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Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"

"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"

"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"

"He/she is just delusional"

"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"

"I'm going to take a moment to point and / laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"

"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.

We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.

In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

Rule #2

If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.

The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.

The right places to do so are:

A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.

B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.

If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

Rule #3

If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

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B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.

To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!

Rule #4

Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

Rule #5

When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.

An example:

If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:

http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star

Rule #6

We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.

The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

Rule #7

Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.

It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).

We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).

However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.

Rule #8

We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

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Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.

Rule #10

We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.

Rule #11

Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
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Attendance

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  • #16
    Re: Attendance

    Originally posted by able View Post
    It could also be a confirmation that the marketing strategy chosen has failed miserably.
    That's a bit of a leap considering attendance was dropping like a stone during previous years of player-centric marketing. The only conclusion that should be drawn is that the non-player-centric advertising doesn't seem to have worked any better, though you still don't know if player-centric ads would have actually drawn more or fewer people to the arena.

    All that said, I remember reading in the Clippers Non-Broadcasted Game thread that the Pacers actually PAY to be broadcast on FSI. You'd think they could figure out how to also get some over-the-air stations involved if that was the case, though the difficulty is that there is no independent OTA station with a decent broadcasting range any more.
    BillS

    A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
    Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Attendance

      Originally posted by Adam1987 View Post
      I seriously hope you're not getting that confused with market size. Please don't tell me you think that Indianapolis is the 12th largest market in the United States.
      Now that *IS* a problem. Because while it's the "Indiana" Pacers and the "Indianapolis" Colts, it's always been clear that the Colts are more of a state team and the Pacers are more of a city team.

      Want goodwill in the state? Reach out to the state!
      This space for rent.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Attendance

        Originally posted by BillS View Post
        That's a bit of a leap considering attendance was dropping like a stone during previous years of player-centric marketing. The only conclusion that should be drawn is that the non-player-centric advertising doesn't seem to have worked any better, though you still don't know if player-centric ads would have actually drawn more or fewer people to the arena.

        All that said, I remember reading in the Clippers Non-Broadcasted Game thread that the Pacers actually PAY to be broadcast on FSI. You'd think they could figure out how to also get some over-the-air stations involved if that was the case, though the difficulty is that there is no independent OTA station with a decent broadcasting range any more.
        They pay to be on, but the Pacers get the advertising dollars. I'm not sure of the exact agreement.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Attendance

          Originally posted by Adam1987 View Post
          I seriously hope you're not getting that confused with market size. Please don't tell me you think that Indianapolis is the 12th largest market in the United States.

          Indianapolis is the 12th largest *city* and only is because it "cheats" and counts all of Marion county. Only a handful of cities (Louisville, Nashville) do that.

          For example, Chicago has a city population of 2,873,321. But if it "cheated" like Indy and consolidated it's government with the county and counted all of Cook County as it's city population, it would be 5,288,655!

          City pop is only city limits. And it is a completely useless way to judge how large a market is. Indianapolis as the 12th largest city doesn't include important cities such as Greenwood or Carmel. But Indianapolis as the 33rd largest metropolitan area includes those cities, and is the most important way to judge the size of Indy or any other city.

          Indianapolis is 13th largest "city" with 785,597. Miami is 43rd with 408,043. See how misleading that is? Does anyone in their right mind consider Indianapolis to be a bigger place than freaking Miami, Florida? No way. That 408,043 doesn't include South Beach, Miami Beach. The Miami metro area is 7th largest in the US, compared to Indy at 33rd. Boston and Atlanta are also smaller "cities" than Indianapolis but have metro areas that make Indy seem absolutely tiny.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._by_population

          A good quote from that page "For example, Jacksonville, Florida has a population greater than both Boston and Washington. But Boston and Washington are surrounded by many more suburbs which make their metropolitan area populations much greater than Jacksonville's. Because the metropolitan population is much greater in those cities, there is more dense settlement which leads to more cultural institutions, greater transportation options, and more entertainment attractions."

          I think of Indianapolis as being the 33rd largest market or area in the United States. To call it 12th largest is completely misleading.

