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Thread: The Big Plus-Minus thread

  1. #1
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default The Big Plus-Minus thread

    Okay, I've been talking about getting this done for some time, and finally I'm fully caught up on the data (which will last about 3 days probably thanks to the holidays).

    It's not a debate thread in theory, though like the schedule thread there is plenty of room for it. However I'm really not looking for posts like "stats lie" and "plus-minus is a sham". We get it, you don't like numbers or these particular numbers. The thread title should have been the warning to stay away if it's not your thing.

    What the thread WILL be, at least from my part, is a game by game listing of the +/-, occassionally the running totals or perhaps 5-10 game trends, and blurbs about the top and bottom 5 man groups in +/- and minutes for that game. Around the 20 game mark I also started noting when 5 man groups were brand new for the year, meaning they'd never played together this season.

    Why do it? Well with the Saras debates people would go to the totals and ignore the fact that he started high and spent the rest of the year trending downward. It was pretty tough to find trends unless you were grabbing from 82G or Pacers.com on a daily basis, and even then there would be days without proper updates and then 3 games added to the total at the same time.

    Also 82Games typically doesn't show anything but the top 20 5-man groups, and sometimes I like to know more. Finally I could start to pull those 2, 3 and 4-man packages at some point, however I haven't done that yet and might not get to it.


    Disclaimer - I'm doing this in Excel and by hand mostly. I've already compared to Pacers.com and 82Games and we don't quite match up. They don't match each other either. I do check the minutes totals and make sure per game they look right, and generally speaking the totals are extremely close. Someone has errors/differences, and per the comparison of those 2 sites it's not just me.

    One other note, I do +/- with PENDING FTAs put on the guy that was on court when the foul was committed, both for and against the Pacers. That might create some slight differences.


    Okay, I'm going to do the game posts in order and it will take awhile. But to get it started with a taste of something relevent I'll put up the Knicks game version first, then copy it in its proper place later.

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    Default Re: The Big Plus-Minus thread

    Game 25 - vs Knicks

    27 Granger
    22 Foster
    19 Murphy
    18 Tinsley
    18 Dunleavy

    16 Daniels
    11 O'Neal
    2 Harrison
    0 Rush

    (low minutes)
    1 Williams
    1 Owens


    Top three 5-man groups
    (all 5-man listed by alpha, not position)

    6 in 1:45 play
    Quis-Dun-Granger-Murph-JO
    5 in 2:15 play
    Quis-Dun-Foster-Granger-Murph
    5 in 1:30 play
    Dun-Foster-Granger-Murph-Tins
    5 in 4:45 play
    Dun-Foster-Granger-JO-Tins

    Not so much, worst 5-mans
    -4 in 0:45 play
    Dun-Foster-JO-Rush-Tins
    -2 in 2:45 play
    Quis-Dun-Granger-Hulk-Murph
    -1 in 5:00 play
    Quis-Dun-Foster-Hulk-Rush

    When -1 is one of the worst groups on the night, you probably did okay.


    Big minute groups
    17:00 (0)
    Dun-Granger-JO-Murph-Tins
    5:00 (-1)
    Quis-Dun-Foster-Hulk-Rush
    4:45 (5)
    Dun-Foster-Granger-JO-Tins


    Who the F is that? New 5-mans for the game
    Hulk-Murph-Owens-Rush-Williams


    Interesting notes
    Starting at the 5:45 mark left in the 3rd the Pacers didn't lose or tie a single 5-man group the rest of the way (8 total groups).

    The 10 minutes played by the starters to open the game might be the most minutes any group has played straight together all year. Certainly it was a top 5 outing and probably the most in a first half at least. I'm going to check when I get a chance.

  3. #3
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Big Plus-Minus thread

    Has this combo ever been on the floor together? Murph, JO, Tins, Dun, and Daniels?

    It looks like a good offensive unit. Only two good defenders in that group though.

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    Default Re: The Big Plus-Minus thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    Has this combo ever been on the floor together? Murph, JO, Tins, Dun, and Daniels?

