Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 57

Thread: The trade almost one year later

  1. #1
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    32,912

    Default The trade almost one year later

    I have some time this morning, so I am starting this thread a few weeks earlier than the one year anniversary.

    I thought it might be interesting to take a new look at the trade involving the Warriors and the Pacers. Let me say upfront that I will not debate the reasons why the trade had to happen or even if it was a good trade or bad trade. I only plan to look at the 5 players still on the teams they were traded to. (so no talk of Saras, Powell, or Mcloud)

    Whenever I look at a trade, I always start with the best player that was traded. And as much as I might hate to admit it, the best of the 5 players for his current team is clearly Stephen Jackson . He is clearly the second most important player on a team that is currently 17-12. And then when you consider he was out the first handful of games and look at their record since he's been back Jackson has a real chance of being an allstar this season. The trade has saved his career. And I have no problem with that , I swish him well except when he plays the Pacers.

    OK, now lets move to the second best player in that trade. Mike Dunleavy. He won't make the allstar team and he isn't the most important player on the Pacers team. He isn't the second most important player either. I call him the guy that makes things work. He the type of player (except in the Knicks game) where you don't really notice him that much when he's on the floor. It is when he goes to the bench that you realize his true value. So many times this season I'll be watching a game and the team is struggling, going through one of their bad runs within a game - it seems with rare exceptions that bad stretches occur when Mike is on the bench.

    I clearly think Mike is more valuable than Granger at this time - he's most important to our success. It is strange because there will be times during the game, when I'll think, we need Rush's shooting ability, Granger's defense, Williams athleticism, Daniels all around play and there will be times when I almost forget about Mike - but he's the only one of those guys that makes other players better. He makes the team better just by being on the floor. Mike is perfect in this offensive system, and if the pacers do have an allstar player, Mike should be the only who makes it.


    After those two guys there is a dropoff to Al Harrington . It seems a little strange that Nelson is the 3rd head coach he's had that thinks he's best as a 6th man. I realize he is starting right now and might very well continue to start the rest of the season, but it just seems all of his coaches (except in Atlanta) think he is better coming off the bench. When the trade was made, I considered Al the best player in the trade, now I think he's clearly the 3rd best player. At this point in his career I think he is what he is. A poor rebounder, a streaker scorer, a decent defender - a nice player to have around, but nothing more.


    Let's move to Troy Murphy . Yes he can shoot, yes he has good hands, he's not a horrible passer, he can rebound (although he doesn't very much) he IMO is just an average player - not that there is anything wrong with that (well except for his salary) His team defense is really not bad, his one-on-one defense is often bad beyond discription. As I mentioned a few weeks ago, he is slow and small for a power forward - that is a bad combination.


    Ike Diogu anyone else notice how many people are starting to call him Ike Diogo, it seems like Quinn started it, now Slick calls him that and even O'Brien has called him that. Ike is not the type of post player that you can just throw him the ball and have him go to work. Against bigger players he has trouble getting his shot off. He needs to get more face-up shots though and post ups after ball reversals and misdirection plays. I like Ike, whenever he plays big minutes he scores and rebounds.

    Who has this trade helped more the Pacers or Warriors. At first glance it has helped the Warriors more - no doubt. Does that mean I wish the trade had never taken place, absolutely not - the trade had to be made and the trade also helped the Pacers - it wasn't going to work with Al and Jax here.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 12-28-2007 at 12:01 PM.

  2. #2
    Feed the big fella. Infinite MAN_force's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Broadripple
    Age
    29
    Posts
    2,255

    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    I feel like it was a pretty even trade now. Dunleavy for Jackson straight up I feel is an even trade in terms of what both teams needed, I think this worked out well for both teams. Both players needed a new enviornment and it has allowed them both to succeed.

    Then you have Murphy and Diogu for Harrington and junk. Mcleod was an expiring contract for two fairly worthless players, and than after that the trade all depends on Diogu. If diogu pans out or nets us a nice player in a trade I would say we broke even. Murphy is a decent player who is vastly overpaid. I like him on this team if you cut his salary in half (and he comes off the bench). The trade was really harrington for diogu, but someone had to make the salaries work, and a bad contract was the price for a young player with potential. At least Murphy isn't totally worthless, he has his games where he makes a positive impact, sometimes...

