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Thread: Kravitz on Tinsley - and Vecsey with new info !!!

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Kravitz on Tinsley - and Vecsey with new info !!!

    I've been critical of him in the past, so I need to give him credit for this column.


    http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...plate=printart



    Bob Kravitz
    Kravitz: Poor choices can be fatal
    December 11, 2007


    Fine. We can all agree, staying out until 3 a.m. and later at a nightclub in a dangerous neighborhood is not the smartest thing in the world. It's especially dim considering Jamaal Tinsley, the Pacers guard at the center of this latest incident, already is facing charges for his alleged role in an earlier bar fight.

    Tinsley's on-court decision-making has improved measurably this basketball season, but off the court, he remains yet another guy who just doesn't get it.

    We can all agree: Really bad judgment. Really bad. And very nearly deadly.

    That said, I would hope we could all agree that nobody should be suspended, traded, dumped, stuck with a curfew or otherwise persecuted for the heinous crime of being in the crosshairs of some looney-toon with an assault rifle.

    That's the part that we should not forget: Based on the facts that we know -- today, this moment, always subject to change -- Tinsley and equipment manager Joe Qatato were victims.

    Did you see the photos of the Rolls Royce, the driver's side window pocked with bullet holes? Qatato is lucky he was only shot in the elbows. Tinsley is lucky he escaped without physical harm, although his already diminished reputation took another hit.

    This would be a good time to remember Stephen Jackson's role in the Club Rio fiasco. There was a rush to judgment that Jackson, who had a well-deserved reputation for being a hothead, had beaten up somebody at the bar, then fired gunshots in the parking lot. As the facts were later revealed, we learned that Jackson was essentially firing in self defense after a driver tried to run him over with his car.

    It's a dangerous thing, playing Matlock with a media pass. There was a rush to judgment in the Duke lacrosse case. There was a rush to judgment in the Sean Taylor murder.
    I've been guilty, too, too quickly assuming the worst, especially when it has involved a Pacer. The 24/7 news cycle demands instant analysis, and sometimes, the portrait ends up looking nothing like the snapshot.

    That mistake will not be repeated here.

    I will accuse Tinsley of monstrously poor judgment, something he copped to after Monday's practice, but I will not accuse him any more than that. So he was out late. Very few of us are angels in that regard. Sometimes we stay out late and do stupid things. Guilty as charged.

    The easiest thing Pacers president Larry Bird and coach Jim O'Brien could do right now is flex their muscles and make their bloodthirsty fans happy by fining, suspending or trading Tinsley. But they can't trade Tinsley considering he's signed through 2011, and they won't trade Tinsley because he's having a great season and is their only productive point guard.

    And what's he been charged with here? Being a target?

    Instead, they are going to do nothing, continue with business as usual and, if later facts reveal that Tinsley had a sinister role in all of this, that will be another story.

    It's not very satisfying, especially for a fan base that has become almost numb to these kinds of things, but the only fair way to approach this is with patience and caution.

    If Tinsley and Qatato were the victims, where's the fairness in victimizing them again?

    However this thing plays out, it's incumbent on Tinsley to finally see the light, before he loses his career or even his life. He almost got killed Sunday morning. Same with Qatato. Bad things can happen anywhere and any time, but the percentages are a whole lot higher on West 38th Street at around 3 in the morning.

    Jealousy and alcohol can be a toxic mix, one that can even kill you.

    It's still up to the athlete, though, to make the initial decision. The Colts don't get into these kinds of scrapes. The Pacers do. So it comes back to personal responsibility.
    I understand that Tinsley is guilty in the court of public opinion. For a lot of folks now, it isn't even a matter of right or wrong, whether Tinsley was the perpetrator or, as most of us currently suspect, the victim in a shooting that could have ended in a deadly fashion.
    It's another incident.

    It's another Pacers incident.

    Another brick in the wall that has been erected between the local NBA franchise -- the TrailPacers, indeed -- and their ever-diminishing, heart-sick fan base, which deserves better than this. And you thought attendance was bad now.

    Even if it turns out Tinsley was a victim here, there will be a greater victim: The Indiana Pacers.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 12-11-2007 at 09:37 AM.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz with a gem - and Vecsey has some new info!!!

    there are a couple of new pieces of information here


    http://www.nypost.com/php/pfriendly/...man_251510.htm



    TINSLEY WAS MARKED MAN
    By PETER VECSEY


    December 11, 2007 -- DECADES ago I remem ber an Odd Couple episode in which Felix and Oscar walked into a Manhattan jewelry store to find the owner gagged and tied up in the back. He told them it was the fourth time he'd been robbed.
    "Why don't you move to a better neighborhood?" one of them asked.

    "The closest good neighborhood is in Ohio."

    Today the closest good neighborhood is on the outskirts of Never Never Land.

