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Thread: Doesn't JOB rather Contradict Himself? New Indystar Article

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    International Counter bellisimo's Avatar
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    Default Doesn't JOB rather Contradict Himself? New Indystar Article

    During the past couple of seasons, if the Indiana Pacers fell behind in a game, they stayed behind and looked ahead to the next game.

    Not so this year.

    Though not every comeback attempt is successful, the Pacers have taken on coach Jim O'Brien's personality of believing they're never out of the game, no matter the deficit.

    The Pacers, who host the Toronto Raptors tonight at Conseco Fieldhouse, have won five games in which they trailed by eight or more points this season. In two of those victories -- at Orlando last week and against Chicago on Wednesday -- they trailed by at least 15 points. They recovered from a 15-point deficit against Phoenix on Dec. 4 before losing by four.

    "We believe we have the tools to get back in the game no matter what," Pacers forward Jermaine O'Neal said. "In previous years when we struggled to score, we'd get down 15 and we'd be like we'd get the next game. Now we know we can put up 40 points in a quarter and that's the biggest thing."
    The Pacers aren't overhauling their schemes and O'Brien isn't chewing his team out during timeouts. Sometimes O'Brien encourages them to contest more shots. Other times, O'Neal, Mike Dunleavy or Jamaal Tinsley will speak up during timeouts.

    "It's the old cliche about the harder you work, the more difficult it is to surrender," O'Brien said. "These guys have worked hard. We're capable of defending at a high level and we're capable of scoring a lot of points."
    O'Neal grinned when reminded that they've shown they can easily blow a lead, too.

    The Pacers have lost three games in which they led by at least 10 points. The most noticeable loss came when they wasted a 25-point lead against Denver at the Fieldhouse on Nov. 10. The Pacers nearly lost to the Nuggets again after leading by 18 points on Nov. 27.

    "We run to score all the time," O'Neal said. "If we're going to run to score, we have to run back and play defense. We cannot score and give up buckets on the other end; that's been the thing. We feel very confident that with the way we play, as the season progresses, we're going to get a lot better."

    O'Brien doesn't believe in slowing the pace if they have a significant lead. The only time they get out of their up-tempo system is during the final three minutes of the game.

    "I've seen a lot of games lost or almost lost by going into a style that's not your style because you're trying to protect the lead," O'Brien said. "We are a running team until the three-minute mark."
    http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl.../1088/SPORTS04

    And after the 3 minute mark - what do we do? we try to protect the lead....and if we are a running team and its not our style to slow down...why do we do it with 3 minutes to go?

    I know I'm reaching...but its Friday and I have had some free time on my hands before a meeting

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    Default Re: Doesn't JOB rather Contradict Himself? New Indystar Article

    "Does he contradict himself?
    Then he contradicts himself!
    He is vast.
    He contains multitudes!"
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
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    Default Re: Doesn't JOB rather Contradict Himself? New Indystar Article

    Maybe he is saying they do that out of habit and he is trying to break them of it.

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    Huge Member heywoode's Avatar
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    Default Re: Doesn't JOB rather Contradict Himself? New Indystar Article

    bell, I don't think you're reaching at all. I agree completely. I wonder why the interviewer didn't ask him that very question. The second I read it, I thought the same thing, and not just because the thread title had me looking for a contradiction....

    We should be running until the final buzzer. We have played the running game this year and not been horrible with turnovers. As long as we practice what JO preaches about getting back on D and not giving up easy buckets, there is no reason to stop the running game....ever.

    Maybe after a few losses when we abandon the running game will be the mule kick to the head that gets him to stop changing the way they play just because it's the end of the game. As far as I'm concerned, you play the game a certain way, and as long as the clock has time on it, it's still the game. It's not a different game with a different strategy. If we were losing in the last three minutes we wouldn't be looking to play slog-ball, would we?


    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar View Post
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    Maybe he is saying they do that out of habit and he is trying to break them of it.
    Maybe that is it. It's all in how you read it, I guess. The article should have been a little more clearly written......Good point, ragnar...
    Last edited by heywoode; 12-14-2007 at 09:07 AM. Reason: ragnar is the poop



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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Doesn't JOB rather Contradict Himself? New Indystar Article

    You are correct, you're reaching

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    Default Re: Doesn't JOB rather Contradict Himself? New Indystar Article

    heywoode: bell, I don't think you're reaching at all.
    Unclebuck: You are correct, you're reaching
    gotta love the difference of opinion on this forum

  7. #7

    Default Re: Doesn't JOB rather Contradict Himself? New Indystar Article

    I think Ragnar is right. In words it looks like a contradiction but the way he spoke it was probably intended to mean "This is what we're doing, but we shouldn't be doing it." At least that's the way I read it.

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    Default Re: Doesn't JOB rather Contradict Himself? New Indystar Article

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    You are correct, you're reaching
    I didn't see a contradiction, either. The clock can be the biggest ally when you have the ball and the lead. Why wouldn't they slow down?

