubt. Does that mean I wish the trade had never taken place, absolutely not - the trade had to be made and the trade also helped the Pacers - it wasn't going to work with Al and Jax here.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 12-28-2007, 12:01 PM.

  • #2
    Re: The trade almost one year later

    I feel like it was a pretty even trade now. Dunleavy for Jackson straight up I feel is an even trade in terms of what both teams needed, I think this worked out well for both teams. Both players needed a new enviornment and it has allowed them both to succeed.

    Then you have Murphy and Diogu for Harrington and junk. Mcleod was an expiring contract for two fairly worthless players, and than after that the trade all depends on Diogu. If diogu pans out or nets us a nice player in a trade I would say we broke even. Murphy is a decent player who is vastly overpaid. I like him on this team if you cut his salary in half (and he comes off the bench). The trade was really harrington for diogu, but someone had to make the salaries work, and a bad contract was the price for a young player with potential. At least Murphy isn't totally worthless, he has his games where he makes a positive impact, sometimes...

    However, I think Dunleavy for Jackson straight up might have been the best option... our contract situation sucks. But we will see... If Diogu ends up being a key piece in a trade for us, it may turn out to have been worthwile.
    "As a bearded man, i was very disappointed in Love. I am gathering other bearded men to discuss the status of Kevin Love's beard. I am motioning that it must be shaved."

    - ilive4sports

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    • #3
      Re: The trade almost one year later

      I guess I've got to argue against SJack here. He's putting up similar percentages as far as shooting goes as he did here, he just get's more shots in that system (as I'm sure he would've under our system now had he still been here). Dunleavy is shooting nearly 50%. If Dun Dun were more aggressive, I have to think he'd be close to an All-Star.

      Harrington is a dud as far as reaching his ceiling. He has reached his cap and hopefully he'll learn how to do more "little" things to make his team better instead of worrying about his scoring average. His time for that is over.

      Murph is Croshere without the fan favortism.

      Ike still needs some PT. Until that day, the Warriors got more of what they needed than the P's did. If JO was some how gone, then we might be able to see what Ike is capable of. I don't know if he'll ever be able to reach that crazy potential of being a solid starter, but seems to be suited towards coming off the bench and schooling the opposing teams 2nd string.

      I'm still glad it all happened in order to get rid of the attitude crew we had in at that time.

      PS. Still waiting for the other shoe to drop with Jack. May not happen this year........but tick tick tick....

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: The trade almost one year later

        Originally posted by Phildog View Post
        Murph is Croshere without the fan favortism.
        Murphy is a much better all around scorer then Cro and a better rebounder too. His defense is worse, but I think the things he does bring on the offensive side make him a far more valuable player to us then Cro was.

        At the same time, I really feel like Ike plays better and better the longer he's in a game without foul trouble. He's very active and a couple made shots and a nice rebound when he first gets in really gets him in the flow of the game nicely. If Ike comes in and doesn't do anything quickly he seems to get yanked, and I think JOB needs to do a better job making him a big part of what we do. In 2 years he could very well be the best player in this deal.

        When you look at how this trade benifits us though, I don't think you can look at what Jack and Al are doing with Golden State, you have to look at who they were as players for us, and what has happened to our team since we moved them. I think even though we had that major dropoff last season after the deal, we avoided a major chemisty issue and possibly some irreparable damage to JO and Al's friendship. They were doing a worse and worse job co-existing with each other last season, and Al had pretty much given up on being aggressive with the ball and was just looking to shoot the 3. Jack we pretty much had to move for obvious reasons. For those 2 must move parts, we took bad some big salaries but we got 3 players who contribute for us now much more then the 2 parts we gave away last season, great deal.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: The trade almost one year later

          First of all, great thread idea / conversation (a year into the trade) for evaluation.