          Agreed - Your point is well made.

          Ticket prices are a major factor in my not attending more games. Simply
          put, as much as I love the Pacers and wish for their success, I cannot
          justify regularly dishing out a bunches of money for 3 hours at-a-time
          worth of entertainment, when there are many other cost-effective means
          of entertainment available.

          And pain free entertainment too, because after sitting for 3 hours in those
          cramped little seats, sometimes my knees start getting really stiff. And
          stiff knees coupled with a lighter wallet are not a good thing...unless of
          coarse the Pacers put on a good show, get the W, and make it worthwhile.
          Otherwise this fan may be leaving out of there with a negative attitude
          after an uncomfortable experience he doesn't wish to repeat too soon.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Attendance

            Whatever the rank of Indianapolis among US municipalities and whatever you think about Unigov, the population of Marion County is nearly 800,000. The population of Marion and the contiguous counties is nearly 1.7 million.

            Conseco Fieldhouse holds about 20,000 people.

            That means there are enough people within 25 miles of the fieldhouse to fill 85 Conseco Fieldhouses.

            So let's please stop explaining poor attendance on the tiny size of our city. If you want to discuss the television revenues, then, yes, we're a small market and that has implications. But we are not too small a city to fill Conseco Fieldhouse. Find another explanation, please.
            Last edited by Putnam; 12-06-2007, 10:46 AM.
            And I won't be here to see the day
            It all dries up and blows away
            I'd hang around just to see
            But they never had much use for me
            In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Attendance

              Rambo, I understand what you are saying about ticket prices and granted the prices for anything other than balcony seats are rather expensive - although the ticket prices have been lowered in the club level/upper sections 19, 20, 1, and 2 down to $35.00 - which is a good price for those seats.

              But the balcony prices have been lowered across the board to what I believe are reasonable prices.
              There is a couple of sections in the balcony where you can get a full season ticket for 299.00. 45 games at 299.00 is a great bargain. That is $6.65 per game. And that also includes the first row of the balcony. That is a great deal. But even the $10.00 and $20.00 balcony seats are a bargain. And for most games so far, you would have no problem moving down to better seats within the balcony

              I think the seats are rather comfortable, I've never found them to be cramped and little. Now the Colts seats are cramped, little and uncomfortable.


              I completely agree with you Putnam. Just running the numbers, (Conseco did hold 18,345, but when they did the Legends area last season, I think it lowered it down to 18,200 or so) that is not a huge amount of people. The population in the area is more than enough to support the pacers - the problem is right now not enough people want to support them
              Last edited by Unclebuck; 12-06-2007, 10:49 AM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Attendance

                Originally posted by Jose Slaughter View Post
                The core fans will always be there.

                Now that the team is struggling the corporate & casual fans are finding other ways to spend their money.
                I was thinking the same thing until I remembered the various stories from people telling me they or their friend/relative just dropped season tickets after X years because of Y to do with the team, or occasionally just the price. Probably a combination for many.

                Once we win a couple playoff series we'll start to see the corporate & casual fan return.
                I'd say if this team, with such low expectations, went to the second round this year (and doesn't get swept there), that would perk people's interests. If they win a couple as you say and land in the ECF that will definitely get others' attention.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Attendance

                  Originally posted by Putnam View Post
                  Whatever the rank of Indianapolis among US municipalities and whatever you think about Unigov, the population of Marion County is nearly 800,000. The population of Marion and the contiguous counties is nearly 1.7 million.

                  Conseco Fieldhouse holds about 20,000 people.

                  That means there are enough people within 25 miles of the fieldhouse to fill 85 Conseco Fieldhouses.

                  So let's please stop explaining poor attendance on the tiny size of our city. If you want to discuss the television revenues, then, yes, we're a small market and that has implications. But we are not too small a city to fill Conseco Fieldhouse. Find another explanation, please.
                  It's just not that simple.

                  1) Not all can afford it

                  2) Not all are sports fans

                  3) Not all are basketball fans

                  4) Not all are pro basketball fans

                  5) Not all are Indiana Pacers fans

                  6) Not all like the Indiana Pacers right now even if they used to consider themselves fans

                  7) Some have $X to spend on things like this, and would rather go to a Colts game

                  8) Some like to watch on TV more than they like to go in person (not only because TV is "free", but because you get the camera views, announcers with stats and updates).

                  9) Not many want to commit the TIME to going to a lot of Pacers games. I'm a first year season ticket holder, but I'm undecided on how long I can or want to continue to do so because from the time I leave the house to the time I get home, if I make no other stops but to/from the game, I'm committing about 5 hours of my evening, including about half of them being work nights. That's a lot of time, and I'm saying that now while I'm single. When I'm married? When I have kids? I'm just not convinced I'll want to give up 5 hours for that when I have them at home.

                  9b) Gas prices are a *****. If I did nothing else with my car, I'd have to refill it after 3 trips to Conseco from New Castle. That's a lot of money for me, and for many others.

                  10) I'm not convinced these are the only valid reasons people are staying away.

                  And as I recall, even when the 1994 Pacers went to the second and third round, you could get tickets by walking up to the Arena's box office. It's not like Indy flooded the place then, either. As I recall, the ONLY season were the Pacers sold out all year long, was 1999-2000 because A) That Pacers team was very good and very popular B) It was a brand new Fieldhouse that "everyone" wanted to see

                  My conclusion from all of this is that there just are not that many people who either care enough, have the required desire, and/or have the time and money needed to attend Pacers games on a regular basis in this market.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Attendance

                    Mal, my conclusion is simple. You need to move to Indianapolis.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Attendance

                      This is a college basketball state. This state supports the Colts. This state supports it's high school sports. This state does not support the Pacers with the same intensity as the above mentioned.

                      1.7 million may live in the area, but not all of those people like sports enough to go to an event. Not all of those people like sports period. And after they watch Caramel play ball on Friday night, watch the Hoosiers/Purdue/Butler play on Saturday night, watch the Colts play on Sunday. Why would they go to the Fieldhouse to watch the Pacers play 1 of 82 games, in December, on a Tuesday night?

                      How many home games have been on Friday,Saturday, and Sunday? Is it as much as the rest?

                      We have had 5 games at home on those days. Cleveland, Denver, Utah, Dallas, and Miami. All playoff teams last year. All with elite players. 5 out of 10 games are on weekends.

                      Detroit is different. They have had 7 home games. 5 out of 7 games are on the weekend.

                      Some what to make of it? Detroit has always supported their team in recent years, but they have also played the same amount of home games on the weekend as the Pacers have in less overall home games.

                      No matter what I agree we have the people to fill the fieldhouse. But there is no interest. If we continue to play well it may go up. When football hibernates it may go up. When April comes around it will go up. Face it to most NBA fans Nov, Dec, and Jan just does not matter.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Attendance

                        Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
                        Mal, my conclusion is simple. You need to move to Indianapolis.

                        Or just move Louisville, Cincy, Chicago here.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Attendance

                          Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
                          Rambo, I understand what you are saying about ticket prices and granted the prices for anything other than balcony seats are rather expensive - although the ticket prices have been lowered in the club level/upper sections 19, 20, 1, and 2 down to $35.00 - which is a good price for those seats.

                          But the balcony prices have been lowered across the board to what I believe are reasonable prices.
                          There is a couple of sections in the balcony where you can get a full season ticket for 299.00. 45 games at 299.00 is a great bargain. That is $6.65 per game. And that also includes the first row of the balcony. That is a great deal. But even the $10.00 and $20.00 balcony seats are a bargain. And for most games so far, you would have no problem moving down to better seats within the balcony

                          I think the seats are rather comfortable, I've never found them to be cramped and little. Now the Colts seats are cramped, little and uncomfortable.


                          I completely agree with you Putnam. Just running the numbers, (Conseco did hold 18,345, but when they did the Legends area last season, I think it lowered it down to 18,200 or so) that is not a huge amount of people. The population in the area is more than enough to support the pacers - the problem is right now not enough people want to support them

                          The Pepsi corner $299 seats are a good bargain if you plan on attending
                          even just half the home games - for just one person. Personally I like
                          the $25 seats if they are in a good location (IE: situated near center court).

                          But alot of folks aren't looking at getting tickets for just themselves, but at
                          least one other to go with them, if not more...and that adds up fast.

                          For $35 you can easily take a date to a local watering hole, get nice
                          comfortable seats in front of a large screen TV, have a bite to eat along
                          with plenty of cold refreshments. While not the same as being there
                          and being able to cheer the team on in person, it is almost like having the
                          best seats in the house for a sizable fraction of the cost.

                          Sorry about having to be a cheapskate, but I'm not some rich Doctor,
                          or Lawyer, or Pro Athlete who has tons of money handed to them on a
                          silver platter to just throw around on a whim without forethought.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Attendance

                            Originally posted by TheDon View Post
                            If that's the case I've never knew about it, i've just drove around and tried to find an open lot and a reasonably priced one but ones that are within like an 8 block radius seem to start out at like 8-10 dollars and go up after a few hours quite a bit. It could also have been that the games I have went to the lot was full.
                            if you don't mind walking a block just park on the street by The Slippery Noodle for free, thats what I do. Then you can drink some reasonably priced beer and walk to game instead of paying rediculous prices.
                            "As a bearded man, i was very disappointed in Love. I am gathering other bearded men to discuss the status of Kevin Love's beard. I am motioning that it must be shaved."

                            - ilive4sports

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Attendance

                              Originally posted by Mal
                              It's just not that simple.
                              Of course, it isn't. I was responding to the argument that "Indianapolis is too small to support the Pacers." It isn't.

                              Indianapolis and Central Indiana have many times more people and dollars than are needed to support the team. Not all those dollars are spent on leisure, but if you look at leisure spending only Central Indiana still has many times more people and dollars than are needed to support the team.

                              Originally posted by Mal
                              My conclusion from all of this is that there just are not that many people who either care enough, have the required desire, and/or have the time and money needed to attend Pacers games on a regular basis in this market.

                              Sure. And then, do we define the problem as too few people, or not enough interest? I think it becomes much more soluble if we say there are enough people and there is enough leisure money, and then discuss how to raise the Pacers' share of leisure spending and entertainment attendance.

                              I believe the Pacers franchise is going to continue to succeed here in this city. The question is: are we going to succeed like the New York Knicks, or like the Green Bay Packers do? I'm guessin' the latter. And the first step there is to quit worrying about the size of your community.
                              Last edited by Putnam; 12-06-2007, 01:19 PM.
                              And I won't be here to see the day
                              It all dries up and blows away
                              I'd hang around just to see
                              But they never had much use for me
                              In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Attendance

                                Originally posted by Putnam View Post
                                Of course, it isn't. I was responding to the argument that "Indianapolis is too small to support the Pacers." It isn't.

                                Indianapolis and Central Indiana have many times more people and dollars than are needed to support the team. Not all those dollars are spent on leisure, but if you look at leisure spending only Central Indiana still has many times more people and dollars than are needed to support the team.




                                Sure. And then, do we define the problem as too few people, or not enough interest? I think it becomes much more soluble if we say there are enough people and there is enough leisure money, and then discuss how to raise the Pacers' share of leisure spending and entertainment attendance.

                                Thank you for explaining my point better than I did. I didn't want to get into a debate about how city size is calculated. I was just trying to say Indianapolis and it's outlying areas ( all of which are not included in those numbers) provide an ample number of people and dollars. The reason people aren't coming has nothing to do with the size of the city or the amount of money. New restaurants, bars, malls, shopping centers, grocery stores etc.. are popping up all over the place. These places follow people and money. Downtown itself has seen an enormous growth in crazy priced housing. Hell, I don't even have a job and I've been to 5 games this season.
                                I'm in these bands
                                The Humans
                                Dr. Goldfoot
                                The Bar Brawlers
                                ME

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