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Thread: Post Game Thread 20: Pacers give Magic 5th loss

  1. #51
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread 20: Pacers give Magic 5th loss

    Quote Originally Posted by mb221 View Post
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    For those of you saying JO looked off tonight...

    I vaguely remember at some point in the first half the announcers mentioning that he had knocked knees with somebody... maybe he was feeling a little iffy for the rest of the game. Not to mention the match up with Howard, although I think he played him pretty strong tbh.
    If his knee was bothering him he shouldn't have tried to shoot the ball as much.

    He shot 6-17 and had 4 turnovers, a few of the turnovers would have been another missed shot if he'd held on to the ball long enough to make the attempt.

    I'm sick to death of his horrible FG%. He's not a good shooter, never has been, never will be. He can really help this team by playing D, blocking shots, taking charges and rebounding. He only had 6 boards, 6'3" Tinsley had 7. When JO shoots sub 40% he flat out hurts the team.

    Like Anthem said in another thread, it's pretty easy to tell when he's likely to hit the shot or miss it, seems everyone knows but him.
    "Just look at the flowers ........ BANG"

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    Default Re: Post Game Thread 20: Pacers give Magic 5th loss

    The way we've been playing lately it's hard to believe we went on a 6 game skid and are only at .500. We need to capitalise on this form and get a few games clear of 9th.

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    Default Re: Post Game Thread 20: Pacers give Magic 5th loss

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoop View Post
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    If his knee was bothering him he shouldn't have tried to shoot the ball as much.

    He shot 6-17 and had 4 turnovers, a few of the turnovers would have been another missed shot if he'd held on to the ball long enough to make the attempt.

    I'm sick to death of his horrible FG%. He's not a good shooter, never has been, never will be. He can really help this team by playing D, blocking shots, taking charges and rebounding. He only had 6 boards, 6'3" Tinsley had 7. When JO shoots sub 40% he flat out hurts the team.

    Like Anthem said in another thread, it's pretty easy to tell when he's likely to hit the shot or miss it, seems everyone knows but him.
    I could tolerate JONeal's 38% shooting if he got to the FT line more often.

    Since his return from his injury, he has averaged 4 FTA a game.....he has to get back up to his previous season's averages of 6.5+ FTA a game ( on a consistent basis ) in order to make up for his poor FG% on 16 FGA per game.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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    Default Re: Post Game Thread 20: Pacers give Magic 5th loss

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoop View Post
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    If his knee was bothering him he shouldn't have tried to shoot the ball as much.

    He shot 6-17 and had 4 turnovers, a few of the turnovers would have been another missed shot if he'd held on to the ball long enough to make the attempt.

    I'm sick to death of his horrible FG%. He's not a good shooter, never has been, never will be. He can really help this team by playing D, blocking shots, taking charges and rebounding. He only had 6 boards, 6'3" Tinsley had 7. When JO shoots sub 40% he flat out hurts the team.

    Like Anthem said in another thread, it's pretty easy to tell when he's likely to hit the shot or miss it, seems everyone knows but him.
    I strongly agree with this. His contract is what it is at this point and he is what he is so there's no use trying to keep pretending he's a force inside with hardly a miss and nobody who can stop him. Sure, it would be great if he was a 20-10 PF shooting 55%+ from the field... but he's not. We don't even need his scoring most nights. What we need is for him to play defense, rebound, screen, and get his baskets when the opportunity presents.

    Sure, his scoring might go down, but his value to the team would skyrocket.

    -Bball
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread 20: Pacers give Magic 5th loss

    I have a few questions:

    1 ) Is it me or is Tinsley becoming more of a "pass-1st PG / score 2nd" PG in the 1st half and then switches gears and becomes more of a "score 1st / pass 2nd" PG in the 2nd half ( most notably in the 4th QTR )?

    I haven't watched any games, but from the highlights on TV that I have seen over the last couple of wins....that's what I notice in the recaps.....it's like "blah blah blah Pacers down by blah blah points in the 1st half.....then Tinsley starts pouring in the points at the end of the game to help win the game".