    However, I think Dunleavy for Jackson straight up might have been the best option... our contract situation sucks. But we will see... If Diogu ends up being a key piece in a trade for us, it may turn out to have been worthwile.
    "As a bearded man, i was very disappointed in Love. I am gathering other bearded men to discuss the status of Kevin Love's beard. I am motioning that it must be shaved."

    - ilive4sports

  3. #3

    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    I guess I've got to argue against SJack here. He's putting up similar percentages as far as shooting goes as he did here, he just get's more shots in that system (as I'm sure he would've under our system now had he still been here). Dunleavy is shooting nearly 50%. If Dun Dun were more aggressive, I have to think he'd be close to an All-Star.

    Harrington is a dud as far as reaching his ceiling. He has reached his cap and hopefully he'll learn how to do more "little" things to make his team better instead of worrying about his scoring average. His time for that is over.

    Murph is Croshere without the fan favortism.

    Ike still needs some PT. Until that day, the Warriors got more of what they needed than the P's did. If JO was some how gone, then we might be able to see what Ike is capable of. I don't know if he'll ever be able to reach that crazy potential of being a solid starter, but seems to be suited towards coming off the bench and schooling the opposing teams 2nd string.

    I'm still glad it all happened in order to get rid of the attitude crew we had in at that time.

    PS. Still waiting for the other shoe to drop with Jack. May not happen this year........but tick tick tick....

  4. #4
    Member Isaac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Chicago
    Age
    26
    Posts
    3,150

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    Quote Originally Posted by Phildog View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Murph is Croshere without the fan favortism.
    Murphy is a much better all around scorer then Cro and a better rebounder too. His defense is worse, but I think the things he does bring on the offensive side make him a far more valuable player to us then Cro was.

    At the same time, I really feel like Ike plays better and better the longer he's in a game without foul trouble. He's very active and a couple made shots and a nice rebound when he first gets in really gets him in the flow of the game nicely. If Ike comes in and doesn't do anything quickly he seems to get yanked, and I think JOB needs to do a better job making him a big part of what we do. In 2 years he could very well be the best player in this deal.

    When you look at how this trade benifits us though, I don't think you can look at what Jack and Al are doing with Golden State, you have to look at who they were as players for us, and what has happened to our team since we moved them. I think even though we had that major dropoff last season after the deal, we avoided a major chemisty issue and possibly some irreparable damage to JO and Al's friendship. They were doing a worse and worse job co-existing with each other last season, and Al had pretty much given up on being aggressive with the ball and was just looking to shoot the 3. Jack we pretty much had to move for obvious reasons. For those 2 must move parts, we took bad some big salaries but we got 3 players who contribute for us now much more then the 2 parts we gave away last season, great deal.

  5. #5
    Member BoomBaby33's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    On The Westside
    Posts
    783
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    First of all, great thread idea / conversation (a year into the trade) for evaluation.

    I think this was one of the best addition by subtraction trades that has ever happened for the Pacers. Jack absolutely HAD to go, and it was at Al's expense. The other players were throw ins to make it work obviously. It was unfortunate losing Al, because of the "double loss" with losing the first round pick to get him back from the Hawks in the first place.

    Since then, Al has proven to be what he is, an average, streaky player who doesn't like to get physical getting rebounds or playing tough defense. He'd rather camp on the 3 point line. And that wasn't what we needed him to do.

    DunDun is a great team player, and an average one on one player. But I'd rather have a great team oriented player in the offense we are running now. In RC's offense, DunDun was basically useless. Props to LB for finding the right coach in Obie (or so it seems right now anyway) to get the best out of the players that we have. I have always believed that you have to coach to the players strengths.

    Troy is an OK player, but just simply way overpaid. Ala, Croshere. If Troy's salary was cut in half, he would be a great value player. But as I have said before, I think he is a false positive player (with his so called double double capabilities), because his one on one defense is atrocious.

    Jack. What can you say. He is a time bomb. Pretty good shooter, but bad shot selection at the same time. Arguing with the refs, when his player is on the other end scoring just absolutely kills team defense and chemistry. I do not miss that one little bit. His bad outweighs his good IMO. Good riddance.

    Ike. I wish we could have convinced Mullin to give us Ellis or even Barnes instead. Just think how our team would have looked with one of those 2. Oh well, thats water under the bridge now. Ike can be good, but he needs minutes. How many will he get under JO is the big question. We need to put him on a stretching machine and give him about 4 more inches (keep your jokes to yourselves). If he was 7 foot instead of 6'8", he could be dominate (ala Dwight or even the emerging Bynum). Other than that, I really like his work ethic and hustle. At this point, I think Hulk has caught up to him in value though (just my opinion).