          I think this was one of the best addition by subtraction trades that has ever happened for the Pacers. Jack absolutely HAD to go, and it was at Al's expense. The other players were throw ins to make it work obviously. It was unfortunate losing Al, because of the "double loss" with losing the first round pick to get him back from the Hawks in the first place.

          Since then, Al has proven to be what he is, an average, streaky player who doesn't like to get physical getting rebounds or playing tough defense. He'd rather camp on the 3 point line. And that wasn't what we needed him to do.

          DunDun is a great team player, and an average one on one player. But I'd rather have a great team oriented player in the offense we are running now. In RC's offense, DunDun was basically useless. Props to LB for finding the right coach in Obie (or so it seems right now anyway) to get the best out of the players that we have. I have always believed that you have to coach to the players strengths.

          Troy is an OK player, but just simply way overpaid. Ala, Croshere. If Troy's salary was cut in half, he would be a great value player. But as I have said before, I think he is a false positive player (with his so called double double capabilities), because his one on one defense is atrocious.

          Jack. What can you say. He is a time bomb. Pretty good shooter, but bad shot selection at the same time. Arguing with the refs, when his player is on the other end scoring just absolutely kills team defense and chemistry. I do not miss that one little bit. His bad outweighs his good IMO. Good riddance.

          Ike. I wish we could have convinced Mullin to give us Ellis or even Barnes instead. Just think how our team would have looked with one of those 2. Oh well, thats water under the bridge now. Ike can be good, but he needs minutes. How many will he get under JO is the big question. We need to put him on a stretching machine and give him about 4 more inches (keep your jokes to yourselves). If he was 7 foot instead of 6'8", he could be dominate (ala Dwight or even the emerging Bynum). Other than that, I really like his work ethic and hustle. At this point, I think Hulk has caught up to him in value though (just my opinion).

          All that said ... it was an equal trade. It has made both teams better in the end. However, there is a fuse burning and its in Oakland now.

          Go Pacers!!!

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: The trade almost one year later

            If you wanna play the "what if" game take this into consideration.

            How would it have been had we not made the trade, but instead fired Carlisle and hired O'Brien at mid season last year.

            Let's face it, no matter who was here under what circumstance. As long as you had the combination of Jermaine O'Neal and Rick Carlisle together the style of play was going to be the style of play. I contend that nobody benefits other than O'Neal from that that play.

            So now go back and add Jackson, Saras & Al to the new system under O'Brien and try and figure if they would have done as well, better or worse than the group we have now.

            Hard to say really.

            But to the trade itself I'll just say this. No one player in this deal is significantly better than the other at this time so from that standpoint the Pacers have 3 of 4 left playing while the Warriors have 2 of 4. So I guess we came out a little ahead there.

            But IMO, the entire thing was a wash from a talent standpoint.

            So having said that, you had chemistry issues on the team prior to the trade and as of now you don't have any that are public anyway.

            This was a trade that IMO, helped both teams, yet didn't solve either of their problems.

            But I will say this, prior to the trade the team was dead in the water with zero upward mobility at all. You can make the same argument now, but I just get the feeling that we have more ability to either move up or down with the current group.


            Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: The trade almost one year later

              [QUOTE=Peck;636476]
              How would it have been had we not made the trade, but instead fired Carlisle and hired O'Brien at mid season last year.

              well, this particular "what-if" is a moot point, since the motivation behind the trade was to rid the team of the accumulated tension and bad press that had piled up since the brawl...

              and, for the most part, it has been successful in that. and i prefer the present line-up (and coach) over what we had before.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: The trade almost one year later

                Originally posted by BoomBaby33 View Post
                I think this was one of the best addition by subtraction trades that has ever happened for the Pacers. Jack absolutely HAD to go, and it was at Al's expense. The other players were throw ins to make it work obviously. It was unfortunate losing Al, because of the "double loss" with losing the first round pick to get him back from the Hawks in the first place.
                I disagree with this. I think this trade was based around the Pacers calling the Warriors to gauge their interest in Al, since they had been the other team in the running before he came here. I think it started with Al for Ike and both players had contracts/personalities that needed to go and those got swapped as well.