    It looks like a good offensive unit. Only two good defenders in that group though.

    the place to find it is here:

    http://www.82games.com/0708/0708IND2.HTM


    As of today, that lineup isn't on the chart. It might have made it onto the floor for fewer than 9 minutes if at all.
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

  5. #5
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Big Plus-Minus thread

    Hold on. Like I said, I've got them all if they've played at least 9 seconds, barring my own typos. And this is one reason I started doing this Putnum, to get farther into the +/- stuff than was easily available.

    They have played together. 1 minute (rounded of course), -2. Not sure which game(s). I could dig but unless it's critical...probably not going to happen.

    BTW, I have 45 different 5 man groups that feature Daniels-Dunleavy. The most minutes is the Quis-Dun-Jeff-JO-Tins version (19 min, +17), though the 2nd best +/- is +11 in 10 minutes by Quis-Dun-Tins-Danny-Hulk.

    I'm gonna get off my butt now and crank out these per game posts.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 12-20-2007 at 09:04 PM.

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    Default Re: The Big Plus-Minus thread

    Game 1 - vs Washington
    W 119-110 (OT)

    28 Harrison (w00t)
    9 Dunleavy
    8 Daniels
    6 Tinsley
    5 Owens

    5 Sims
    3 Diener
    2 Granger
    2 Rush

    -11 Foster
    -12 Diogu


    Top three 5-man groups
    (all 5-man listed by alpha, not position)

    9 in 4:30 play
    Dun-Foster-Granger-Hulk-Tins
    9 in 4:00 play
    Ike-Dun-Granger-Hulk-Tins
    5 in 8:45 play
    Quis-Dun-Granger-Hulk-Tins


    Not so much, worst 5-mans
    -19 in 8:15 play
    Ike-Dun-Foster-Granger-Tins
    -6 in 2:45 play
    Quis-Ike-Dun-Foster-Tins
    -3 in 1:30 play
    Dun-Granger-Hulk-Sims-Tins


    Big minute groups
    8:45 (5)
    Quis-Dun-Granger-Hulk-Tins
    8:15 (-19)
    Ike-Dun-Foster-Granger-Tins
    4:30 (9)
    Dun-Foster-Granger-Hulk-Tins


    Who the F is that? New 5-mans for the game
    What? They're ALL new in this game.


    Interesting notes
    Hulk was in all 3 big winners, including all of the +9 OT group that won the game. It's easy to forget what a huge impact he had early on. His number for this game is nuts.

    Mike and Ike special...maybe not. The 2 worst groups featured them and Ike had a rough night in total as well.

    Needless to say, that -19 group hasn't seen much action since that night. I have them at 10 minutes roughly, though they're +1 since that first game in the limited minutes.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: The Big Plus-Minus thread

    Game 2 - vs Miami
    W 87-85

    13 Granger
    10 Tinsley
    7 Dunleavy
    7 JO
    4 Rush
    2 Rush

    -1 Harrison
    -4 Foster
    -6 Daniels
    -7 Diener
    -12 Diogu

    Limited minutes
    -1 Owens


    Top three 5-man groups
    (all 5-man listed by alpha, not position)

    6 in 0:45 play
    Quis-Dun-Granger-Hulk-Tins
    6 in 0:45 play
    Dun-Granger-Hulk-JO-Tins
    5 in 1:00 play
    Dun-Granger-JO-Rush-Tins


    Not so much, worst 5-mans
    -9 in 2:15 play
    Dun-Foster-Granger-Hulk-Tins
    -4 in 3:15 play
    Quis-Diener-Ike-JO-Rush
    -3 in 4:15 play
    Quis-Ike-Dun-Hulk-Tins


    Big minute groups
    10:45 (4)
    Dun-Foster-Granger-JO-Tins
    6:15 (-2)
    Ike-Dun-Granger-Hulk-Tins
    4:15 (-3)
    Quis-Ike-Dun-Hulk-Tins



    Interesting notes
    From best to worst. The top 5 man from the previous game was the worst 5 man group in this game.

    The debut of the biggest minutes 5-man was this game, and on cue they led the game in 5-man minutes here too.

    The Pacers went on a -7 run with the Dun-Jeff-DG-Hulk-Tins group late in the 4th and were on the verge of losing. Then Rush came in and they won the next 3 5-mans and pulled out the 2 point win.

