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Thread: Kravitz: Colts players go out also, I'm shocked

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Kravitz: Colts players go out also, I'm shocked

    This is shocking news to me, I figured everyone of the Colts players were home and sound asleep by 11:00 PM. Some even go to Cloud 9, on WEST 38th street.

    Seriously though, thereare a lot of really good points in here, some things I hadn't considered

    http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...plate=printart



    Bob Kravitz
    Colts know danger lurks, can relate to Tinsley case
    December 16, 2007


    As a middle-aged white suburbanite whose idea of the night life involves a Bennigan's and a movie at a local theater, the issues surrounding Indiana Pacers point guard Jamaal Tinsley's latest nocturnal close call are a little bit foreign to me.

    What I do understand, though, is when you're in your 20s and 30s, and you're single, and you've got a little bit of cash in your pocket, you want to go out at night and have a good time with your friends.

    So I went into the Colts' locker room this week and asked several of their players -- all black players, because they could best relate to the Tinsley situation -- how they handle the double-edged sword of fame when they go to the clubs.

    They, too, go to 8 Seconds Saloon. They, too, go to Cloud 9. They, however, don't seem to get into the same kind of trouble. Sure, the Colts have had their scrapes over the years, and this is not another one of those Colts versus Pacers comparison columns, but the truth is, all of them go out, and the Pacers seem to have issues far more readily than the Colts.

    So what do the Colts do right?

    "We kind of have a buddy system,'' linebacker Gary Brackett said. "When we go out, there's a bunch of us, and we all have each other's backs. Even the bathroom, nobody goes alone.

    "When you go out, you can't have the mind-set that everybody there is happy for your success. You can't think that you're invincible. And you can't think that you're above the law. No matter where you go, whether it's Indianapolis or somewhere else, you're going to run into guys who don't have as much to live for as you do, and they can cause problems.''

    At this point, nobody's completely sure how things devolved late Saturday night into Sunday morning. Apparently there was an argument in the Cloud 9 parking lot between Tinsley's group and another group about their cars, after which Tinsley's group left to return to his condo Downtown.

    Next thing you knew, Downtown Indy was turning into the Old West.

    While Tinsley has thus far been cast as the victim -- and when you're dodging bullets, you're going to get that benefit of the doubt -- there's also the fact this is the third time he's been involved in a nightclub incident.

    Tinsley mentioned the other day this happens to him only in Indianapolis, but if that's true, how come Colts players, who like the night life as much as any Pacers players, don't routinely end up on our front page?

    "It's how you present yourself,'' said Colts running back Kenton Keith. He was not referring to Tinsley directly or indirectly, just answering a general question. "If you act all arrogant, nobody likes that, but if you're regular, you're cool with people, it's fine, but you want to make sure you have a safe outlet. You never know when people might be trying to set you up. When you go out with a bunch of other people, at least if something happens, you have witnesses.''

    The moment the Tinsley story broke, the immediate reaction was, "What's he doing at a nightclub on West 38th at that hour?''

    There were two inferences: First, what was he doing out so late when he had practice the next morning? I don't know about you, but when I was 29, five hours of sleep was enough.
    The second inference was that West 38th is in the middle of a dicey neighborhood. And that's true, but Cloud 9, this particular club, is one of, if not the, top nightclubs serving a mostly black clientele in this city. That said, I am told you have to walk through a metal detector and get a pat-down before being allowed entry.

    When I asked Brackett about athletes restricting themselves to clubs that don't have metal detectors, he looked at me quizzically and said, "If you want to go to a black club in this city, you're going through a metal detector.''

    Seriously?

    "Seriously,'' he said.

    In a Star story Thursday, it was noted how former Pacer Reggie Miller employed security people when he went out on the town. But even that's not always a deterrent. If anything, the presence of some muscle might make things worse.

    "Maybe there's a subtle bump or something happens, it might be something you can handle easily, but security might overreact and rough somebody up,'' Brackett said. "And then it gets crazy.''

    Colts safety Bob Sanders said he doesn't want to send the wrong message by showing up with security.

    "People look at us, we have security, they're saying, 'Who does he think he is?' '' Sanders said. "Either way, it's a lose-lose situation.''