    All that said ... it was an equal trade. It has made both teams better in the end. However, there is a fuse burning and its in Oakland now.

    Go Pacers!!!

  6. #6
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,776

    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    If you wanna play the "what if" game take this into consideration.

    How would it have been had we not made the trade, but instead fired Carlisle and hired O'Brien at mid season last year.

    Let's face it, no matter who was here under what circumstance. As long as you had the combination of Jermaine O'Neal and Rick Carlisle together the style of play was going to be the style of play. I contend that nobody benefits other than O'Neal from that that play.

    So now go back and add Jackson, Saras & Al to the new system under O'Brien and try and figure if they would have done as well, better or worse than the group we have now.

    Hard to say really.

    But to the trade itself I'll just say this. No one player in this deal is significantly better than the other at this time so from that standpoint the Pacers have 3 of 4 left playing while the Warriors have 2 of 4. So I guess we came out a little ahead there.

    But IMO, the entire thing was a wash from a talent standpoint.

    So having said that, you had chemistry issues on the team prior to the trade and as of now you don't have any that are public anyway.

    This was a trade that IMO, helped both teams, yet didn't solve either of their problems.

    But I will say this, prior to the trade the team was dead in the water with zero upward mobility at all. You can make the same argument now, but I just get the feeling that we have more ability to either move up or down with the current group.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  7. #7

    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    [QUOTE=Peck;636476]
    How would it have been had we not made the trade, but instead fired Carlisle and hired O'Brien at mid season last year.

    well, this particular "what-if" is a moot point, since the motivation behind the trade was to rid the team of the accumulated tension and bad press that had piled up since the brawl...

    and, for the most part, it has been successful in that. and i prefer the present line-up (and coach) over what we had before.

  8. #8
    Member Isaac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Chicago
    Age
    26
    Posts
    3,150

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    Quote Originally Posted by BoomBaby33 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I think this was one of the best addition by subtraction trades that has ever happened for the Pacers. Jack absolutely HAD to go, and it was at Al's expense. The other players were throw ins to make it work obviously. It was unfortunate losing Al, because of the "double loss" with losing the first round pick to get him back from the Hawks in the first place.
    I disagree with this. I think this trade was based around the Pacers calling the Warriors to gauge their interest in Al, since they had been the other team in the running before he came here. I think it started with Al for Ike and both players had contracts/personalities that needed to go and those got swapped as well.

    Obviously all speculation, but I think Larry and Donnie decided Al needed to go which just happened to open the door for Jack to be moved.

  9. #9
    DIET COKE! Trader Joe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Troll Hunting
    Age
    26
    Posts
    31,720

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    The Warriors got better you'd have to say. I'd say we stayed about the same at least right now.

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
    momentarygodsblog.com https://twitter.com/momentarygods

  10. #10
    Member Speed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Brownsburg
    Posts
    8,599

    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    The coach change thing is interesting. I think Bird may have had it right in his day about a 4 year shelf life, unless your Jerry Sloan I guess.

    I don't think there is a coach on the planet that was going to coach that team over the long haul, to many "me" guys, imho.

    I guess before the trade I felt like the ceiling was based on chemistry and selfishness. This made it a bad product AND completely unlikeable.

    Now I guess I feel the ceiling is based on talent or lack thereof. Still frustrating, but not quite the jagged pill.

    I remember Boyle saying once, you have to have talent to win at this level. Seems simple and obvious, but its true.

    I guess overall, I see this a step in the right direction, but I don't see this group nearly good enough to compete at the highest level. I'm not down on them, but with each passing game I just wonder is Tinsley taking over the 4th quarter the foundation of what this team is about. Is Murphy shooting the ball as soon as he touches it what I'm going to watch all the time.

    Looking back on the trade, I echo whats been said, it had to be done. I like the guys they got back infinitely better. I just see it as a step, not the destination.

    Lastly, listening to all the Reggie games the last couple of days on WIBC or 1070 or whatever it is,has really made me realize how far off this group is, imho.
    Last edited by Speed; 12-28-2007 at 02:39 PM.