    Today we're all susceptible to violence regardless of what hour of the day or night. Today we're all sitting targets for nut jobs, road-raging tailgaters, spurned lovers and dime-a-dozen wannabe punk gangsters looking to invade homes of the seemingly affluent and stick up athletes flaunting Benjamins, bling and rimmed-out rides.

    Sunday it was Pacer point guard Jamaal Tinsley's turn to be targeted. After attending the R Kelly concert, Jamaal, three brothers and friends, including the team's equipment manager, went back to his Indianapolis condo to watch the Floyd Mayweather fight. At 1 a.m. they went to Cloud 9, an upscale club.

    Informed a fight had occurred there earlier, Tinsley's group decided to leave almost immediately. Three males hovered near Jamaal's recognizable Rolls-Royce. They insisted on partying with him; wherever Tinsley was headed, they demanded to accompany him. Ticked at being told he was going home, they issued this menacing message: "We're going to party with you whether you like it or not."

    Words you don't hear in the bible were then exchanged right about the time a truck packing backup muscle and an assault weapon arrived. The 100 mph chase was on. Tinsley's three-car caravan of chrome could not shake the posse.

    Rather than keep trying to get home, Tinsley's group headed to the Conrad Hotel, the city's priciest, most lit-up lodge, where there figured to be security on tap. At once the parking lot turned into a firing range, shots sprayed everywhere.

    According to reports, two of the cars and Joey Qatato, 48, sitting behind Tinsley in the passenger seat, were hit; the veteran equipment man, brought to Indiana from Boston by loyal friend Larry Bird, may lose mobility in one of his two bullet-ridden elbows.

    Tinsley's brother, James, one of three in Tinsley's group carrying licensed heat, pursued the vehicle with the shooter and returned fire.

    A preliminary police investigation theorized the plan was to follow Tinsley to his downtown crib and rob him.


    I know what you're thinking. When is Tinsley (and others at his plateau) going to learn to stay away from places that attract the rudest and crudest element?

    Or might that actually be the attraction?

    How many professional players must have welts on their necks from the necklace strippin' or killed outright before it's understood it might be wise to get off the streets at a reasonable hour?

    The incontrovertible comeback is, "See all of the above."

    As anyone who was ever young, single and had too much time and money on their hands can argue convincingly, "Why shouldn't Tinsley be out and about?"

    In that same position, I used to say to my friends at the start of the night, "If we're lucky we'll get in trouble."

    But back then it was a much different kind of trouble. We were thinking women and glasses of beer. Today they're not thinking at all; we're talking deadly trouble.

    Tinsley's biggest strength is his biggest weakness. Hanging tough is what he is, it's what he does. His attitude is Brooklyn to the hard core.

    But unless your crew is instantaneously ready to escalate a confrontation with their crew to the red zone and not give a spit about the consequences, you cannot compete in that warped world.

    A good idea would be to stay away from it as much as humanly possible.

    You would think Tinsley would understand by now that criminals looking to drop his decimals have nothing to lose.

    Meanwhile, Jamaal earns $6.3 million, has three years guaranteed remaining at $6.75, $7,2M and $7.5M, has a young son he adores, and is enjoying his most productive season by far under Jim O'Brien.

    You would think one of the NBA's slickest point guards would exercise better off-the-court decision-making.

    On the flip side, Tinsley could've been chilling in his Indy condo by 11 p.m. when, out of nowhere and without provocation, the same insane crew could've pulled a Biggie Smalls, "kick in his door, wavin' the .44."

    With that in mind, column castigator Frank Drucker has been kind enough to provide five pristine safe houses:

    In the mountains with Osama; 14 stalls over from Sen. Larry Craig; International Space Station; Norman Rockwell's America; a womb with a view.

    peter.vecsey@nypost.com
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 12-11-2007 at 09:20 AM.

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    International Counter bellisimo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz comes up with a gem - and Vecsey's take

    sounds like Kravitz is actually growing up...kudos.

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    Default Re: Kravitz comes up with a gem - and Vecsey's take

    Wow, look at the New York papers scooping the local hacks that just want to see a feeding frenzy. This rendition of the story shows a little more of how Tinsley and his party were victims when they tried to do the right thing. They tried to leave immediatly once they found out there was a fight earlier. Where was that in any......... ANY of the local coverage?!?!?!?!?

    Local media: Don't let the facts get in the way of pushing your agenda!

    Oh yeah, one last thing....**** you, Greg Garrisson!
    Last edited by Roaming Gnome; 12-11-2007 at 09:13 AM.
    ...Still "flying casual"
    @roaminggnome74

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    Member owl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz comes up with a gem - and Vecsey's take

    Call 911 anybody????????????????? This adventure probably took 15 minutes at least.
    Have the police meet you at the Conrad?
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    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz with a gem - and Vecsey has some new info!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Informed a fight had occurred there earlier, Tinsley's group decided to leave almost immediately. Three males hovered near Jamaal's recognizable Rolls-Royce. They insisted on partying with him; wherever Tinsley was headed, they demanded to accompany him. Ticked at being told he was going home, they issued this menacing message: "We're going to party with you whether you like it or not."
    Hadn't heard this before... is this new? How did Vescey get this and we didn't?

    Or is he just making crap up?
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    Default Re: Kravitz comes up with a gem - and Vecsey's take

    If Tins did one thing right it was going to the Conrad. If he had gone home he'd be dead right now. I'm convinced of that.

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz comes up with a gem - and Vecsey's take

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    Wow, look at the New York papers scooping the local hacks that just want to see a feeding frenzy. This rendition of the story shows a little more of how Tinsley and his party were victims when they tried to do the right thing. They tried to leave immediatly once they found out there was a fight earlier. Where was that in any......... ANY of the local coverage?!?!?!?!?

    Local media: Don't let the facts get in the way of pushing your agenda!

    Oh yeah, one last thing....**** you, Greg Garrisson!

    The local media hasn't done a very good job of describing the whole evening - which gives it proper context. For all the local media was telling us I figured they had been at the 9 cloud place all evening. Although I would love to have heard the conversion that took place when deciding whether to go the 9 cloud place. Those type of things facinate me, as I think back at the things I was talked into doing and place I was talked into going at 1 in the morning.

    Owl, Sure they should have called the cops, although if I was driving 100 MPH south on 65, I would expect the police would find us, or some other car not involved in what sounds like a 4 or 5 car chase, would have called the police. Although I wonder what the chase was like from 65 to the Conrad.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz with a gem - and Vecsey has some new info!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Hadn't heard this before... is this new? How did Vescey get this and we didn't?

    Or is he just making crap up?
    Why would he make something like that up, say what you want about Vecsey but he has a ton of sources throughout the NBA.

    By all rights Tinsley easily could have been killed, or seriously injured to the point he never would have played basketball again let alone walk. (the sad thing is to think of how different the story would be right now if Jamaal had been shot)

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    Default Re: Kravitz with a gem - and Vecsey has some new info!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Hadn't heard this before... is this new? How did Vescey get this and we didn't?

    Or is he just making crap up?

    i guess it depends on how much you believe walsh has vescey's ear.



    i've said it before and i'll say it again: nothing good ever happens once RKelly is involved.
    This is the darkest timeline.

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    Default Re: Kravitz on Tinsley - and Vecsey with new info !!!

    I'm guessing the source is Quatato.

    He's a good friend of Bird's. Came over from Boston. He was a first-hand witness (was he ever!), told Bird the whole story, who told Walsh, who we all know is a key Vescey informant.

    In this situation, TPTB have the info they need to make a good decision.
    .

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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Kravitz on Tinsley - and Vecsey with new info !!!

    Frustrating set of circumstances...

    Frustrated to see yet another event to tarnish the leaps and bounds the team has made on the court.

    Frustrating to see how the media can escalate the circumstances...

    Frustrating to think that Tinsley might revert back to sinuspoutitis, as he realizes that his local fan base would still rather not see him around... even though I personally believe he's given this season his full effort.

    Frustrating that this team can't seem to avoid controversy off the court...

    Frustrated that the local media can't portray the events in such a way as to get behind their team, and that the true events come from a New York paper, of all places...

    Frustrated that my support of the team necessitates having to wade through the off court drama, and prevents me from convincing my wife to go to games with me...

    Grumble...

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    Default Re: Kravitz on Tinsley - and Vecsey with new info !!!

    I doubt Vescey would have said that if he did not have it straight from Bird or Walsh. So considering that I would say its the gospel.

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    Default Re: Kravitz with a gem - and Vecsey has some new info!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by avoidingtheclowns View Post
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    i've said it before and i'll say it again: nothing good ever happens once RKelly is involved.
    Well I was just standin' here...
    You Got The Tony!!!!!!

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    Default Re: Kravitz on Tinsley - and Vecsey with new info !!!

    The Vecsey info is very intriguing. Makes this thing look much better from a PR standpoint for Tinsley and the crew. The one thing I don't understand though... if they went to Cloud 9 at 1am, left almost immediately and had a 100 mph chase back to the middle of town, why was it almost 3:40am when the police were called?

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    Default Re: Kravitz on Tinsley - and Vecsey with new info !!!

    If what Vescey says is true, I don't blame Tinsley one bit. Earlier, I thought he could've exercised better judgment about going out so late. But after hearing that they tried to leave the club immediately after they heard that there was a fight there earlier shows that they had good judgment. After learning about what type of club that is, I don't think anyone can honestly say that they could expect something like that to happen there.

    What is it with lowlifes targeting athletes this year?? I don't recall so many incidents like this happening in one year. The murders of Darrant Williams and Sean Taylor, Tinsley almost becoming another victim, Antoine Walker getting robbed at gunpoint...

    Is this a disturbing new trend or is this just the year for crazy people with guns to just go off and kill people?
    Last edited by Aw Heck; 12-11-2007 at 10:38 AM.

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    Default Re: Kravitz on Tinsley - and Vecsey with new info !!!

    Yeah, the "almost immediately" part sounds like bull**** to me. 2+ hours isn't immediately.

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    Default Re: Kravitz on Tinsley - and Vecsey with new info !!!

    Wait, that makes no sense. The reports say this happend about 3:30 yet PV says they left immediately? I'd say PV doesn't have all of his info straight.
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    Default Re: Kravitz on Tinsley - and Vecsey with new info !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by D23 View Post
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    ...if they went to Cloud 9 at 1am, left almost immediately and had a 100 mph chase back to the middle of town, why was it almost 3:40am when the police were called?
    The same thought crossed my mind. It sure doesn't take 2 hours, especially if you are driving 100 mph to get DT from W 38th St. More like 10 mins tops at those speeds. It's bull, but it may be true that they left "almost immediately" after finding out about the earlier fight. Maybe they weren't told of it right away.

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    Default Re: Kravitz on Tinsley - and Vecsey with new info !!!

    I don't know what time the Pay-Per-View fight ended. So maybe they showed up at 1:30 am? Went inside got a private room and ordered some drinks started drinking and then were informed of the previous fight and now it's 2:00. They argue about staying or leaving finish their drinks it's now 2:30. They go outside and run into the shooters, argue with them for awhile and take off it's now 2:45. They stop at White Castle and get some grub take off and realize they're being followed it's now a little after 3:00. They try to take evasive action and end up at the Conrad it's 3:20-3:30. It's not that unlikely really. It's not like they pulled up to the place and somebody ran out and said "hey people were fighting here earlier you guys shouldn't even get out of the car".

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    Default Re: Kravitz comes up with a gem - and Vecsey's take

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    Wow, look at the New York papers scooping the local hacks that just want to see a feeding frenzy. This rendition of the story shows a little more of how Tinsley and his party were victims when they tried to do the right thing. They tried to leave immediatly once they found out there was a fight earlier. Where was that in any......... ANY of the local coverage?!?!?!?!?

    Local media: Don't let the facts get in the way of pushing your agenda!

    Oh yeah, one last thing....**** you, Greg Garrisson!
    Why Garrison? His comments were directed at poor decision making and the guy being a lightening rod for trouble. He got after the organization for not cleaning up their act. I've heard much worse from others in town.
    Was there some I didn't hear from him?
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    Default Re: Kravitz on Tinsley - and Vecsey with new info !!!

    Wow. Reading the details that Vescey put out there kind of scares me. Considering that I lived in Oakland, Ca. for 10 years [most of those years Oakland had one of the highest crime rates in the United States], I still knew I could go to many places in the city and feel perfectly safe.

    My year and a half in Indianapolis [though I was born here] has made me shake my head. The murder rate is ridiculous, and the way people are so bold in the way they commit crimes here flat out scares me. Regardless of how bad Oakland, Ca.'s reputation for crime is, I was never EVER scared to live there. I'm becoming afraid of living in Indianapolis.

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    Default Re: Kravitz on Tinsley - and Vecsey with new info !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    I don't know what time the Pay-Per-View fight ended. So maybe they showed up at 1:30 am? Went inside got a private room and ordered some drinks started drinking and then were informed of the previous fight and now it's 2:00. They argue about staying or leaving finish their drinks it's now 2:30. They go outside and run into the shooters, argue with them for awhile and take off it's now 2:45. They stop at White Castle and get some grub take off and realize they're being followed it's now a little after 3:00. They try to take evasive action and end up at the Conrad it's 3:20-3:30. It's not that unlikely really. It's not like they pulled up to the place and somebody ran out and said "hey people were fighting here earlier you guys shouldn't even get out of the car".
    Yeah that's kinda what I was thinking, you just did a much better job of putting into words than me.

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    Default Re: Kravitz with a gem - and Vecsey has some new info!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Hadn't heard this before... is this new? How did Vescey get this and we didn't?

    Or is he just making crap up?

    Vecsey and Donnie Walsh are friends and native New Yorkers. He knows more about what goes on with the Pacers than he does the Knicks.
    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz on Tinsley - and Vecsey with new info !!!

    It is interesting how people read the same thing differently. I took that once they heard there was a fight they left almost immediately. Not that they left almost immediately after arriving.

    Go back and re-read that part.

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