    Clearly, Tinsley has to make some lifestyle changes. In theory, he should be able to go out to a nightclub, have a few drinks, hang out with friends, and not have to feel like his life is in peril. But three times in less than a year and a half, he's found trouble -- or trouble has found him -- in the same kinds of places, in the same sets of circumstances.

    For Tinsley, there might be just one workable answer.

    Next time, make it a Blockbuster night.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Kravitz: Colts players go out also, I'm shocked

    I think that Pacers are much more visible. NFL players have helmets on their heads, and I don't think people in general know who they are if they see them on the street or in the club. NBA players however....

    -- Steve --

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    Go Colts! Shade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz: Colts players go out also, I'm shocked

    So I went into the Colts' locker room this week and asked several of their players -- all black players, because they could best relate to the Tinsley situation -- how they handle the double-edged sword of fame when they go to the clubs.


    "We kind of have a buddy system,'' linebacker Gary Brackett said. "When we go out, there's a bunch of us, and we all have each other's backs. Even the bathroom, nobody goes alone.
    Kinda like Foster and Croshere, but they still manage to find a way to get into trouble.

    For Tinsley, there might be just one workable answer.

    Next time, make it a Blockbuster night.

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    Default Re: Kravitz: Colts players go out also, I'm shocked

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    So I went into the Colts' locker room this week and asked several of their players -- all black players, because they could best relate to the Tinsley situation -- how they handle the double-edged sword of fame when they go to the clubs.

    Oh, this makes total sense.

    When white people go out, they hang out with other white people and we're all cool. But when black people hang out, they have a few bad apples, and only other black people can relate to that.

    I liked the article, but that was just wrong.

    That statement makes me think of this website:

    www.blackpeopleloveus.com

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    Default Re: Kravitz: Colts players go out also, I'm shocked

    I guess race is still an issue in Indiana?

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    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz: Colts players go out also, I'm shocked

    Quote Originally Posted by Kravitz View Post
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    Tinsley mentioned the other day this happens to him only in Indianapolis, but if that's true, how come Colts players, who like the night life as much as any Pacers players, don't routinely end up on our front page?
    Easy answer. The Colts wear helmets, and other than Payton I don't think even most Indy sports fans would recognize any of them on the street. The same fans would recognize a lot of the Pacers though. Even most thugs aren't dumb enough to just hold up anyone. They would choose someone they think has money.

    EDIT; What Pacersfan46 said.
    Last edited by Will Galen; 12-16-2007 at 11:37 AM.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz: Colts players go out also, I'm shocked

    I think there are only a couple of Colts players that people would recognize out of uniform. Manning for sure, maybe harrison, maybe Bob Sanders. Butthere are several more Pacer players that people recognize just because of the no helmet factor

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    Default Re: Kravitz: Colts players go out also, I'm shocked

    Quote Originally Posted by Kravitz article
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    "It's how you present yourself,'' said Colts running back Kenton Keith. He was not referring to Tinsley directly or indirectly, just answering a general question. "If you act all arrogant, nobody likes that, but if you're regular, you're cool with people, it's fine, but you want to make sure you have a safe outlet. You never know when people might be trying to set you up. When you go out with a bunch of other people, at least if something happens, you have witnesses.''
    While I agree with Keith here in theory...it's not even close to that simple when you're talking about NBA players.

    There is one (literally) huge point that is always lost in these silly discussions about NBA players versus NFL or MLB. Yes, NBA guys are the most recognizable because they don't wear helmets/eye black and they're running around in shorts and a t-shirt on the court.

    But much more importantly, these guys are GIANT HUMAN BEINGS. Jamaal Tinsley is pretty short for an NBA player...but dude is still 6'3". So he's taller than most people in Conseco Fieldhouse on any given night. And when he's hanging out anywhere -- a club, movie theater, grocery story, gas station, post office or volunteering at a soup kitcher -- along with guys like Stephen Jackson (6'8") and Marquis Daniels (6'6") they are going to stand out like a sore thumb. Throw in someone like Harrison, Foster or Jermaine and forget about it.

    So they are not only immediately recognizable as rich, young, black professional athletes...they are also an absolute spectacle. Seriously, how many of you have ever seen a group of four 6'8"-plus guys together in a social situation? Outside of a basketball arena, this is a very, very, very, very rare occurrence.

    So it's an entirely different discussion when you're talking about Colts. Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison, Joseph Addai and Dallas Clark can all hang out a at bar, and if they sort of keep to themselves in one corner of the club, they will, of course, be recognizable to many of the other patrons. Especially those in their general area.

    But if JO, Quis, Harrison and Danny are in one corner of a club, the people all the way on the other side of the place can literally see them towering over the heads of everyone else. And it's a spectacle. And people will come over to see such a spectacle. And drunk people coming over to see a spectacle do stupid crap. And stupid crap starts fights.

    It's different.
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    Default Re: Kravitz: Colts players go out also, I'm shocked

    Quote Originally Posted by bellisimo View Post
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    I guess race is still an issue in the world.

    Fixed.

    "Sad but truueeeee!"

  10. #10

    Default Re: Kravitz: Colts players go out also, I'm shocked

    I think you guys are strange for worrying about his comment about asking black players.

    Do those white players who go out .... go to Cloud 9? No? Then they wouldn't have any input in this situation anyway. He went after people who would have the most in common, or would most be able to relate to the situation.

    I play basketball where I'm the only white guy in the entire building and they nag me to go out with them afterwards on Saturday night. Most of these guys live at 10th and Rural, or other area's like that. I could go on about other differences between a white bar/club versus a club where I'm virtually the only white person in the building.

    Well, I'm the only white person who's aware that I'm white in that club anyway. I may dress like what people would say was someone who thinks they're black, but I don't go running around calling people the "n" word, and really actually trying to act like I am. Arg, that annoys me.

    Anyway, as far as the differences I'm keeping my trap shut. If what Kravitz said bothers you, I don't know what to say. Other than you've obviously never seen the difference with your own eyes.

    ****EDIT**** OH, and I forgot to mention, the guys that nag me to go to those clubs, you could never drag them to Broad Ripple, or Castleton to go out. They will not go. Minus one of the guys, they truly believe that they would get in more trouble for being in Broad Ripple and being black people without money, and not being college kids than they would going to a black club.

    -- Steve --
    Last edited by Pacersfan46; 12-16-2007 at 12:28 PM.

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    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz: Colts players go out also, I'm shocked

    Obviously the fact the Colts faces are covered and are not inordinately tall...so that's a factor. However, that factor is being overstated a bit here IMO. Marvin Harrison and Peyton Manning are probably as recognizable by more people in Indianapolis than Tinsley. Some of the other players are also quite recognizable. Bob Sanders, Joseph Addai and Reggie Wayne are quite recognizable. This is particularly true since MANY, MANY more in the public follow the Colts.

    So, the argument that Tinsley is a victim because he's more recognizable does have legs, but only short ones.

    A better analogy is to his own team mates.

    Tinsley is probably less recognizable than some of his 6'8" teammates who seem to keep out of trouble. Whether it's current players like Granger, Foster, Dunleavy or particularly JO, none of them are having multiple incidents at Indy clubs last time I checked. Looking back just a few years at Reggie, Derrick McKey, Jalen Rose, Brad Miller, Rik Smits, Mark Jackson, Fred Jones, James Jones...none are perfect, but none had this number of issues...... goodness gracious, hundreds of other players in the NBA don't have multiple incidents. Some do, but they are making the wrong choices if they have strings of issues like this.

    Not in the history of the franchise has there been anything like Artest, Jackson and Tinsley. You can thank each of them for bringing this franchise down.

  12. #12
    Member spazzxb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz: Colts players go out also, I'm shocked

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Obviously the fact the Colts faces are covered and are not inordinately tall...so that's a factor. However, that factor is being overstated a bit here IMO. Marvin Harrison and Peyton Manning are probably as recognizable by more people in Indianapolis than Tinsley. Some of the other players are also quite recognizable. Bob Sanders, Joseph Addai and Reggie Wayne are quite recognizable. This is particularly true since MANY, MANY more in the public follow the Colts.

    So, the argument that Tinsley is a victim because he's more recognizable does have legs, but only short ones.

    A better analogy is to his own team mates.

    Tinsley is probably less recognizable than some of his 6'8" teammates who seem to keep out of trouble. Whether it's current players like Granger, Foster, Dunleavy or particularly JO, none of them are having multiple incidents at Indy clubs last time I checked. Looking back just a few years at Reggie, Derrick McKey, Jalen Rose, Brad Miller, Rik Smits, Mark Jackson, Fred Jones, James Jones...none are perfect, but none had this number of issues...... goodness gracious, hundreds of other players in the NBA don't have multiple incidents. Some do, but they are making the wrong choices if they have strings of issues like this.

    Not in the history of the franchise has there been anything like Artest, Jackson and Tinsley. You can thank each of them for bringing this franchise down.
    since you felt it was time to take cheep shots at someone who just had a hit put out on him. I thought I would take the time to reiterate the point that part of this is do to a decline in the city of indianapollis. I grew up in small town indidana, and can say with full confidence our society is at least partially to blame. The players have screwed up but a lot of holier-than -now people in Indiana need to get there head out of there butt and look in the mirror. Also **** poor leadership, lack of jobs, and money will make alot of things bad. don't blame Tinsley for Indy becoming a more dangerous city.

    *rant over* (written by a 20 something with european anccestery)

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    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz: Colts players go out also, I'm shocked

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
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    since you felt it was time to take cheep shots at someone who just had a hit put out on him. I thought I would take the time to reiterate the point that part of this is do to a decline in the city of indianapollis. I grew up in small town indidana, and can say with full confidence our society is at least partially to blame. The players have screwed up but a lot of holier-than -now people in Indiana need to get there head out of there butt and look in the mirror. Also **** poor leadership, lack of jobs, and money will make alot of things bad. don't blame Tinsley for Indy becoming a more dangerous city.

    *rant over* (written by a 20 something with european anccestery)
    I didn't take cheep shots. I took entirely cheap shots.

    As for poor leadership, you are right. Someone acquired these guys. Now after getting smacked in the head enough times, they have gutted the talent...but I guess tearing out muscle is required to get to the cancer cells. The last bit of cancer may respond to the chemotherapy (or more specifically, an assault rifle in this case).

    In any event, you are right about the downfall of the city. It is due in part due to our culture and in part by our governmental policies. However, that does not explain these incidents when other players (Colt and Pacers) don't have the same multi-incident issues.

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    Administrator Roaming Gnome's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz: Colts players go out also, I'm shocked

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacersfan46 View Post
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    I think you guys are strange for worrying about his comment about asking black players.

    Do those white players who go out .... go to Cloud 9? No? Then they wouldn't have any input in this situation anyway. He went after people who would have the most in common, or would most be able to relate to the situation.

    I play basketball where I'm the only white guy in the entire building and they nag me to go out with them afterwards on Saturday night. Most of these guys live at 10th and Rural, or other area's like that. I could go on about other differences between a white bar/club versus a club where I'm virtually the only white person in the building.

    Well, I'm the only white person who's aware that I'm white in that club anyway. I may dress like what people would say was someone who thinks they're black, but I don't go running around calling people the "n" word, and really actually trying to act like I am. Arg, that annoys me.

    Anyway, as far as the differences I'm keeping my trap shut. If what Kravitz said bothers you, I don't know what to say. Other than you've obviously never seen the difference with your own eyes.

    ****EDIT**** OH, and I forgot to mention, the guys that nag me to go to those clubs, you could never drag them to Broad Ripple, or Castleton to go out. They will not go. Minus one of the guys, they truly believe that they would get in more trouble for being in Broad Ripple and being black people without money, and not being college kids than they would going to a black club.

    -- Steve --
    Yes, this is a man that I feel truely gets it and the cultural differences in the situation. I applaud your post 100 times!

    As for Kravitz column, good work to get another perspective on this other then the "fan reaction" the rest of the local media has been focusing on.
    ...Still "flying casual"
    @roaminggnome74

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    Default Re: Kravitz: Colts players go out also, I'm shocked

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    I didn't take cheep shots. I took entirely cheap shots.