  11. #11
    Rebound King Kstat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Charlotte, NC
    Age
    32
    Posts
    28,259

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    Obie single-handedly turned this deal from laughable to respectable. Dunleavy has been excellent so far.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

    Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
    Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
    NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

  12. #12
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Downtown baby
    Posts
    12,635

    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    1) I agree with Kstat. Maybe it wasn't JOB per se, but something has Mike dropping the 3 better than ever. That has moved him to even with Jackson perhaps in my book. I was saying it all off-season, that a key to some surprise improvement would be Mike fixing his outside shot.

    One area that we still are hurting on this comparison is emotion. Fans might have hated Jackson, but that dude brings emotion to the table and gets teams fired up and interested. As likable as Dun is, this just isn't his strong suit.

    2) Al was a soft defender/rebounder that shot the 3. Troy is too. But at this point I have to still give Al the advantage. Whatever Al does poorly, he still does it better than Troy as far as I can tell.


    3) Contracts - still a hard loss for Indy


    4) Ike - was the wild card then, still is the wild card now. The results with him on the court haven't been all that impressive. He still has size issues, passing issues, and mistake issues. He still gets great post position and has a real knack for scoring the ball.

    To me if Hulk was healthy he'd clearly be ahead of Ike. That makes Ike somewhat redundant. Shawne adds to that too.

    -- Bottom line, right now I don't think Ike has been enough to make up for the contract hit and the slight edge with Al-Troy or the fire/emotion edge Jack has over Mike.

    I mean compare where the team was last year in W-L vs now, and that included some injury issues and Jackson starting the first month with by far his worst 3pt effort, which can be assumed to be related to the hit and run.



    I want to add that I do agree with Isaac regarding Al being the jump off point for this deal. Pacers had shown interest in Ike, GS had chased Al. Al was coming off a big pout session and a benching by Rick. This included the PUBLIC comment of Al going "Ron Artest" (his words).

    Let's not get revisionist here. The fans may have hated Jackson, but the coach clearly loved him. How can I say that? Um, huge hug following their matchup post-trade when Jack went off, as well as continued playing time for Jack despite his volatile reactions to Rick when he was unhappy about something (usually being pulled from a game).

    There were no signs of the frostiness that apparently ran between Tins and Rick. Does anyone see anything close to those 2 relationships being similar (Rick-Tins vs Rick-Jack)?

  13. #13
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Downtown baby
    Posts
    12,635

    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    well, this particular "what-if" is a moot point, since the motivation behind the trade was to rid the team of the accumulated tension and bad press that had piled up since the brawl...

    and, for the most part, it has been successful in that.
    8 Seconds, Shawne Williams, Cloud 9, horrible attendance...

    For the most part it's been a massive failure. I'm not even against the players in those situations, I'm pretty anti-fan on the matter. My point is just that to me TPTB tried to fix something that the fans were saying was the reason they didn't like the team, and that after doing what they asked the fans double-crossed them.


    "Did we say we'd watch if you got rid of Jackson? No, we didn't mean that, we meant that if you got Garnett and Reggie came out of retirement and the team went 17-3 to start the year that THEN we'd show up. But you guys wouldn't listen so I guess it's Colts time for us. Let's us know when you show the fans you care again."

    Clearly by now it should be obvious that I'm extremely bitter about local fan support for any of the sports teams. My feelings about the local press coverage isn't much better, and not even so much the sports department but rather the general news that feeds on some ramped up Pacers drama far more than it tries to bask in the reason we like having local teams.

    Unforgiven (paraphrased)
    "Well I guess they had it coming."

    To me that's the press, they've gone into "had it coming" when it comes to Pacers bad luck. It's long since stopped being us against the world, which was the attitude back in the early 90's. Of course the fans didn't show up back then either, but at least the press liked the team.

    And the response to that quote is of course: "We all got it coming kid." That's why it should be us against the world, because honestly the Pacers players haven't been devils, haven't been dealing drugs, DUI'd, caught stealing or any of the other issues that plague the other "in trouble with the law" teams. They don't have it coming anymore than the rest of us as far as I can tell.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 12-28-2007 at 04:39 PM.

  14. #14
    Member Since86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Muncie
    Posts
    21,528

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    8 Seconds, Shawne Williams, Cloud 9, horrible attendance...