    The Pacers had 2 5-man +6 bursts in 45 seconds each. One to end the 2nd, another mid-3rd.

  8. #8
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Big Plus-Minus thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    the place to find it is here:

    http://www.82games.com/0708/0708IND2.HTM


    As of today, that lineup isn't on the chart. It might have made it onto the floor for fewer than 9 minutes if at all.

    Well . . . I thought I had answered this earlier today. I must not have clicked on submit.

    Anyway, what I said in the post I thought I submitted was I had read Seth's first two posts in this thread and it got me curious about five man groups, so I had gone to 82 games.com and looked around.

    There I had decided the Murph, JO, Tins, Dun, and Daniels group looked pretty good. So then I went to NBA.com and looked at the five man groups. That didn't tell me anything either so I come back here and asked Seth. And then I thanked you for your reply.

    In the meantime I had considered that group defensively and decided yes it was a good one offensively, but a bad one defensively, and probably the reason it's only been used one minute as Seth said.

    And no Seth it's not critical to know what game. I've already decided it's not that good of a group.

    What I had been doing at 82 games is looking at players to see what position they were the most effective at. I then tried to find the best lineup that way and came up with the aforementioned group.

    Thanks guys!

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    Default Re: The Big Plus-Minus thread

    Game 3 - vs Memphis
    W 121-111

    20 JO
    14 Foster
    13 Dunleavy
    8 Tinsley
    6 Granger

    3 Daniels
    2 Rush
    2 Diener

    -4 Harrison
    -5 Owens
    -11 Diogu


    Top three 5-man groups
    (Switching to rough position order for easier reading)

    9 in 11:45 play
    Tins-Dun-Granger-JO-Jeff
    6 in 3:30 play
    Tins-Dun-Quis-JO-Jeff
    4 in 1:00 play
    Tins-Rush-Dun-JO-Hulk


    Not so much, worst 5-mans
    -5 in 1:00 play
    Tins-Owens-Quis-Granger-Ike
    -4 in 1:30 play
    Tins-Dun-Granger-Ike-Hulk
    -3 in 1:15 play
    Diener-Rush-DG-Ike-Hulk


    Big minute groups
    11:45 (9)
    Tins-Dun-Granger-JO-Jeff
    4:30 (0)
    Tins-Owens-Quis-Dun-JO
    4:00 (1)
    Diener-Rush-Quis-Granger-Ike



    Interesting notes
    Yesh, Ike goes for his 3rd straight deep in the red. Not hard to see how his season total is so bad at this point. I'm excited for his return, but then I see this stuff and I wonder. -11 in a game they won easily?

    Tins-Dun-JO seems to be part of the magic formula. Not really a surprise at this point.

    A ton of small man rotations in this game and last. Owens at SG, Granger at PF, Ike at C, that's small.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 12-20-2007 at 10:25 PM.

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    Default Re: The Big Plus-Minus thread

    What I had been doing at 82 games is looking at players to see what position they were the most effective at. I then tried to find the best lineup that way and came up with the aforementioned group.
    That's another angle, and starting with the Memphis game I started putting the 5 man groups in order by POS. The problem with this is interpretation sometimes, especially for all these games I've done long since watching them.

    I think my next project with this will be 3 man totals, though probably not per game.

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    Default Re: The Big Plus-Minus thread

    Game 4 - vs Clippers
    L 89-104

    9 Williams
    3 Diener
    2 Harrison

    -5 Murphy
    -9 Daniels
    -10 Foster
    -17 Granger
    -17 Dunleavy
    -18 JO
    -22 Tinsley

    Limited minutes
    5 Owens
    4 Rush


    Top three 5-man groups
    (Switching to rough position order for easier reading)

    6 in 2:00 play
    Diener-Granger-Williams-Murph-Hulk
    5 in 1:45 play
    Tins-Dun-Granger-Murphy-Hulk
    4 in 3:30 play
    Owens-Rush-Quis-Williams-Hulk


    Not so much, worst 5-mans
    -10 in 19:15 play
    Tins-Dun-Granger-JO-Foster
    -9 in 3:15 play
    Tins-Dun-Granger-JO-Murphy
    -7 in 3:30 play
    Diener-Quis-Granger-Murphy-Hulk


    Big minute groups
    19:15 (-10)
    Tins-Dun-Granger-JO-Foster
    3:30 (-7)
    Diener-Quis-Granger-Murphy-Hulk
    3:00 (4)
    Owens-Rush-Quis-Williams-Hulk



    Interesting notes
    4 starters at -17 or worse. Ya ain't winnin that game, that's for sure.

