LOL @ the realization of the rebuilding process. Some of you just don't get it.
If the Pacers make any trades during this season, it better be a deal made with a long-term focus and not a deal made with the idea of improving this team by 5-10 wins. There is no realistic trade out there that will make the Pacers a legit factor in the East this season. We've got a .500 team that will likely sneak into the playoffs. There is some young talent that can continue to be developed (Williams, Granger).
How about JO for Sean Williams and filler? I've been pushing for that throughout the season since our trade talks with the Lakers fell through.
Actually I think we should we should trade Shawne and Ike for Kobe....makes as much sense as most of the posts here.
we really do need a trade. a brilliant exit strategy, exactly
for what it's worth, i was blindsided by the brad miller situation too. maybe we really didn't want to keep brad but if then we should have moved him earlier. hope it doesn't come to that again.
It works on trade checker. Would LA do this?
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Come on, are you kidding?
Bynum is into "For Durant or Horford" range. Struggling vet at max deal paired with struggling prospect and struggling, injury-prone PG with thug rep (fair or not) is miles below that range.
JO/Tins might get you something like Artest/Bibby at best (salaries don't match).
I mean if a Detlef for Herb Williams trade doesn't pop up, we're in trouble.
Damon Jones is not great at basketball anymore
By Kelly Dwyer
Thursday, Dec 27, 2007 3:10 pm EST
Cavs coach Mike Brown has his issues coaching offense; I think we can all agree on that. Somehow he's turned a team featuring the most potent offensive force of his (and, perhaps, any) generation, a center with post-up and perimeter skills to spare, and a shoot-first power forward into one of the drearier offensive lineups in the NBA. Even throwing chuckers like Daniel Gibson and Sasha Pavlovic into the mix hasn't helped, Brown's plays never seem to reveal themselves, and the Cavs are worse off because of it.
But the man is right in not playing Damon Jones that much, mainly for the reason detailed in the headline above. Damon wants to either play for the Cavs, or be traded to a team that will play him, but something's getting in the way of that: there's little left in Damon's legs that's enough to make up for his horrible defensive shortcomings, in spite of what Jones will tell you.
Which is a shame, because for years before Damon threw himself into the hearts and minds of NBA fans around the globe as a member of the Miami Heat, we were big fans of his game. A minor league retreated, DJ bounced around with several teams before taking advantage of a long playoff run with the Heat in 2004-05, and grabbing a healthy free agent deal with Cleveland that following summer. The man had skills, he modified his game to fit whatever team was employing him that season, and he was honestly worth more minutes than he got in just about every stop.
Jones started to get consistent minutes as a Dallas Maverick in 1999-00, after being called up from the CBA. In his first game as a Mav, playing in a jersey without a name on the back of it, Jones hit for 13 points and three assists off the bench in a win over Chicago.
From there he ended up in Vancouver (proving he could work the point off the bench), Detroit (proving he could work the point off the bench for a team that didn't suck), Sacramento (working as a shoot-first chucker for a team that needed bench scoring), Milwaukee (somehow leading the league in assist ratio: 42 percent of the possessions he used up ended up with an assist for DJ, a mark that matches Steve Nash's percentage this year), the Heat (you saw it), and now the Cavs. Throw in pre-Maverick engagements with the Warriors, Nets, and Celtics, and it's obvious that this man's been around. He deserves to be heard.
But he doesn't deserve minutes, because he's 31, and can't really play anymore. Damon's three-point shooting mark of 39.5 percent is right in line with his career average, but he's having a harder time getting those shots off, the assists are down while the turnovers are up, and his defense is pretty peg-leggy.
Cleveland might trade him to another team this February, only to watch as he gives his new team 12 fourth-quarter points in his first game while the TNT crew drones on about how the Cavs could still use him; but he'll be right back on the end of the bench by the time the season ends.
It's a shame, but he's had a great run. No need to ruin it with an inglorious ending, Damon, though we suspect he's not done talking.
This is the darkest timeline.
Honestly I don't think that's on the table anymore either, not with that team winning games.
Get them headed to .500, get Odom carping about playing with Kobe and get Crittenton making them feel good about letting Farmar go (or ask for Crittenton instead) and then you've got it. That was the summer situation I think, but now that's gone.
I'm not even sure I'd like that deal, but I've resigned myself to the fact that salary cut is the next stage and playoffs are out of the picture. The thing is it's still early, they could easily be a .500 playoff team yet. It just doesn't appear headed that way now.
In the summer I didn't like the LA deals because I wasn't ready for them to surrender totally. Looks like they might have gone ahead and done it anyway.
I think the more realistic expectations on a JO trade might be more in line with the Cavs sending Snow, Marshall and Damon Jones for him.
I think we will need to look at this realistically. How about this:
JO/Granger (or Swill, Dunleavy) to LA for Odom/Brown/Farmar/LA 1st round pick
We get cap room next year, a good up and coming PG and a legit position 4 player for uptempo east, and future cap room. Trade makes this year crap, but better future with picks and youth.
After this, do a sceond trade with anyone willing to take Murphy and Tins for cap fodder. Someone will get googly eyed with an experienced PG or a shooting frontcourt player that may "put them over the top" for a pick or two. Additional cap space in the future and or picks.
It gives us future opportunity to land big time players to replace a Reggie type player.