    For the most part it's been a massive failure. I'm not even against the players in those situations, I'm pretty anti-fan on the matter. My point is just that to me TPTB tried to fix something that the fans were saying was the reason they didn't like the team, and that after doing what they asked the fans double-crossed them.
    Call me when a player that we got in the trade gets into trouble, then you may have a point.

    Jax had been involved in more than one incident, so by getting rid of him and by getting players who stay out of trouble they did what they intended to do.

    Now if you want to argue that Tinsley should be gone too, that's different, but view the trade as the trade.

    As far as attendance, the actual players were half of the problem. Winning was the rest.

  15. #15
    One man show ajbry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Cape Cod, MA
    Age
    26
    Posts
    4,696

    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    At this point, it worked out well for both sides, precisely what a trade is meant to do especially when both teams are giving up pieces that were no longer in ideal situations.

    Dunleavy's playing the best ball of his career and is the perfect complimentary, system-type guy. Nothing wrong with that, although it's hard to count on him to step up and carry the team on his back. Dude does a lot of small things that makes the offense run.

    Harrington was ALWAYS overrated. I never had any idea why people felt he was the best player in the deal, the only edge he possibly could've had over Jack was scoring-wise and Jack's career PPG is actually higher. Relies on open looks created from Baron and Jack and doesn't do much else. Can score but defense is mediocre, rebounding still hasn't improved. Chemistry-wise, Al's fantastic. He's real tight with both Jack and Baron and that gives him a lot of value on that team from a personality standpoint.

    Murphy is essentially the same as Al, but certainly less prolific. Better rebounder but even more feeble defensively and relies too much on the open perimeter shot created by the better players. Overpaid. Neither team exactly grabbed a valuable veteran big man in this deal, to say the least.

    Diogu, as has been said a million times, is the wild card. Still too small a sample size to really figure out if he sways the balance. I doubt he becomes a force down low, but I wouldn't discount his ability to be a go-to post scorer off the bench averaging about 10-12 PPG on a relatively decent percentage.

  16. #16
    Administrator Roaming Gnome's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Indy's Wild Wild West Side: 8 sec-check...Club Rio-check...Cloud 9-check
    Age
    40
    Posts
    5,944

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    As far as attendance, the actual players were half of the problem. Winning was the rest.
    Nah, I'm still going to say that winning is the whole problem and the players were the excuse to stay away.

    Hell, when the Jail Blazers were within' mins of going to the NBA Finals....I didn't see the Rose Garden any less empty then what it was when they sold out for years and years. Seemed like the Blazers became a local embarrasment when the wins were replaced with losses.
    ...Still "flying casual"
    @roaminggnome74

  17. #17
    Member Isaac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Chicago
    Age
    26
    Posts
    3,150

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    Another reason I want to see a lot more Ike is that he can really get to the foul line. With our defense fouling as often as it does we need a guy like Ike that can help balance it out.

  18. #18
    DIET COKE! Trader Joe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Troll Hunting
    Age
    26
    Posts
    31,720

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Nah, I'm still going to say that winning is the whole problem and the players were the excuse to stay away.

    Hell, when the Jail Blazers were within' mins of going to the NBA Finals....I didn't see the Rose Garden any less empty then what it was when they sold out for years and years. Seemed like the Blazers became a local embarrasment when the wins were replaced with losses.
    QFT.

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
    momentarygodsblog.com https://twitter.com/momentarygods

  19. #19
    Member andreialta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Pleasanton
    Age
    25
    Posts
    528

    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    to quote Steve Smith from the Atlanta game while he was broadcasting

    "I give Ike A for effort but C's and D's for production"

    lol
    [SIGPIC]Dun Dun shooting form![/SIGPIC]

  20. #20
    Member tdubb03's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Crawfordsville, IN
    Age
    30
    Posts
    721

    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    The salary cap problems it has presented us with aside, I'm much, much happier with the trade now than I was 9 months ago or so. I was in the "Larry's an idiot camp" back then. I still don't think he's savvy enough to handle the business aspects as well as Donnie, but there's no questioning his talent evaluations (other than that European guy).

    Jax's perimeter defense is what I miss the most though. By far. I understand after what happened the team had to be gutted. Doesn't change the fact that as a player I love Jackson though. Sure his shot selection was questionable, but whose isn't in today's basketball?

  21. #21
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Downtown baby
    Posts
    12,635

    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Call me when a player that we got in the trade gets into trouble, then you may have a point.
    No, I have a point right now.