    2 ) What was the turning point in the game?

    Did Granger all of a sudden start hitting shots like crazy that sparked the huge run?
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Post Game Thread 20: Pacers give Magic 5th loss

    We played poorly for 30 minutes and overcame that to win against a good team, in their building. That's extremely impressive and this is our best win this season for me.

    Jeff Foster did so many things tonight that don't appear on the stat sheet, there is no way we win this game without him. He always has played Dwight Howard well, and he did again tonight, but it was in a different way. DH has pretty much reached unstoppable status right now, and he got his points against us. When Jeff was in the game he made Dwight earn his points and rebounds as often as he could. He was very physical with him, Dwight will be sore tomorrow morning.

    We were also very physical with Hedo after he hit some shots on us early, and that really rattled him. A lot of what we saw teams do to Peja during his stint here to shut him down we did to Hedo and it was fun to watch for me. Defensively this team is starting to form an identity as a physical smashmouth team and I really like it. Teams are dared to come in to the paint against us, therefore they shoot a ton of 3's against us. Sure that will hurt us sometimes like it did early in this one, but I'd rather lose having a team hit a bunch of tough shots on us then get to the basket and get easy ones. Plus the percentages will even out plenty like they did tonight and we'll win a lot of games.

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    Default Re: Post Game Thread 20: Pacers give Magic 5th loss

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    I have a few questions:

    1 ) Is it me or is Tinsley becoming more of a "pass-1st PG / score 2nd" PG in the 1st half and then switches gears and becomes more of a "score 1st / pass 2nd" PG in the 2nd half ( most notably in the 4th QTR )?

    I haven't watched any games, but from the highlights on TV that I have seen over the last couple of wins....that's what I notice in the recaps.....it's like "blah blah blah Pacers down by blah blah points in the 1st half.....then Tinsley starts pouring in the points at the end of the game to help win the game".

    2 ) What was the turning point in the game?

    Did Granger all of a sudden start hitting shots like crazy that sparked the huge run?

    I have noticed the same thing about tinsley. I think he breaks down his man so well and makes so many good passes his defender starts to get lazy. Then late in the game he sticks it to them when they have no gas left.

    I also notice he loves the bank more than anyone. always off the glass.

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    Default Re: Post Game Thread 20: Pacers give Magic 5th loss

    Quote Originally Posted by justinDOHMAN View Post
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    I have noticed the same thing about tinsley. I think he breaks down his man so well and makes so many good passes his defender starts to get lazy. Then late in the game he sticks it to them when they have no gas left.

    I also notice he loves the bank more than anyone. always off the glass.
    Tins always could take it to the basket, now he's hitting them. Healthy, I think we are a contender at seasons end!

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    Default Re: Post Game Thread 20: Pacers give Magic 5th loss

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoop View Post
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    If his knee was bothering him he shouldn't have tried to shoot the ball as much.

    He shot 6-17 and had 4 turnovers, a few of the turnovers would have been another missed shot if he'd held on to the ball long enough to make the attempt.

    I'm sick to death of his horrible FG%. He's not a good shooter, never has been, never will be. He can really help this team by playing D, blocking shots, taking charges and rebounding. He only had 6 boards, 6'3" Tinsley had 7. When JO shoots sub 40% he flat out hurts the team.

    Like Anthem said in another thread, it's pretty easy to tell when he's likely to hit the shot or miss it, seems everyone knows but him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I strongly agree with this. His contract is what it is at this point and he is what he is so there's no use trying to keep pretending he's a force inside with hardly a miss and nobody who can stop him. Sure, it would be great if he was a 20-10 PF shooting 55%+ from the field... but he's not. We don't even need his scoring most nights. What we need is for him to play defense, rebound, screen, and get his baskets when the opportunity presents.

    Sure, his scoring might go down, but his value to the team would skyrocket.

    -Bball
    Amen. I'd be surprised if Jim hasn't seen this as well, I only hope he's not afraid to tell him.

    Great win btw. I think we can be a very good team when we drive to the basket on a consistent basis.

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    Exclamation Re: Post Game Thread 20: Pacers give Magic 5th loss

    Jamaal is our main man. He is our motor NO QUESTION ABOUT IT!
    Give Jim O'Brien some credit. I'm a believer of his system and his philosophy. I'm happy he is here!!

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    Default Re: Post Game Thread 20: Pacers give Magic 5th loss

    Interesting sequence in the 4th.

    JO Iso, turnover trying to back down Howard.

    Next possession, JO, badly missed shot on closely guarded fade away.

    Next three possessions, Tinsley waives everyone off and scores off post up and hits 3 in the middle of those two post ups.

    Tinsley is really impressive right now, he's playing fearlessly, I am one who constantly moans when he has tried this in the past, but not now, he's earned a couple of bad game passes from me even.

    I hope JO doesn't get discouraged cuz he can be a huge cog on a good team, just like we mostly agree upon, he's not a go to guy every play.

    This teams is setting me up for disappointment, I know it, just because I swear they are really putting it together.

    It's probably time for a couple of stinkers.

    Side note: anyone see Tins getting on DG to run his lane all the way to the basket on a fast break instead of floating to the 3 pt line. DG did, boom, and one-3 point play. Tins is really taking over this team.

    Second side note: Anyone hear Obie SCREAMING at Shawne to get back and play D, very directly, after giving up a lay up the previous play to Torkulu.

    Buh da dat da duh, I'm loving it.

  12. #62
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread 20: Pacers give Magic 5th loss

    I always enjoy reading the other cities newspaper articles. Didn't realize the pacers had a dismal record.


    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sport...09,print.story



    OrlandoSentinel.com
    PACERS 115, MAGIC 109
    Defensive holes haunt Orlando Magic
    Brian Schmitz

    Sentinel Staff Writer

    December 8, 2007

    The Orlando Magic hadn't lost much at all this season and, certainly, never like they did Friday night. So trying this one on for size was bound to be as tight and uncomfortable as a pair of rental tuxedo shoes.

    The Indiana Pacers threw the Magic and their coach for a loop as Stan Van Gundy stewed about his own turnovers and the hometown team discovered it might have to play defense on occasion.

    The Magic were reminded of the reality of NBA life as a climber when their wondrous ride suddenly stopped in a 115-109 defeat to the Indiana Pacers at Amway Arena.

    For the first time in an otherwise brilliant start to the season, the Magic (16-5) lost a game to a team with a dismal record, falling to the Pacers (10-10) in front of a sellout crowd of 17,519.

    Their previous losses were to recent champions (Detroit Pistons and San Antonio Spurs) and home-and-away defeats to a perennial contender (Phoenix Suns).

    The Magic had waltzed home after yet another stellar road trip but returned to lose for the first time in 15 games after heading into the final period with the lead. Coming home did not offer them a soft place to land.

    If you listen to Van Gundy tell it, this loss was not only coming but maybe welcome.

    "We deserved to lose and, to be quite honest, we probably needed to lose," he said.

    As with most coaches, Van Gundy worries even during the wins, and he had been warning his team they couldn't get away with merely outscoring people. The Magic would need to add more defense to their diet.

    The Pacers are surprisingly playing like the shoot-'em-up Magic under stoic Coach Jim O'Brien. They overcame a 15-point deficit to outscore the Magic 31-22 in the fourth quarter and 61-47 in the second half.

    Orlando shot 43.2 percent and committed 24 turnovers (for 32 points), though they edged the Pacers 23-19 in fastbreak points.

    "With some defense, that's a winnable game," said Van Gundy. "We did not play the game well; particularly on the defensive end, we were awful."

    The defeat came on Friday night, but it could have been traced to several days ago -- on another coast, in another time zone, to another team.

    After escaping the Golden State Warriors on this past week's road trip, Van Gundy warned his team it wouldn't always be able to shoot its way out trouble. "We got lulled into thinking we could get away with it," he said.

    "What I said to them at halftime was if we hit a drought shooting the ball we are in trouble -- and sure enough, that's what happened."

    The Magic managed just two field goals in 11-plus minutes in a span bridging the third and fourth quarters.

    They held a 12-point lead in the third, but Van Gundy stuck with mostly reserves even as the Pacers cut it to three. "I had a screwed-up lineup at the end of the third," Van Gundy said. "I was as awful as they [the players] were."

    In another move that might have backfired, Van Gundy decided to leave guard Keyon Dooling on the bench. Dooling has not only been the Magic's best reserve, but their best perimeter defender. Van Gundy said the Pacers had too much size, but later conceded he was "kicking" himself for not getting Dooling on the floor.

    Dwight Howard led all scorers with 30 points and grabbed 15 rebounds but had six turnovers. Rashard Lewis added 24 points and Keith Bogans 14. Hedo Turkoglu had a forgettable night, missing 12 of 15 shots and committing six turnovers.

    Pacers forward Danny Granger scored 27 points, hitting 6-of-7 3-pointers. Point guard Jaamal Tinsley had 20 points and 10 assists

    "If we want to be a better team," Magic center Adonal Foyle said, "we have to treat defense the way we treat offense."

    Brian Schmitz can be reached at bschmitz@orlandosentinel.com.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread 20: Pacers give Magic 5th loss

    I love the quote from O'Brien at the end of this one about Granger


    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sport...l_tab02_layout




    OrlandoSentinel.com
    PACERS 115, MAGIC 109
    Granger reminds Magic of the past
    Orlando passed the forward in the 2005 draft to choose the absent Fran Vazquez.
    Tim Povtak

    Sentinel Staff Writer

    December 8, 2007

    Every time he comes to town, Danny Granger drudges up an uneasy past.

    It happened again Friday night.

    It wasn't so much the 27 points he scored to lead the Indiana Pacers to a 115-109 victory over the Magic, but the recurring memory of the Magic bypassing him in the 2005 draft to take long-lost Fran Vazquez, who is still playing in Spain.

    "Yes, they are one of the teams that let me slide past," Granger said. "But everything worked out for the best -- at least for me it did."

    When the Magic took Vazquez, who was playing in Europe, with the No. 11 pick that year, Granger kept sliding, finally falling to the Pacers at No. 17.

    It's a draft the Magic would like to forget. Just like the game Friday night when a woeful-shooting fourth quarter -- coupled with the earlier hot shooting of Granger -- put a damper on their fast start this season.

    Granger, now in his third NBA season, has become the Pacers' leading scorer (17.8 ppg). Although they were picked to finish near the bottom of the Eastern Conference, they have joined the Magic as one of the league's surprises. Granger is the biggest reason why.

    Like the Magic (16-5), the Pacers (10-10) have shown resiliency, playing better on the road (6-4) than at home (4-6) this season.

    "We heard what people were saying about us, but we knew we were better than that," Granger said. "We're not settling for being good. We want to be great, even if no one else thinks we can be."

    Granger has become proof that gems can be found in the middle of the draft. Coming out of the University of New Mexico, Granger left teams nervous about his surgically-repaired right knee.

    He finished his college career at less than 100 percent because he returned too quickly after surgery. The knee was slightly swollen when he did his pre-draft workouts.

    "It was disappointing for the way I fell in the draft, but looking back now, I guess it was understandable," he said. "It's part of my history."

    On Friday, Granger was both hot and cold. He hit six of seven shots from 3-point range, but he missed badly on a dunk late in the game. And he missed two other shots from close range.

    He had four steals, two blocks and several deflections, causing problems for the Magic attack with his long, active arms in the passing lanes.

    "Danny had 15 deflections. I've been keeping deflection stats for 25 years, and I've never seen anyone play 15 deflections, meaning he's getting his hands on a lot of balls," said Pacers Coach Jim O'Brien. "If he stops missing layups, he's going to be a player."

  14. #64
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread 20: Pacers give Magic 5th loss

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoop View Post
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    I'm sick to death of his horrible FG%. He's not a good shooter, never has been, never will be. He can really help this team by playing D, blocking shots, taking charges and rebounding. He only had 6 boards, 6'3" Tinsley had 7. When JO shoots sub 40% he flat out hurts the team.
    He didn't rebound well last night, but other than that he's doing those things just fine.

    He can ALSO help the team by scoring the ball in the paint, which he's more than able to do. But he can't do it once the D has set up. He needs to move immediately. That's true of most big men in the NBA... I don't know why Jermaine doesn't see it.
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread 20: Pacers give Magic 5th loss

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    He didn't rebound well last night, but other than that he's doing those things just fine.

    He can ALSO help the team by scoring the ball in the paint, which he's more than able to do. But he can't do it once the D has set up. He needs to move immediately. That's true of most big men in the NBA... I don't know why Jermaine doesn't see it.

    I will say this, if you could have seen an alternate universe/bizarro game w/o JO, I think that Howard may have gotten Foster in foul trouble early and had 50 and 30, Wilt style. At least with JO you can occupy a guy like Howard at both ends.

  16. #66
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread 20: Pacers give Magic 5th loss

    The JO discussion has a lot of good points going on. I do agree that he will be more effective scoring the ball inside with quicker moves/decisions. The longer he waits around the less his chances at converting in the post.

    I think without him last night just int he role of trying to body up Howard, we would have been in big trouble. Not a particularly good game for JO overall, but who else was going to be able to body up Howard? For the minutes he got his rebounding was extremely disappointing.

    I suppose you have to go to him some offensively just to keep the defense honest. However, in the mismatch that JO vs Howard has become at this point, I'm not sure I"m going to him much at all in that particular game. I'm thinking he scored so much vs. the Suns simply b/c Amare is an excellent offensive player who for his athletic ability puts up little to no defensive resistance.

    Finally, I return to an idea I posted eariler, maybe as far as performance this is what we can come to expect from JO if we persist in using him in the current role. He appeared to have more spring in the Phoenix game, but maybe that's partially b/c the Suns are a finesse team w/ no interior D to speak of.

    Plus, perhaps he's not going to get much better physically. A spry game here and there interspersed with the rickety, slow looking ones. Regardless of his physical, athletic level and its ongoing improvement or lack thereof, I don't think we can expect him to have the speed to get out and run when we're playing open court.

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    Default Re: Post Game Thread 20: Pacers give Magic 5th loss

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Didn't realize the pacers had a dismal record.
    Thanks for posting this.


    We've had recent threads about how bad Tinsley is, how bad O'Neal is, how bad Granger is, and how bad Murphy is.

    After last night's game, those all look silly.

    Maybe we've got a pretty decent team after all. Maybe every player has his liabilities, and maybe inconsistency is pretty normal.

    And I love the fact that the Pacers seem to get unexpected numbers from somebody every night.
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

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    Default Re: Post Game Thread 20: Pacers give Magic 5th loss

    I really hate to say this, but the Tinman is winning me back one game at a time.

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    Default Re: Post Game Thread 20: Pacers give Magic 5th loss

    Quote Originally Posted by D-BONE View Post
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    Plus, perhaps he's not going to get much better physically. A spry game here and there interspersed with the rickety, slow looking ones. Regardless of his physical, athletic level and its ongoing improvement or lack thereof, I don't think we can expect him to have the speed to get out and run when we're playing open court.
    I'm not saying that Harrison, Murphy, Foster or Ike ( to a lesser degree ) are race horses.....but in order for our offense to work, isn't this an expectation that we would have to have with anybody in the Starting Frontcourt?
    Last edited by CableKC; 12-08-2007 at 11:10 AM.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  20. #70
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread 20: Pacers give Magic 5th loss

    This was a great win.
    I almost turned the channel when we were down 15.
    But I kept watching
    GREAT WIN!


    Some people want it to happen, some
    wish it would happen, & others make it happen.
    ..Michael Jordan.

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    you don't know what the hell you're
    doing.
    ..Peyton Manning.

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    Default Re: Post Game Thread 20: Pacers give Magic 5th loss

    Quote Originally Posted by Danny Granger View Post
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    "We heard what people were saying about us, but we knew we were better than that," Granger said. "We're not settling for being good. We want to be great, even if no one else thinks we can be."
    I'll drink to that.

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
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  22. #72
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread 20: Pacers give Magic 5th loss

    Howard's night was driven almost entirely by his own good space work and the breakdowns coming to the lane. Reddick got past whoever it was (forget) and JO stepped to help. Dwight made a nice step-away move from JO to create not just a passing lane but also a dunking lane once he got the ball. This was standard for his entire night.

    But in terms of scoring out of his own post game he was extremely contained. Some of that was on JO, but a lot of it was also the brilliant double teaming that came at him. Granger was one of the most notable help guys in those spots.

    JO was horrible on offense but strong on defense. Semi-frustrating night out of him. But he did have one of his few scores late in the 4th when they needed it.

    Dun's passing was sick. Tinsley's passing goes without saying. I loved that pass from just past the arc to the mid-lane at the other end (cross court too, right side to left side) from Tins to Danny (IIRC).


    The PHX loss was annoying because it felt like they let it get away a bit. It wasn't just on Nash, they hurt themselves too. The Seattle loss I felt like was flat-out just them shooting their way into a loss. Their play in that game was very strong for the most part, they just missed shots (JOB agreed in the post-game).

    So with that in mind I think their slot in the East right now is probably where they are going to end up. That's way above my summer expectations. My one defense is that I did say that IF a bunch of things went a certain way that they could be a 45 win team. Those are things like Tins playing well and Mike dropping the 3. Suffice to say that nearly every thing I thought they needed to work out in order to win at this level is working out that way.


    It's a lot more fun to be wrong/surprised and happy.


    Dismal = 10-10, right in the same sentence. Does that guy really equate those 2 things? Gee Bill Walton, why not learn how to speak in hyperbole a little bit more.

  23. #73
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread 20: Pacers give Magic 5th loss

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    Tins always could take it to the basket, now he's hitting them. Healthy, I think we are a contender at seasons end!
    Which is why I mentioned him in my Foster thread last year. Shot selection has never been the Tins problem, shot making has. Now the other day it was pointed out that if you can't make them then maybe they aren't really good shots.

    My response to that is to say that a player should be able to hit the wide-open 3, at least a decent PG should, and a PG that can get into the lane or post easily should be able to then make the short banker or tear drop. You simply have to have those in your arsenal if you are a passing and handles type of PG.

    The low block banker is a shot Tins always has been able to get. He just hasn't always knocked it down consistently. I'd much rather have him learn to hit it than give up on it entirely.


    Definitely agree. Quis is tons better next to Tinsley instead of only playing when Jamaal needs a breather.
    I agree too. Problem is, options? Think about this, Diener and Rush didn't even play. Did you notice? 20 games in and TD just hasn't been what the Pacers needed.

    I think some of the problem is what Quis has to help him at the time. Say JO is rolling then he can feed the post, or maybe Mike helps in the offensive creation area, etc. I still think they can limp by with Quis doing some PG duty when needed. Harrison as the bench post threat (and Ike eventually) would also make a huge difference. I did find myself wishing that David was available during the game.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 12-08-2007 at 03:13 PM.

  24. #74
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread 20: Pacers give Magic 5th loss

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Gee Bill Walton, why not learn how to speak in hyperbole a little bit more.
    But in fairness to Walton, he's possibly the best hyperbolist in the history of the English language.
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