With the salary cap and luxury tax these days, GMs have to exercise a lot of restraint. Tinsley and Murphy is about what, $17M a year salary combined (and escalating). No matter how googly eyed they get, financial reality will usually bring them back to 20/20 sight.
Teams can and will look to cheaper alternatives than that.
We need some good early picks or to somehow free up a lot of cap space so we have the chance to inject some A grade talent into this team.
I'd rather blow up the team to give a chance of contending in 5 years rather than continuing on in the mediocrity of the last few seasons.
trading with teams out of the lottery range is a bad move for rebuilding. With the way we are playing and a move for someone elses lotto pick we could get some good young talent in here, i don't want any part of anything coming out of LA or PHNX anymore, good riddance.
YAY ... my first thread I have been able to post in since I'm a new poster...
I am a huge pacers fan... have been since I was a kid...
that being said...
I have a few things I wanna say regarding some of our players... I am only gonna talk about 2 right now , more will come later , but I feel these 2 must be talked about and complained about at this time...
The first player I wanna talk about is Travis Diener
He really is a good player...
He is VERY low on Turnovers commited , has a nice 3 , and can shoot well .. if given the floortime..
Thing that totally blows my mind .. is that , all I've been reading here is how we should trade Diener , and how he sucks, blah blah blah..
Let me ask you... how would YOU play if you hit the floor in only 10% of the games the Pacers have had this year... you only played 1 to 6 minutes (6 being probably the max) .. and the other 90% you didn't even play..???
I think it is a CROCK , that J.O.B. does this to Diener..
A few games back... Diener goes out and hit 11 points in what was it ? less than a few minutes? and had a perfect fg% on his shots that night...
How does J.O.B. reward him?? he benches him the next game.. THEN with Tinsley out ... he starts Andre Owens .... TOTAL slap in the face.. in my opinion... and yet Diener still has yet to get any significant minutes (that is if JOB even plays him at all) ...
with owens playing , I would think JOB would let Diener be his backup and play at least 20 to 25 minutes, but NOOOO he dont even play him or only gives him the last few minutes.... total CRAP
It's really getting old...
I truly believe that Diener could be another Stever Kerr / Jason Kidd .. if given the chance... TD is gonna end up being yet another Pacers player who's talent is squandered on favortism ..IMO
I have tried to like the guy ... I really have... Now granted , I will give him credit where credit is due... he has been trying a bit more this season than in the past...
He has played some really good games , but half of them real stinkers.
But my problem with him is that he is NOT a good decision maker on the court..
He turns the ball over WAY too much , is a ballhog at times , dribbles WAY TOO MUCH .. and shoots too many 3's considering his 3pa isnt very good (I will give him credit for hitting a few when we needed it though)..
He doesnt play defense worth a crap .. ya he stalks the lanes , and is good at stealing the ball at times , but his D is horrible.. He tries too hard at times , like he is a superstar , and ends up shooting a horrible percentage , instead of doing his job as a pointguard , by distributing the ball , setting up plays , and only score when necessary , or he has a good shot , and is hot..
Honestly I would be happy if he only scored 10 to 15 points a game , but had 10 + assists at the very least ...
instead.. we have a shooting machine (with a low shot percentage), who turns the ball over quite a bit , and thinks he is better than he has shown.. (playing 30 to 40 minutes a game i might add)
It seems every other time both Tinsley and O'Neal are on the court , their offense seems to revert back to the Tinsley-O'Neal show .. same old ineffective 2 man show ..
Something has to give... This team isn't gonna flourish in JOB's uptempo offense as long as it keeps going back to "old faithful"..
As long as these 2 are both on the court , I personally don't see us getting much better ..
I like O'Neal , but he is starting to wear thin on me ..
I think it was Bob Kravitz that said it best , He said ...
.... "As long as Tinsley is our pointguard , this team will never win a championship"
and honestly must say I agree....
Last edited by Kemo; 01-03-2008 at 05:19 AM.
I , for the life of me cant understand why O'brian , hasnt played the crap out of T.D. at least shared time between him and Owens.. to see what happens... instead.. he plays owens for 40 minutes a game .. its just doeesnt make sense... I dont understand why he also plays the starters.. an extreme amt of minutes... and give DNP-CD's to most of the bench.. i just dont get it....
I personally don't like Andre Owens half as much as I like Diener ... to me , Owens is just a small step above Orien Green ..
I really wish we hadn't traded Saras .. That guy was/is amazing when he played for Maccabi Tel Aviv...
Carlisle screwed that guys head up... barely playing him , and trying to make him a shooting guard.. when clearly.. his specialty was to run a team as point .... in which given the minutes at point... I think we would have been quite happy with him at an uptempo offense...
But ya , back on T.D. , I really wish J.O.B would give him a chance .. I'd like to see Shawn Williams play more minutes as well ..
Last edited by Kemo; 01-03-2008 at 08:41 AM.
I agree with you on Jasikevicius. He would have flourished as a leading PG in this offense, escpecially without JO.
Too bad he was included in the trade to get rid of Jackson!
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"I truly believe that Diener could be another Stever Kerr / Jason Kidd .. "
Hmm. Steve Kerr divided by Jason Kidd. A great role player divided by a great all around player...well, the greats cancel out of course, so what does role player divided by all around player equal? Bench warmer is what I come up with. Yea, that probably roughly describes Travis Diener's ceiling.