    You make the trade to solve those problems. That trade didn't solve those problems. Therefore it failed.

    I have a flat front tire. I buy a new tire and put it on the back. This new tire is not flat, and in fact it's perfectly good. Did this process fix my problem? Has it been mostly successful? Not at all, I still have the flat front tire problem. Replacing the rear tire was at best a waste of time. Had it caused new problems it would have been a monster failure, both failing to fix the original problem and creating new problems too.

    The trade did not end or even slow down the bad press, and in fact it appears to have accelerated the attendance issues thanks to the fold-up job to end last season.

  22. #22
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,776

    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    No, I have a point right now.

    You make the trade to solve those problems. That trade didn't solve those problems. Therefore it failed.

    I have a flat front tire. I buy a new tire and put it on the back. This new tire is not flat, and in fact it's perfectly good. Did this process fix my problem? Has it been mostly successful? Not at all, I still have the flat front tire problem. Replacing the rear tire was at best a waste of time. Had it caused new problems it would have been a monster failure, both failing to fix the original problem and creating new problems too.

    The trade did not end or even slow down the bad press, and in fact it appears to have accelerated the attendance issues thanks to the fold-up job to end last season.

    Yes, your analogy works but so does this.

    I go to a car accident. I have a victim who is having arterial bleeding from an open laceration to the left forarm. However this same victim also has a tension pneumothorax of his left lung (look it up) and has massive internal bleeding from a ruptured spleen.

    Now let's say I stop the bleeding from the laceration with direct pressure and an ice pack and I even go so far as to decompress his pneumothorax with a 14 g angio.

    Have I saved this victims life if I stop there?

    Obviously the answer is no, he is still bleeding from the spleen and will die without surgical intervention.

    However by prioritizing his injurys and my treatments thereof have I effectively given him a better chance to live? Absolutely.

    The flaw with using your tire analogy is the fact that you assume that the front tire being flat was the only problem. However upon further inspection you have found that your entire drive shaft is broken and oh yea your brakes are down to the metal.

    Now changing your front tire may seem like the thing to do and in fact you do have to do that, however there are several other things that have to occur as well.

    What I am trying to say and have been trying to tell you for a long while now is that you keep having this misguided notion that the fans were only upset with Steven Jackson and wanted him gone.

    Yes, no doubt they wanted him gone, however just because he was gone does not mean they were going to just flock back to the field house.

    Management spent about 3 years of complete and total idiocy in the P.R. with that team and it will take at least that long to clean it up.

    Many of the fairweather fans (yes we can call them that because we here on the digest are hardcore) won't return until the Pacers make a deep playoff run.

    Does that mean that the Pacers still didn't have to move some of the players? No.

    The biggest problem that this team had locally was the fact that it had more than one knucklehead at a time.

    Any team and town can survive one knucklehead. A team with a very very very strong management and player leadership might be able to handle two.

    However in our case we had one certifiable loon in Artest, a hot head in Jackson, a moper in Jamaal, a coach who didn't seem to have any control and worst of all a management that seemed to be an enabler.

    I don't know many city's that are going to stand up and cheer for that unless they are perinial title winners.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  23. #23
    Member Alabama-Redneck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lake Guntersville, Alabama
    Age
    73
    Posts
    1,716

    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I don't know many city's that are going to stand up and cheer for that unless they are perinial title winners.
    How about the Knicks ?


  24. #24
    It Might Be a Soft J JayRedd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Age
    34
    Posts
    12,158

    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    Quote Originally Posted by Phildog View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    If Dun Dun were more aggressive, I have to think he'd be close to an All-Star.
    And if a cat was a dog it would bark.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I disagree with this. I think this trade was based around the Pacers calling the Warriors to gauge their interest in Al, since they had been the other team in the running before he came here. I think it started with Al for Ike and both players had contracts/personalities that needed to go and those got swapped as well.

    Obviously all speculation, but I think Larry and Donnie decided Al needed to go which just happened to open the door for Jack to be moved.
    Disagree with this. I still believe it started with us looking for a taker for Jack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    "Did we say we'd watch if you got rid of Jackson? No, we didn't mean that, we meant that if you got Garnett and Reggie came out of retirement and the team went 17-3 to start the year that THEN we'd show up.
    Why do you keep insisting this? Nobody ever said that. No one ever promised to show up if Stephen Jackson was traded. Sure they didn't like him, but it wasn't anywhere close to the ultimatum situation you continually bring up when you complain about attendance. A better generalization of fan sentiment would be something like "I hate these players. And they suck. Fix it." Well, the team still isn't markedly better enough for casual teams to notice and instead of disliking all the players (now it's only some), they just simply don't know who these players are. So instead of the old situation, we're now at a point with fans where it's something similar to: "Who are these guys. They sorta suck. Fix it."