    Huge difference in minutes played between the main 5 and any other variation. But the most the group played at one time was 6:30.

    There was a semi-garbage bump to end the game, but also note that to end the 1st quarter the 5 man of Diener-Granger-Williams-Murph-Hulk ran off a +6 in 2 minutes, giving the Pacers a lead that they held till the 3rd.

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    Default Re: The Big Plus-Minus thread

    Game 5 - vs Charlote
    L 87-96

    15 Foster
    3 Dunleavy

    -2 Rush
    -3 Tinsley
    -6 Diener
    -7 Williams
    -8 Murphy

    -11 Granger
    -21 JO

    Limited minutes
    -5 Harrison


    Top three 5-man groups
    (Switching to rough position order for easier reading)

    6 in 2:30 play
    Tins-Dun-Granger-Murphy-Foster
    4 in 2:15 play
    Diener-Dun-Williams-Murphy-Foster
    3 in 12:15 play
    Tins-Dun-Granger-JO-Foster
    3 in 1:00 play
    Tins-Rush-Granger-Williams-JO

    Not so much, worst 5-mans
    -7 in 4:30 play
    Tins-Dun-Granger-JO-Murphy
    -5 in 1:00 play
    Tins-Granger-Williams-JO-Murphy
    -4 in 5:00 play
    Tins-Rush-Granger-Williams-JO
    -4 in 4:30 play
    Diener-Granger-Williams-Murphy-Hulk
    -4 in 1:30 play
    Diener-Dun-Granger-JO-Foster
    -4 in 1:00 play
    Diener-Rush-Williams-JO-Murphy


    Big minute groups
    12:15 (3)
    Tins-Dun-Granger-JO-Foster
    5:00 (-4)
    Tins-Rush-Granger-Williams-JO
    4:30 (-7)
    Tins-Dun-Granger-JO-Murphy
    4:30 (-4)
    Diener-Granger-Williams-Murphy-Hulk


    Interesting notes
    The 2nd bad outing for JO, this was when we were noticing he wasn't right and was hurting more than he was helping.

    Despite JO's bad numbers the real blame has to go on the bench. The team started both the 1st and 3rd strong. +6 to start the game in the first 7 minutes, then +7 in roughly the same span to start the 3rd. The rest? Horrible.

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    Default Re: The Big Plus-Minus thread

    Game 6 - vs Denver
    L 106-113

    11 Rush
    4 Foster
    3 Williams
    0 Tinsley

    -5 Daniels
    -7 JO
    -8 Dunleavy
    -12 Murphy
    -20 Granger

    Limited minutes
    1 Harrison
    -2 Diener


    Top three 5-man groups
    (Switching to rough position order for easier reading)

    6 in 2:30 play
    Tins-Rush-Dun-JO-Murphy
    6 in 1:15 play
    Tins-Dun-Williams-JO-Foster
    5 in 2:00 play
    Diener-Rush-Dun-JO-Foster


    Not so much, worst 5-mans
    -13 in 16:15 play
    Tins-Dun-Granger-JO-Murphy
    -7 in 2:00 play
    Quis-Dun-Granger-Murphy-Foster
    -7 in 1:30 play
    Diener-Dun-Williams-JO-Foster



    Big minute groups
    16:15 (-13)
    Tins-Dun-Granger-JO-Murphy
    3:45 (-3)
    Tins-Granger-Williams-JO-Foster
    2:45 many groups



    Interesting notes
    -20 from Granger. Ugh. And he was with the starters that ran off a +7 to open the game.

    The regular starters had seemed to include Foster. That 5 got 1:30 and went +3. The new version featuring Troy goes 16 minutes for -13. This includes having them finish the final 2:30 of the game with a -6, effectively losing the game. Why?

    The Pacers didn't win a 5 man in the entire 4th, add in the final 5 man in the 3rd and it was 6 straight groups that lost or tied. Jump the +3 group and you find a -7 group in the mid-3rd. Before that you have 2 groups going +1 each and then you have the starters for the 2nd half going -8.

    To recap, that's a -8, -7, -6, -4, -3, -2 with the occassional +1 or 0 to stop the bleeding. That's how you lose an 18 point lead. 25 if you go back to the 2nd. Pretty much nothing worked after the mid-2nd.

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    Default Re: The Big Plus-Minus thread

    Game 7 - vs Boston
    L 86-101

    1 Granger
    0 Dunleavy
    -1 JO
    -3 Tinsley

    -9 Foster
    -11 Murphy
    -13 Rush
    -13 Diener
    -14 Williams

    Limited minutes
    -4 Owens
    -6 Harrison


    Top three 5-man groups
    4 in 1:15 play
    Diener-Dun-Granger-JO-Murphy
    3 in 1:00 play
    Tins-Dun-Granger-Murphy-Foster
    2, a few not worth mentioning



    Worst 5-mans
    -8 in 4:15 play
    Diener-Rush-Williams-Murphy-Foster
    -3 in 0:30 play
    Tins-Granger-Williams-Murphy-Foster
    -3 in 1:00 play
    Diener-Owens-Rush-Graham-Harrison
    -3 in 0:30 play

    Tins-Granger-Williams-Murphy-Foster


    Big minute groups
    9:15 (-1)
    Tins-Dun-Granger-JO-Murphy
    4:45 (-1)
    Tins-Rush-Granger-Williams-JO
    4:15 (-8)
    Diener-Rush-Williams-Murphy-Foster


    Interesting notes
    Man, looking back how could JOB expect that Diener-Rush-Williams-Troy lineup to work out. At this point Diener's numbers were already looking pretty bad.

    On that note, this game was close till Diener hit the court. First they lost a 4 point lead when one of his 5 mans went -6. Then while it was still close in the 2nd, Pacers down 1, Diener came on and all 4 of his 5 man groups proceeded to lose, for another total of -6. Thanks for playing.

    Diener-Owens-Rush-Graham-Harrison? If anything says garbage time it's that lineup. I assume Sims was waived by this point or something.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 12-21-2007 at 12:22 AM.

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    Default Re: The Big Plus-Minus thread

    Game 8 - vs Washington
    L 90-103

    6 Rush (10 min)
    0 JO
    -3 Tinsley
    -4 Daniels
    -4 Diener (9 min)

    -8 Williams
    -10 Dunleavy
    -16 Foster
    -18 Granger

    Limited minutes
    -8 Harrison


    Top three 5-man groups
    7 in 5:30 play
    Quis-Rush-Dunleavy-Williams-JO
    3 in 9:45 play
    Tins-Quis-Granger-JO-Foster
    2 in 2:00 play
    Quis-Granger-Williams-JO-Foster


    Worst 5-mans
    -6 in 3:00 play
    Quis-Granger-Williams-Foster-Harrison
    -5 in 0:45 play
    Quis-Dun-Granger-Williams-Foster
    -5 in 9:00 play
    Tins-Dun-Granger-JO-Foster


    Big minute groups
    9:45 (3)
    Tins-Quis-Granger-JO-Foster
    9:00 (-5)
    Tins-Dun-Granger-JO-Foster
    5:30 (7)
    Quis-Rush-Dunleavy-Williams-JO


    Interesting notes
    The Granger-Williams combo made a rare appearance in a top 5-man effort. For the most part early on that pair has spelled trouble.

    The combo of Quis-Rush-Dun-Williams-JO picked up a token +7 in the mid 4th with the team down 18. While it did get the game to 11 with 3:15 still on the clock, it really was too little too late. Granger returned for Rush and they went 0. Then Hulk came in for JO and that 5 ended with a -2.

    No Tins after the 8:45 mark. And I have him for only 9:45 in the 2nd half total (thus the 23 minutes on the game). Anyone remember why this was, if there was even a reason?

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    Default Re: The Big Plus-Minus thread

    Game 9 - vs Toronto
    L 101-110

    0 JO
    0 Rush
    -1 Tinsley
    -2 Foster
    -3 Dunleavy

    -5 Granger
    -5 Murphy
    -8 Diener
    -12 Williams

    Limited minutes
    -9 Harrison


    Top three 5-man groups
    5 in 9:00 play
    Tins-Dun-Granger-JO-Murphy
    5 in 1:15 play
    Diener-Rush-Granger-Murphy-Foster



    Worst 5-mans
    -5 in 3:15 play
    Diener-Granger-Williams-Murphy-Harrison
    -4 in 0:15 play
    Diener-Dun-Granger-JO-Murphy
    -3 in 3:00 play
    Tins-Dun-Granger-Williams-JO
    -3 in 1:15 play
    Diener-Granger-Williams-Murphy-Foster


    Big minute groups
    16:00 (1)
    Tins-Dun-Granger-JO-Foster
    9:00 (5)
    Tins-Dun-Granger-JO-Murphy
    4:00 (-2)
    Tins-Rush-Dun-Murphy-Foster


    Interesting notes
    A few games ago I talked about JO having this string of bad games, but really in the last few he's been one of the top +/- guys.

    Seriously, no more Diener-Granger-Williams lineups. That's not a lot of strong decision making or ball handling. Did I mention not pairing Danny and Shawne?

    Another game and Diener shows up to finish it out. Again, did Tins foul out, was he gassed? A 6 pt game with :45 to play, Diener comes in and they go -4.

    I will say this, JOB did get his top 5 group (starters with Foster over Troy) in the game a couple of times where they didn't come through. For the game they were in the black, but they went -6 to start the 3rd and went -2 late in the 4th (just before Diener returned)

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    Default Re: The Big Plus-Minus thread

    Game 10 - vs Utah
    W 117 - 97

    32 Williams
    23 Foster
    22 Tinsley
    20 JO
    19 Dunleavy

    8 Rush
    2 Daniels
    1 Harrison

    -6 Murphy
    -11 Granger

    Limited minutes
    -4 Owens
    -6 Diener


    Top three 5-man groups
    23 in 9:00 play
    Tins-Dun-Williams-JO-Foster
    7 in 2:30 play
    Tins-Dun-Granger-Foster-Harrison
    5 in 3:00 play
    Quis-Rush-Dun-Williams-Murphy


    Worst 5-mans
    -5 in 9:15 play
    Tins-Dun-Granger-JO-Murphy
    -5 in 1:00 play
    Tins-Dun-Granger-Murphy-Harrison
    -4 in 0:30 play
    Quis-Dun-Granger-Murphy-Foster

    Big minute groups
    9:15 (-5)
    Tins-Dun-Granger-JO-Murphy
    9:00 (23)
    Tins-Dun-Williams-JO-Foster
    3:00 (5)
    Quis-Rush-Dun-Williams-Murphy


    Interesting notes
    -11 in a 20 pt win. Come on Granger, that's Ike territory.

    +23 in 9 minutes, obviously the first time anything close to that has happened on the year. More of that please. By the way, the 5 that did this is the top starters but with Shawne for Granger instead of Troy for Foster. Looking at Troy and Danny's +/- on the year is this really a surprise?

    More on that +23 group. They only went to it twice, in both cases it was Williams and Foster as the first guys off the bench, joining the starters for Danny and Troy as dual subs. They went +8 in the first and +15 in the 3rd. Those followed a +3 and a -10 by the group with Danny/Troy. Nuff said.

  18. #18
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Big Plus-Minus thread

    Game 11 - vs Lakers
    L 114 - 134

    6 Harrison
    -1 Dunleavy
    -4 Rush
    -5 Foster

    -10 Murphy
    -12 Daniels
    -15 Tinsley
    -16 Williams
    -16 Granger
    -24 JO

    Limited minutes
    -1 Diener
    -2 Sims


    Top three 5-man groups
    6 in 4:15 play
    Diener-Rush-Williams-Murphy-Hulk
    4 in 4:30 play
    Tins-Dun-Granger-Murphy-Hulk
    4 in 1:30 play
    Tins-Quis-Dun-Foster-Hulk


    Worst 5-mans
    -11 in 9:15 play
    Tins-Dun-Granger-JO-Murphy
    -6 in 1:00 play
    Tins-Rush-Granger-Williams-JO
    -5 in 1:30 play
    Tins-Granger-Williams-JO-Murphy
    -5 in 1:45 play
    Tins-Quis-Granger-Foster-Hulk

    Big minute groups
    8:30 (-11)
    Tins-Dun-Granger-JO-Murphy
    5:30 (3)
    Tins-Granger-Williams-JO-Foster
    4:30 (4)
    Tins-Dun-Granger-Murphy-Harrison


    Interesting notes
    This is the proof case for the +/- stat. We all remember this game as Bynum blowing up JO. Now look at JO's number, a horrid -24. That suggests that the stat sees a lot more than some give credit for.

    Following that, look at Hulk's numbers, including being a part of all 3 top 5-man groups. Clearly he was the better play for this game, whether JO was hurting or not.

    That crap pair of Danny and Shawne showed up again in 2 of the worst 5-mans. But go figure when they made it into a decent +3 group that played big minutes together. Maybe Tins-JO-Jeff helped a bit.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: The Big Plus-Minus thread

    Game 12 - vs New Orleans
    W 105 - 93

    16 Harrison
    15 Granger
    8 Tinsley
    7 Dunleavy

    5 Daniels
    5 Murphy
    5 Williams
    3 Foster

    Limited minutes
    -4 Rush


    Top three 5-man groups
    7 in 3:45 play
    Tins-Granger-Williams-Murphy-Hulk
    4 in 3:00 play
    Tins-Dun-Granger-Foster-Hulk
    4 in 2:45 play
    Tins-Rush-Dun-Foster-Hulk


    Worst 5-mans
    -5 in 0:30 play
    Tins-Rush-Dun-Murphy-Foster
    -4 in 1:00 play
    Tins-Granger-Williams-Murphy-Foster


    Big minute groups
    19:45 (0)
    Tins-Dun-Granger-Murphy-Foster
    3:45 (7)
    Tins-Granger-Williams-Murphy-Hulk
    3:15 (3)
    Tins-Dun-Granger-Murphy-Hulk


    Interesting notes
    Well another Williams-Granger squad does well. Turning the corner? Or maybe not, also put up one of the worst 5-mans in the game.

    Not since game 4 vs the Clips have we seen 1 group play so much, and so much more than any other group. This time it was in a winning effort.

    Hulk backs up what we saw vs the Lakers. He's earning PT, or so it would seem. He's got 3 strong +/- outings on the year, and a ton of low minutes played games.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: The Big Plus-Minus thread

    Game 13 - vs Dallas
    W 111 - 107

    7 Murphy
    6 Tinsley
    5 Dunleavy
    5 Williams

    1 Granger
    1 Harrison
    -1 Foster
    -1 Daniels

    Limited minutes
    -1 Rush
    -2 Diener


    Top three 5-man groups
    9 in 3:00 play
    Diener-Quis-Williams-Murphy-Hulk
    5 in 19:15 play
    Tins-Dun-Granger-Murphy-Foster



    Worst 5-mans
    -5 in 0:45 play
    Diener-Quis-Granger-Murphy-Foster
    -4 in 2:45 play
    Tins-Quis-Williams-Foster-Hulk
    -4 in 2:30 play
    Diener-Dun-Williams-Murphy-Hulk

    Big minute groups
    19:15 (5)
    Tins-Dun-Granger-Murphy-Foster
    7:45 (1)
    Tins-Quis-Granger-Murphy-Foster
    3:30 (1)
    Tins-Granger-Williams-Murphy-Foster


    Interesting notes
    2 strong games from Harrison and it's back to 11 minutes. 4 fouls, but wouldn't you want to ride him right into his 6 fouls, especially considering he had 3 blocks in the game.

    Diener had a weird game, part of the best and worst efforts. The difference in groups was Quis for Dun, not something you'd exactly expect. Some of it is probably PG ball handling I guess.

    One thing that started happening right after JO sat with injury, JOB started playing groups together for a lot more minutes. 2 games in a row with one 5 man getting nearly 20 minutes together. The bench needed to be shortened. So it wasn't JO being in or out in retrospect, but stabilizing the rotation that started turning things around.

    The 4 man of Tins-Granger-Murphy-Foster accounted for all 3 of the top minutes groups, and just among those 3 played 30:30 of the game. Again, stability.

  21. #21

    Default Re: The Big Plus-Minus thread

    Thanks for taking the time to do this, very interesting. I like the +/- stat and JOB said he likes it too. I made a similar more primitive post awhile back noting how awful Ike had been, and how well Harrison was doing. We'll see what happens when Ike gets back, but I really don't understand the love fest with him. Many consider him to be untouchable but want to trade Harrison for a slight upgrade over Diener. You have got to be kidding me. Based on performance so far Ike is the one who should be shipped out. Even though it was only 3 games, his stats jumped out in a very conclusive manner. Only big guy to be in the minus for the first 3 games (every one of his games so far).

  22. #22
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Big Plus-Minus thread

    12 more to go, plus a new game tonight. I just burned out, but I'll try to finish tonight.

    After that it will space more and I'll toss out things like 10 game subtotals. Actually I think I'll do that after I post game 15 (5-15 totals).

    Right now it's an archive where anyone can at least run the individual +/- numbers for a given set of games (DEC, in wins, when JO plays, etc) with them each posted separately. I really wanted that option myself the last few years.


    Yeah, I like Ike but those numbers are troubling. Given his size on defense and his problems with passing the ball you can see how he would be a problem. I mean Danny is running the same as he did last year, and at some point you must think there is something to that.

    Like Ike, there is a reason that Granger is so far in the red while the rest of the starters typically are way above him. It stops being "bad luck/situations" and starts being a trend.


    On the other side you see some of Hulk's games and realize (if you didn't just from seeing him play) that when he can stay on the court he can be a major factor. His best +/- games are ones that when you watched you thought great game from him tonight.


    JOB said Shawne was getting crunched out by numbers, and Ike is part of that. I agree with you, I'd move Ike now to address the BU PG situation while you still can. But then maybe the word is out when Bill Simmons even questions just how good Ike is ever going to be.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: The Big Plus-Minus thread

    Seth, good work. I think that you should send a quick email to "Ask the Pacers" with a link to this post

    I went through your +/- Stats, pulled all of the Top 5-Man groups and tallied how many times they appear in the list:

    Dunleavy - 25
    Tinsley - 24
    Granger - 22
    Foster - 16
    Harrison - 16

    JONeal - 14
    Murphy - 14
    Rush - 10
    Shawne - 10
    Marquis - 9
    Deiner - 7
    Ike - 1
    Owens 1

    Keep in mind that this is just strict tally and does not take into account the # of minutes or games they played. There has been 28 different 5 man combinations.

    The only combinations that has been used more then once that has appeared in your Top 5-Man group is:

    Dunleavy-Tinsley-Granger-Murphy-Foster ( used 3 times )
    Dunleavy-Tinsley-Granger-JONeal-Foster ( used 2 times )
    Dunleavy-Tinsley-Granger-Harrison-Marquis ( used 2 times )
    Dunleavy-Tinsley-Granger-Harrison-Foster ( used 2 times )
    Dunleavy-Murphy-Granger-Harrison-Foster ( used 2 times
    )

    At least based off of what we see above.....based off of the +/- stat....Dunleavy, Tinsley, Granger, Harrison and Foster is the best 5-man combo that we have.
    Last edited by CableKC; 12-21-2007 at 04:16 PM.
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  24. #24

    Default Re: The Big Plus-Minus thread

    Simmons called Ike out? When was that and what did he say?

  25. #25
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    Default Re: The Big Plus-Minus thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Yeah, I like Ike but those numbers are troubling. Given his size on defense and his problems with passing the ball you can see how he would be a problem. I mean Danny is running the same as he did last year, and at some point you must think there is something to that.
    That's a pretty small sample to be making judgments on. Let's see him in the game a little more first.
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