                Obviously all speculation, but I think Larry and Donnie decided Al needed to go which just happened to open the door for Jack to be moved.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: The trade almost one year later

                  The Warriors got better you'd have to say. I'd say we stayed about the same at least right now.


                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: The trade almost one year later

                    The coach change thing is interesting. I think Bird may have had it right in his day about a 4 year shelf life, unless your Jerry Sloan I guess.

                    I don't think there is a coach on the planet that was going to coach that team over the long haul, to many "me" guys, imho.

                    I guess before the trade I felt like the ceiling was based on chemistry and selfishness. This made it a bad product AND completely unlikeable.

                    Now I guess I feel the ceiling is based on talent or lack thereof. Still frustrating, but not quite the jagged pill.

                    I remember Boyle saying once, you have to have talent to win at this level. Seems simple and obvious, but its true.

                    I guess overall, I see this a step in the right direction, but I don't see this group nearly good enough to compete at the highest level. I'm not down on them, but with each passing game I just wonder is Tinsley taking over the 4th quarter the foundation of what this team is about. Is Murphy shooting the ball as soon as he touches it what I'm going to watch all the time.

                    Looking back on the trade, I echo whats been said, it had to be done. I like the guys they got back infinitely better. I just see it as a step, not the destination.

                    Lastly, listening to all the Reggie games the last couple of days on WIBC or 1070 or whatever it is,has really made me realize how far off this group is, imho.
                    Last edited by Speed; 12-28-2007, 02:39 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: The trade almost one year later

                      Obie single-handedly turned this deal from laughable to respectable. Dunleavy has been excellent so far.

                      It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

                      Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
                      Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
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                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: The trade almost one year later

                        1) I agree with Kstat. Maybe it wasn't JOB per se, but something has Mike dropping the 3 better than ever. That has moved him to even with Jackson perhaps in my book. I was saying it all off-season, that a key to some surprise improvement would be Mike fixing his outside shot.

                        One area that we still are hurting on this comparison is emotion. Fans might have hated Jackson, but that dude brings emotion to the table and gets teams fired up and interested. As likable as Dun is, this just isn't his strong suit.

                        2) Al was a soft defender/rebounder that shot the 3. Troy is too. But at this point I have to still give Al the advantage. Whatever Al does poorly, he still does it better than Troy as far as I can tell.


                        3) Contracts - still a hard loss for Indy


                        4) Ike - was the wild card then, still is the wild card now. The results with him on the court haven't been all that impressive. He still has size issues, passing issues, and mistake issues. He still gets great post position and has a real knack for scoring the ball.

                        To me if Hulk was healthy he'd clearly be ahead of Ike. That makes Ike somewhat redundant. Shawne adds to that too.

                        -- Bottom line, right now I don't think Ike has been enough to make up for the contract hit and the slight edge with Al-Troy or the fire/emotion edge Jack has over Mike.

                        I mean compare where the team was last year in W-L vs now, and that included some injury issues and Jackson starting the first month with by far his worst 3pt effort, which can be assumed to be related to the hit and run.



                        I want to add that I do agree with Isaac regarding Al being the jump off point for this deal. Pacers had shown interest in Ike, GS had chased Al. Al was coming off a big pout session and a benching by Rick. This included the PUBLIC comment of Al going "Ron Artest" (his words).

                        Let's not get revisionist here. The fans may have hated Jackson, but the coach clearly loved him. How can I say that? Um, huge hug following their matchup post-trade when Jack went off, as well as continued playing time for Jack despite his volatile reactions to Rick when he was unhappy about something (usually being pulled from a game).

                        There were no signs of the frostiness that apparently ran between Tins and Rick. Does anyone see anything close to those 2 relationships being similar (Rick-Tins vs Rick-Jack)?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: The trade almost one year later

                          well, this particular "what-if" is a moot point, since the motivation behind the trade was to rid the team of the accumulated tension and bad press that had piled up since the brawl...

                          and, for the most part, it has been successful in that.
                          8 Seconds, Shawne Williams, Cloud 9, horrible attendance...

                          For the most part it's been a massive failure. I'm not even against the players in those situations, I'm pretty anti-fan on the matter. My point is just that to me TPTB tried to fix something that the fans were saying was the reason they didn't like the team, and that after doing what they asked the fans double-crossed them.


                          "Did we say we'd watch if you got rid of Jackson? No, we didn't mean that, we meant that if you got Garnett and Reggie came out of retirement and the team went 17-3 to start the year that THEN we'd show up. But you guys wouldn't listen so I guess it's Colts time for us. Let's us know when you show the fans you care again."

                          Clearly by now it should be obvious that I'm extremely bitter about local fan support for any of the sports teams. My feelings about the local press coverage isn't much better, and not even so much the sports department but rather the general news that feeds on some ramped up Pacers drama far more than it tries to bask in the reason we like having local teams.

                          Unforgiven (paraphrased)
                          "Well I guess they had it coming."

                          To me that's the press, they've gone into "had it coming" when it comes to Pacers bad luck. It's long since stopped being us against the world, which was the attitude back in the early 90's. Of course the fans didn't show up back then either, but at least the press liked the team.

                          And the response to that quote is of course: "We all got it coming kid." That's why it should be us against the world, because honestly the Pacers players haven't been devils, haven't been dealing drugs, DUI'd, caught stealing or any of the other issues that plague the other "in trouble with the law" teams. They don't have it coming anymore than the rest of us as far as I can tell.
                          Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 12-28-2007, 04:39 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Re: The trade almost one year later

                            Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
                            8 Seconds, Shawne Williams, Cloud 9, horrible attendance...

                            For the most part it's been a massive failure. I'm not even against the players in those situations, I'm pretty anti-fan on the matter. My point is just that to me TPTB tried to fix something that the fans were saying was the reason they didn't like the team, and that after doing what they asked the fans double-crossed them.
                            Call me when a player that we got in the trade gets into trouble, then you may have a point.

                            Jax had been involved in more than one incident, so by getting rid of him and by getting players who stay out of trouble they did what they intended to do.

                            Now if you want to argue that Tinsley should be gone too, that's different, but view the trade as the trade.

                            As far as attendance, the actual players were half of the problem. Winning was the rest.
                            Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

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                            • #15
                              Re: The trade almost one year later

                              At this point, it worked out well for both sides, precisely what a trade is meant to do especially when both teams are giving up pieces that were no longer in ideal situations.

                              Dunleavy's playing the best ball of his career and is the perfect complimentary, system-type guy. Nothing wrong with that, although it's hard to count on him to step up and carry the team on his back. Dude does a lot of small things that makes the offense run.

                              Harrington was ALWAYS overrated. I never had any idea why people felt he was the best player in the deal, the only edge he possibly could've had over Jack was scoring-wise and Jack's career PPG is actually higher. Relies on open looks created from Baron and Jack and doesn't do much else. Can score but defense is mediocre, rebounding still hasn't improved. Chemistry-wise, Al's fantastic. He's real tight with both Jack and Baron and that gives him a lot of value on that team from a personality standpoint.

                              Murphy is essentially the same as Al, but certainly less prolific. Better rebounder but even more feeble defensively and relies too much on the open perimeter shot created by the better players. Overpaid. Neither team exactly grabbed a valuable veteran big man in this deal, to say the least.

                              Diogu, as has been said a million times, is the wild card. Still too small a sample size to really figure out if he sways the balance. I doubt he becomes a force down low, but I wouldn't discount his ability to be a go-to post scorer off the bench averaging about 10-12 PPG on a relatively decent percentage.

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