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Clearly by now it should be obvious that I'm extremely bitter about local fan support for any of the sports teams.
    Clearly. And we're starting to add extremely irrational.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Yes, your analogy works but so does this.

    I go to a car accident. I have a victim who is having arterial bleeding from an open laceration to the left forarm. However this same victim also has a tension pneumothorax of his left lung (look it up) and has massive internal bleeding from a ruptured spleen.

    Now let's say I stop the bleeding from the laceration with direct pressure and an ice pack and I even go so far as to decompress his pneumothorax with a 14 g angio.

    Have I saved this victims life if I stop there?

    Obviously the answer is no, he is still bleeding from the spleen and will die without surgical intervention.

    However by prioritizing his injurys and my treatments thereof have I effectively given him a better chance to live? Absolutely.

    The flaw with using your tire analogy is the fact that you assume that the front tire being flat was the only problem. However upon further inspection you have found that your entire drive shaft is broken and oh yea your brakes are down to the metal.

    Now changing your front tire may seem like the thing to do and in fact you do have to do that, however there are several other things that have to occur as well.

    What I am trying to say and have been trying to tell you for a long while now is that you keep having this misguided notion that the fans were only upset with Steven Jackson and wanted him gone.

    Yes, no doubt they wanted him gone, however just because he was gone does not mean they were going to just flock back to the field house.

    Management spent about 3 years of complete and total idiocy in the P.R. with that team and it will take at least that long to clean it up.

    Many of the fairweather fans (yes we can call them that because we here on the digest are hardcore) won't return until the Pacers make a deep playoff run.

    Does that mean that the Pacers still didn't have to move some of the players? No.

    The biggest problem that this team had locally was the fact that it had more than one knucklehead at a time.

    Any team and town can survive one knucklehead. A team with a very very very strong management and player leadership might be able to handle two.

    However in our case we had one certifiable loon in Artest, a hot head in Jackson, a moper in Jamaal, a coach who didn't seem to have any control and worst of all a management that seemed to be an enabler.

    I don't know many city's that are going to stand up and cheer for that unless they are perinial title winners.
    But since Peck put my argument much better than I ever could, I'll only add this: Winner, winner...Chicken dinner.
    Last edited by JayRedd; 12-29-2007 at 02:28 PM.
    Read my Pacers blog:
    8points9seconds.com

    Follow my twitter:

    @8pts9secs


  25. #25
    Member BoomBaby33's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    On The Westside
    Posts
    783
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: The trade almost one year later

    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I disagree with this. I think this trade was based around the Pacers calling the Warriors to gauge their interest in Al, since they had been the other team in the running before he came here. I think it started with Al for Ike and both players had contracts/personalities that needed to go and those got swapped as well.

    Obviously all speculation, but I think Larry and Donnie decided Al needed to go which just happened to open the door for Jack to be moved.
    So your telling me that you think the Pacers were ready to give up on Al 30 games into the season after forfeiting a #1 pick to get him back. No way. If they were convinced he wouldn't work in RC's offense with Jack and JO, then RC's head would have rolled first.

    Jack was the main reason the trade went down, and it worked with the Warriors because they still wanted Al after losing out on him in the off season, and that was reason the trade worked with GS. Al and Ike were afterthoughts for Jack for DunDun.
    Last edited by BoomBaby33; 12-29-2007 at 07:29 PM.

Similar Threads

  1. t kinsey cut by the grizz...trade?
    By gph in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 12-19-2007, 03:21 PM
  2. Random Trade #2
    By DaSMASH in forum Trade Proposals
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 11-29-2007, 06:43 PM
  3. Random Trade #3 with Chicago
    By DaSMASH in forum Trade Proposals
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-29-2007, 05:33 PM
  4. Marbury/JO deal
    By OakMoses in forum Trade Proposals
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 11-16-2007, 02:07 AM
  5. Hollinger's "All Break Out" and "All-Decline" Teams
    By JayRedd in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 11-15-2007, 03:17 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •