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Thread: Quietly and without fanfare

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Quietly and without fanfare

    Troy Murphy has regained the starting 5 spot, or 4 spot depending on your point of view.

    Since such a big deal was made about Jeff regaining his starters spot I thought somebody should point out that Troy has now started several games in a row and is listed as the starter tonight. Jeff is not injured at the moment, enough to keep him out of the starting lineup anyway.

    Late the Murphy bashing begin.


    Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh don't anybody tell Anthem. We'll let him continue to believe that Foster will be the starter.


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    Default Re: Quietly and without fanfare

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Troy Murphy has regained the starting 5 spot, or 4 spot depending on your point of view.
    I know it's just semantics and a pet peeve, but when Jermaine and Troy are on the floor at the same time, Jermaine is the guy playing center. I have no clue as to how anyone could logically call Troy the center.

    Make a list of things a center does, a list of things Jermaine does and a list of things Troy does and anyone with a brain would conclude that Jermaine is far closer to being a center.

    It's like saying Oberto or Robert Horry is the center when they're on the floor with Duncan. Tim Duncan hasn't played anything but center for the Spurs since 2003. I understand there are things pertaining to the all-star ballot when listing him as a PF, but the guy has been the Spurs' center since 2003. That's as plain as day.

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    Default Re: Quietly and without fanfare

    Whenever Murphy and JO are on the floor it's a sure bet that JO plays at Center and Murphy at PF. The reason for this is obvious: JO's a much better defender and Troy Murphy doesn't like playing underneath the basket.

    If Foster rotates in to sub for Murphy, JO slides over to PF. On the other hand, if Ike rotates in JO may remain at Center or he might slide to PF depending on the matchups on the floor. Regardless, I think JO has played more Center this year than PF, but he has certainly filled in at both positions.

    As to why Murphy is once again starting over Foster, that much should be pretty apparent, too. Because of his ability to knock down 3pters, Murphy spreads the defense alot more than Foster. However, I think I get where Peck's coming from.

    Foster and JO play off each other very well and as much as I'd like to see start at Center, he's not a scoring Center. As such, his lack of offensive firepower allows he man to shag off him and bring help defense against JO. Every now and then, we've seen Foster fool folk and knock down a mid-range jumper. He's been given the go-ahead to take shots, but he's still showing hesitation out there and that's what makes him an offensive liability at times. Still, opposing teams have to respect Foster for his ability to distribute the ball and gobble up rebounds. To that, I certainly give Foster credit. For once, though, I'd love to see him have one game where he scores well from the field and not get the majority of his points off gimme tips and layups.

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    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Quietly and without fanfare

    Murphy represents precisely what does not work in the playoffs. That is, he completely lacks defensive skills.

    You can go over Foster, but not easily through him or by him.

    You can go through JO, but not easily over him or by him.

    You can go through Murphy, over him or by him easily.

    As long as Murphy is starting and getting big minutes, you can forget about going very far in the playoffs. It's and impossibility.

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Quietly and without fanfare

    Murphy on the year, -23.
    Murphy in the 5 games prior to Minny, +47

    So yes, he's been hot. It's also the definition of ABOUT TIME. A +47 and still well in the red.

    Credit due thought, he's the top +/- guy in that 5 game stretch and Foster is only +12 in those same games.

    (also note, Granger +43, JO +39, both nice turnarounds too)

    He shot 36% from 3, 47% from 2 in that period. 6.6 REB, 1.8 STL+BLK Not great but solid.
    Much of this for Troy was in the 3 games of TOR, MIA, NYK. In each of those games he had a clear impact point.

    TOR - Shot horribly but had 10 boards and 4 STL+BLK
    MIA - Shot horribly but had 9 boards and 3 S+B
    NYK - 5-8 from 3, nuff said. Throw in 9 boards too.

    But back to the Jeff vs Troy overall thing. Troy has 4 games of double digit rebounds and a 6.6 average. Jeff has 9 and the 8.9 average. Troy had 5 assists vs PHI, but so did Jeff. Jeff had less minutes in the MIA-NYK games and still matched his 9 rebound effort.

    IMO this might be an effort by JOB to get some depth and composure in the bench by moving Jeff there because honestly no one in their right and fair mind would suggest that Troy was even close to defending at Jeff's level, and we all know that JOB loves that. Given that Troy was starting despite a 3pt number that is poor without the one 5-8 game in these recent games (starting before that night), I just don't see much that would say to JOB "I got to get Troy out there", other than chemistry issues with the bench.

    Given the jump in Granger's +/- too, maybe there is something to getting them on the court together. I don't know. Maybe it helps space the defenders across all minutes rather than having Jeff, Danny and JO playing so much together.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 12-22-2007 at 05:23 PM.

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    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Quietly and without fanfare

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh don't anybody tell Anthem. We'll let him continue to believe that Foster will be the starter.
    Oh, he will be. Murphy got the spot back while Foster was injured, and Foster's back's still flaring up (note the low minutes last night). Once Foster's healthy again, Murph will be back on the bench.

    But he's been playing well recently. Despite the upswing on his shot, I'd still like him a lot more if he only shot the 3 in desperation. He's got a nice touch around the basket and he's much more mobile with the weight off. If he'd think of himself as an interior PF, he'd be a much better player.

    Still not better than JO, Foster, or Ike, but sometimes better than Shawne. And much closer to being worth his contract.
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    Default Re: Quietly and without fanfare

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Murphy on the year, -23.
    Murphy in the 5 games prior to Minny, +47

    So yes, he's been hot. It's also the definition of ABOUT TIME. A +47 and still well in the red.

    Credit due thought, he's the top +/- guy in that 5 game stretch and Foster is only +12 in those same games.

    (also note, Granger +43, JO +39, both nice turnarounds too)

    He shot 36% from 3, 47% from 2 in that period. 6.6 REB, 1.8 STL+BLK Not great but solid.
    Much of this for Troy was in the 3 games of TOR, MIA, NYK. In each of those games he had a clear impact point.

    TOR - Shot horribly but had 10 boards and 4 STL+BLK
    MIA - Shot horribly but had 9 boards and 3 S+B
    NYK - 5-8 from 3, nuff said. Throw in 9 boards too.

    But back to the Jeff vs Troy overall thing. Troy has 4 games of double digit rebounds and a 6.6 average. Jeff has 9 and the 8.9 average. Troy had 5 assists vs PHI, but so did Jeff. Jeff had less minutes in the MIA-NYK games and still matched his 9 rebound effort.

    IMO this might be an effort by JOB to get some depth and composure in the bench by moving Jeff there because honestly no one in their right and fair mind would suggest that Troy was even close to defending at Jeff's level, and we all know that JOB loves that. Given that Troy was starting despite a 3pt number that is poor without the one 5-8 game in these recent games (starting before that night), I just don't see much that would say to JOB "I got to get Troy out there", other than chemistry issues with the bench.

    Given the jump in Granger's +/- too, maybe there is something to getting them on the court together. I don't know. Maybe it helps space the defenders across all minutes rather than having Jeff, Danny and JO playing so much together.
    Please, no more +/- stats. They're as close to worthless as can be. I BEG of you all. Stop already. Think about the children.

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    Default Re: Quietly and without fanfare


    Last edited by LoneGranger33; 12-22-2007 at 06:24 PM.

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    Default Re: Quietly and without fanfare

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Troy Murphy has regained the starting 5 spot, or 4 spot depending on your point of view.
    But the real question is, is Troy Murphy half-decent or half-empty?

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    Default Re: Quietly and without fanfare

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    Please, no more +/- stats. They're as close to worthless as can be. I BEG of you all. Stop already. Think about the children.
    Pacers 12 man +/- vs Washington: +8
    I don't know, that doesn't seem all that worthless.

    Now you explain to me how valuable all of Dun's points were in the Minnesota game. I think I've found a worthless stat, PPG.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Quietly and without fanfare

    My guess is the only reason Murphy is starting is because Jeff was injured.

    But also the coahcing staff might realize that it is better for all concerned to keep Jeff's minutes below 30.

    Plus we know OB wants a shooting power forward

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    Default Re: Quietly and without fanfare

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    Please, no more +/- stats. They're as close to worthless as can be. I BEG of you all. Stop already. Think about the children.
    I second that notion. With a resounding "Please Already!".

    +/- is based on who your on the floor with at that particular time and the chemistry you have with those particular players. Also, amazingly , whether you win the game or not . You look at the box scores (its on yahoo box scores now for some reason), and the team that wins has mostly all (+) players, the team that loses has mostly all (-) players. Imagine that. Its simple mathematics.

    Its a useless stat.

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    Default Re: Quietly and without fanfare

    I don't want a center whose best offensive move is jacking up 3 balls.

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    Default Re: Quietly and without fanfare

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    My guess is the only reason Murphy is starting is because Jeff was injured.

    But also the coahcing staff might realize that it is better for all concerned to keep Jeff's minutes below 30.

    Plus we know OB wants a shooting power forward

    I really don't see how Shawne can't fill that role. He started one game at power forward and had 20 and 10. JOB keeps saying we are too deep at the wing spot for shawne to get PT but what about murphy's minutes... good god, I thought he played terrible for the most part last night.
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    Default Re: Quietly and without fanfare

    Quote Originally Posted by arenn View Post
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    I don't want a center whose best offensive move is jacking up 3 balls.
    Agreed.
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    Default Re: Quietly and without fanfare

    Quote Originally Posted by BoomBaby33 View Post
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    I second that notion. With a resounding "Please Already!".