    I think all he's saying is that for now the scheme is to run the push tempo offense until the 3 minute mark. The guys haven't been consistent with this, yet. There is no reason to slow down at the 4 or 5 minute mark. This is the NBA, that's a ton of time.

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    Huge Member heywoode's Avatar
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    Default Re: Doesn't JOB rather Contradict Himself? New Indystar Article

    With timeouts, ONE minute is a ton of time. I understand the logic behind holding the ball to limit the other team's possessions when the clock is winding down and you have the lead. It should depend on how the flow of the game is going. If we are being successful running the ball and getting back on defense, forcing bad shots, or at least contesting shots and making them tough to earn, I see no reason to stop playing that way.

    Changing the tempo of the game and making the team adjust their style on the fly, when what they had been doing for the rest of the game had been working is too much of a detriment to overcome by milking the clock to limit opposing possessions. If the Pacers can become adept at controlling the ball and not turning it into a turnover and missed jumper-fest (which is counterproductive and plays right into the losing team's hands) then I would say I would feel more comfortable doing it.

    Is losing games while they figure out how to slow down their play worth the eventuality of being able to control the game in the final few minutes? That depends on how many games they lose and how quickly they start doing better at controlling the ball......



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    International Counter bellisimo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Doesn't JOB rather Contradict Himself? New Indystar Article

    JOB -I've seen a lot of games lost or almost lost by going into a style that's not your style because you're trying to protect the lead.
    my understanding from this is he believes its wrong to change the style you are playing during the game just to protect the lead.

    JOB - "We are a running team until the three-minute mark."
    And in this one he clearly states that we change our style of play with 3 minutes left on the clock.

    Yet in the first one he acknowledges that in many cases teams lose because of it.

    I'd say thats contradiction.

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    Default Re: Doesn't JOB rather Contradict Himself? New Indystar Article

    At the 3 minute mark or less, clock management is vital. If you are taking quick shots, you risk both missing and giving the opponent more time to recover.

    What I'm hoping happens - and I've occasionally seen flashes of it - is that the only thing that stops are immediate shots as soon as the ball handler comes across the time line. What should happen is that ball and off-the-ball movement continues, but we try for a shot in the final 6 seconds of the shot clock instead of the first 6 seconds.

    In other words, "slow down" doesn't mean stagnate, it means use more clock.
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    Default Re: Doesn't JOB rather Contradict Himself? New Indystar Article

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    At the 3 minute mark or less, clock management is vital. If you are taking quick shots, you risk both missing and giving the opponent more time to recover.

    What I'm hoping happens - and I've occasionally seen flashes of it - is that the only thing that stops are immediate shots as soon as the ball handler comes across the time line. What should happen is that ball and off-the-ball movement continues, but we try for a shot in the final 6 seconds of the shot clock instead of the first 6 seconds.

    In other words, "slow down" doesn't mean stagnate, it means use more clock.
    Exactly. I think what he means is that if you have a fast-break that's not a guaranteed bucket, you should settle down and run a half-court set instead. IMO, that's what a team should do. The Suns win games because of their excellent half-court execution.

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    Default Re: Doesn't JOB rather Contradict Himself? New Indystar Article

    Quote Originally Posted by bellisimo View Post
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    my understanding from this is he believes its wrong to change the style you are playing during the game just to protect the lead.



    And in this one he clearly states that we change our style of play with 3 minutes left on the clock.

    Yet in the first one he acknowledges that in many cases teams lose because of it.

    I'd say thats contradiction.
    Or...

    It means this has always been the game plan, but the guys have been slowing it up before the three minute mark in the fourth.

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    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Doesn't JOB rather Contradict Himself? New Indystar Article

    Three minutes is simply JOB's mark.

    Everyone on here agrees that if you're up 1 with 20 seconds to go, you "stop the running game" and hold the ball until the last second.

    And most everyone would agree with slowing it down with 30 seconds to go, a minute, etc.

    Everybody has their place. JOB's is three minutes.
    .

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    .

    .


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    Default Re: Doesn't JOB rather Contradict Himself? New Indystar Article

    heywoode: bell, I don't think you're reaching at all.

    Quote:
    Unclebuck: You are correct, you're reaching




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    Default Re: Doesn't JOB rather Contradict Himself? New Indystar Article

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    heywoode: bell, I don't think you're reaching at all.

    Quote:
    Unclebuck: You are correct, you're reaching




    "Okay. I'm with you fellers."
    Wow, it is funny how we all perceive things. I'm on the "he's reaching" side.

    When I read that quote, I was like, finally, a coach that wants to continue to attack vs. slowing it down, getting out of rhythm while watching the other team catch up! (slowing down with a lead reminds me of the "prevent (a win) defense" in football).

    Three minutes seems a bit early, but I like the attitude of attacking and growing the lead vs. protecting a lead. Personally, I'd attack to the end. I remember seeing some former Pacer we all know score 8 points in less than a minute.

    Anyway, I liked his thoughts on attacking especially after seeing Purdue get a 10 pt lead and stall the game away with 7 freaking minutes left to Mizzou just recently.

    Water

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    Default Re: Doesn't JOB rather Contradict Himself? New Indystar Article

    I always thought it to be elementary. Your up by a few field goals with the ball and enough time for a few possesions combined, milk the clock.

    Does that mean iso only? No!!!! Just wait till the shot clock is doen to 10 to run a quick flex play. If you can run out of bounds plays for a quick score, then you should be able to do it with the game clock.

    It is not that hard to fathom.

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Doesn't JOB rather Contradict Himself? New Indystar Article

    No, JOB has clearly slowed things with a decent lead late in the game. IMO the method he uses is to simply sit on the ball for 10 seconds and then run a normal "score in 5 seconds" set, rather than try to run a slower developing offense. (cold beat me to it)

    You just have to do this. Late in the game ball possession is worth more than points. If it wasn't true teams wouldn't play the foul game. You can only win a possession by 3, maybe 4 points. If you are down by 10 then you need at least 3 possessions (for both teams), and more if the other team also scores or you fail to.

    JOB isn't the only one adjusting late in games, again I cite the foul game. That's not the normal strategy by any stretch, you don't just foul every possession in the first and hope they miss FTs. Teams behind want more possessions and are adjusting their style to fit that. Because of this a running team could play right into the hands of an opponent shifting into a small ball running game.

    This means that what was working for you might actually not work that well at that point. Not just because you are protecting a lead, but because your opponent is now focused on playing that way.

    For a different look, consider a team that goes into lane jumping defense, or trapping defense. You can't beat those the same way as a normal defense. Things that were working suddenly work against you, and things that weren't available now become your best option.

    The reason teams don't play those styles is that they might not be as effective with it, perhaps you can beat them much worse by countering it with things like ball fakes (on lane jumps) or long passes for layups on HC traps.

    But the point is that if you play TO THEIR STYLE, pass right into the lane jump or dribble right into the HC trap, then they will have success. They are gambling, and that gamble has the most chance of working if you play into it. If you play it smart you will eventually expose their risks and grind them down, showing why they don't really want to play that way all the time.

    One final example, who throws deep bombs into prevent/dime defenses if you can just hand it off? Your passing game has forced them to play different. Now's the time to take advantage of THEIR adjustment.

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    Default Re: Doesn't JOB rather Contradict Himself? New Indystar Article

    Quote Originally Posted by waterjater
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    Wow, it is funny how we all perceive things. I'm on the "he's reaching" side.

    I dunno. I only quoted them because it felt like a set-up to quote "Oh Brother, Where Art Thou."
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

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    Default Re: Doesn't JOB rather Contradict Himself? New Indystar Article

    so i just got home from clubbing *its 3:40am here* and i missed out on the game...looks like we had a big lead which we lost...

    did we change the style of play? if so was it intentional? or thats what the Raptors defense allowed us?

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    Default Re: Doesn't JOB rather Contradict Himself? New Indystar Article

    Quote Originally Posted by bellisimo View Post
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    so i just got home from clubbing *its 3:40am here* and i missed out on the game...looks like we had a big lead which we lost...

    did we change the style of play? if so was it intentional? or thats what the Raptors defense allowed us?
    Might want to ask that 6'11 shooting guard out of Notre Dame who must have had his contacts switched.

    BTW, I like JOb a lot and what he's doing...but I have read several of his quotes and he tends to talk out of both sides of his mouth at times. I think he'd probably make a great psych or politician.

    Did he contradict himself this time? Yes and No...lol.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Doesn't JOB rather Contradict Himself? New Indystar Article

    JOB's words are a contradiction, but while I think only he can explain the meaning behind them, I'd like to give it a try.

    Many teams do try to change their style of play within those final 2-3 minutes. And while not exactly a 2-minute drill like in football, I do believe some basketball teams use these final few minutes to either clamp down defensively or jump on a team offensively for the win provided they are winning at that point. For teams trying to eek out a win, they usually do as the Pacers are known to do - rely on the long ball instead of driving the lanes and looking for the And1 shot opportunities. Believe me, they're always there.

    Still, I think most coaches have this philosophy of "playing not to lose" in those final few minutes as opposed to "playing to win" even if you're ahead by 20 pts. NO SURRENDER is my motto.

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    Default Re: Doesn't JOB rather Contradict Himself? New Indystar Article

    McKinnney and Ramsay at the Heat game thought they were playing to fast at the end. *shrugs*

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    Default Re: Doesn't JOB rather Contradict Himself? New Indystar Article

    Last night's game is a great example why the change of pace with 3 minutes to go screws this team up!

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