    As for poor leadership, you are right. Someone acquired these guys. Now after getting smacked in the head enough times, they have gutted the talent...but I guess tearing out muscle is required to get to the cancer cells. The last bit of cancer may respond to the chemotherapy (or more specifically, an assault rifle in this case).

    In any event, you are right about the downfall of the city. It is due in part due to our culture and in part by our governmental policies. However, that does not explain these incidents when other players (Colt and Pacers) don't have the same multi-incident issues.

    I don't think he was talking about the leadership of the Pacers, but the leadership of the community.

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    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz: Colts players go out also, I'm shocked

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacersfan46 View Post
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    ****EDIT**** OH, and I forgot to mention, the guys that nag me to go to those clubs, you could never drag them to Broad Ripple, or Castleton to go out. They will not go. Minus one of the guys, they truly believe that they would get in more trouble for being in Broad Ripple and being black people without money, and not being college kids than they would going to a black club.

    -- Steve --
    That's too bad, but it's probably true. I'm proud of your friend who is willing to go. He is the one making a difference.

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    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz: Colts players go out also, I'm shocked

    Quote Originally Posted by mb221 View Post
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    I don't think he was talking about the leadership of the Pacers, but the leadership of the community.
    You're right. I realized that after posting. It was obviously a Freudian slip by me.

    The failed leadership in the city has been addressed with the election. However, the problems in the city of Indianapolis are not uncommon. Many other cities, for example Milwaukee, are having more problems. This is a national issue related to our trade and immigration policies.

    As for the Pacers, its debatable whether there needs to be a leadership change. I think if a poll was taken, it would be pretty split. If Bird was not so popular and/or famous, his head would be on the chopping block right now.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Kravitz: Colts players go out also, I'm shocked

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    That's too bad, but it's probably true. I'm proud of your friend who is willing to go. He is the one making a difference.
    So are you planning on making a difference by going to black clubs?
    "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

    "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

  19. #19

    Default Re: Kravitz: Colts players go out also, I'm shocked

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
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    since you felt it was time to take cheep shots at someone who just had a hit put out on him. I thought I would take the time to reiterate the point that part of this is do to a decline in the city of indianapollis. I grew up in small town indidana, and can say with full confidence our society is at least partially to blame. The players have screwed up but a lot of holier-than -now people in Indiana need to get there head out of there butt and look in the mirror. Also **** poor leadership, lack of jobs, and money will make alot of things bad. don't blame Tinsley for Indy becoming a more dangerous city.

    *rant over* (written by a 20 something with european anccestery)


    I don't mean to take a "cheep" shot or be "holier-than-now," but I count 21 spelling and punctuation errors in this post. Can anyone find more than that?
    And I won't be here to see the day
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    Default Re: Kravitz: Colts players go out also, I'm shocked

    LOL at interviewing Kenton Keith. I'm not sure I could recognize that guy without his jersey on.

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    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz: Colts players go out also, I'm shocked

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcadian View Post
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    So are you planning on making a difference by going to black clubs?
    I don't go to any clubs....not since you were probably in diapers. In the late 80's, no I did not go to black clubs. That's one of the reasons I admire that guy's friend. He should be admired for stepping out because whites are less likely to do so. JMHO.

  22. #22
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz: Colts players go out also, I'm shocked

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    I don't mean to take a "cheep" shot or be "holier-than-now," but I count 21 spelling and punctuation errors in this post. Can anyone find more than that?
    You're really good. I only found about 14 errors.

    No cheeep shot intended.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Kravitz: Colts players go out also, I'm shocked

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    I don't go to any clubs....not since you were probably in diapers. In the late 80's, no I did not go to black clubs. That's one of the reasons I admire that guy's friend. He should be admired for stepping out because whites are less likely to do so. JMHO.
    Fair enough.
    "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

    "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

  24. #24

    Default Re: Kravitz: Colts players go out also, I'm shocked

    That's actually a pretty good article, but the "black players" comment at the start could probably have been worded better. He might get in trouble.

  25. #25
    Member Evan_The_Dude's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz: Colts players go out also, I'm shocked

    I think he interviewed black players from the Colts because it's not all that likely that he'd find very many white players that have been to Cloud 9 or clubs like it that are marketed towards the black community. As a black person, I'm not at all offended by that. It's the truth.

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