    +/- is based on who your on the floor with at that particular time and the chemistry you have with those particular players. Also, amazingly , whether you win the game or not . You look at the box scores (its on yahoo box scores now for some reason), and the team that wins has mostly all (+) players, the team that loses has mostly all (-) players. Imagine that. Its simple mathematics.

    Its a useless stat.
    hmm...this is suspect logic, though. I think the reason why some people enjoy +/- stats - and more so two-man +/- and five-man +/- is to see why the team won with those combinations. I think it's an attempt to quantify team chemistry. I think most of your complaints are about individual +/- stats, not pairs or five-man lineups. I think you should definitely give those stats a chance - they show interesting trends that usually just confirm what we know.

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    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Quietly and without fanfare

    Quote Originally Posted by BoomBaby33 View Post
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    +/- is based on who your on the floor with at that particular time and the chemistry you have with those particular players.
    exactly. and you don't think this info is useful ?

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom View Post
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    hmm...this is suspect logic, though. I think the reason why some people enjoy +/- stats - and more so two-man +/- and five-man +/- is to see why the team won with those combinations. I think it's an attempt to quantify team chemistry. I think most of your complaints are about individual +/- stats, not pairs or five-man lineups. I think you should definitely give those stats a chance - they show interesting trends that usually just confirm what we know.
    i agree. the 5-man +/- clearly shows which groups have the best chemistry. and the players who appear in many good 5-man groups will tend to have high individual +/- as well.

    put in another way, the +/- shows the individual's contribution to the victory (or loss). so it shouldn't be surprising that the winning team will have more +'s, in fact it's expected. after all, as seth likes to say, the game is one big +/- anyway

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    Default Re: Quietly and without fanfare

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    exactly. and you don't think this info is useful ?



    i agree. the 5-man +/- clearly shows which groups have the best chemistry. and the players who appear in many good 5-man groups will tend to have high individual +/- as well.

    put in another way, the +/- shows the individual's contribution to the victory (or loss). so it shouldn't be surprising that the winning team will have more +'s, in fact it's expected. after all, as seth likes to say, the game is one big +/- anyway
    Not on an individual player analysis basis. There are too many variables.

    WM and rexnom, I admit, it is worth its weight from a 5 player standpoint for 48 minutes, as Seth pointed out himself. We were +8 against Washington. Thats the only +/- stat I really care about. Oh yeah, and basic team chemistry!

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Quietly and without fanfare

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Agreed.
    Co-signed too.

    I really like Troy's effort, I do. He certainly has been a big contributor to some wins as well. I just think Jeff adds more.

    I posted in the Toronto report that Troy was major factor in the loss due to his defense. It was Troy that let Bosh walk to the rim and draw the 4th foul on JO, sitting him early. After that Toronto had a string of weakly contested attacks to the rim, some scores, some fouls, some dishes back out. When JO returned he INSTANTLY stopped that, denying several shots at the rim with changed shots rather than outright box score blocks. He can't do that from the bench because another player was too weak.

    That's not a stat, the "let man blow past me, rotated slow, bit a cheap shoulder fake, cut off passing lane late" stat. But it shows up in the +/- and in the final results.

    The fact is that the defensive end is poorly reported by standard stats, thus a guy like Troy can get something of a pass if he shoots marginally well. Honestly Dun and Ike have both had similar issues, and Danny at times (more in a team way, he's pretty good athletically speaking). Dun's team defense, transition play and of course all-around offense do make up for his issues, much more than with the other players.

    Tins is out front so it draws notice, but these other players have the same issues. To me that means that you can't just be okay on offense, you need to be as brilliant as you are making the other team look.

    Jeff doesn't need that because like JO he does get over to help, he does keep guys out of space and he does have the foot speed to deny some lanes. It doesn't show up that JO doesn't get into foul trouble when Jeff plays too, not without some serious digging at least. But that as much as RPG should factor into Jeff's playing. This team is trying to win at BOTH ENDS of the court. Right now Jeff's offensive contribution is better than Troy's defensive output.


    I do agree with whomever mentioned that his return is slowed by injury and is probably part of the reason for his own slight slump and less PT.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 12-24-2007 at 02:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Quietly and without fanfare

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Agreed.
    I dunno, I kinda miss Big Smooth...

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    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Quietly and without fanfare

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    I dunno, I kinda miss Big Smooth...
    sam could defend the paint, make great passes, not to mention the little things like setting screens...

    if troy could be as "smooth" as sam then we'd all like him a lot better too, i guess.

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    It is ka Thankee sai Major Cold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Quietly and without fanfare

    Let me remind ourselves that how a player practices dictates how much PT they get. This could easily help us understand why contract year players (Rush and Harrison) are getting PT in lue (or loo) of "future Pacer back bones" (Williams and Diogu).

    I really think that Jeff has a nagging injury and with Murph getting healthy this may be a constant discussion here. Frontcourt players in this system will have nagging injuries I don't care what anybody says. When Ike comes back fully he will have to earn his keep in this lineup.

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