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Thread: Post-Game Thread: Nash is Clutch

  1. #51
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    Default Re: Post-Game Thread: Nash is Clutch

    One of the things that made me happy other than the fact that we hung with the Suns was the fact there were at least 4 times we'd cut the lead down to 6 or 7 only to see it go back up in double figures. The pacers never rolled over and actually forced D'antoni to put nash back in a little bit longer than I think he would have cared to especially since I believe the Suns have to play Toronto tomorrow night.

    Jermaine most definately has his legs under him and i'm praying that it holds up there was one particular play late in the game where JO went up after a ball and Denari made the comment "look at JO rise over everybody!" and he was moving to the rim for his shots. He still took a few of his fadeaways, I think a couple of those actually went in (thank god) but he really really needs to go towards the rim and if he can't get there then he needs to believe in the team and toss it back out to someone for an easy shot.

    Amare had a lot of layups, dunks, and alley oops giftwrapped by nash one where he literally walked into the paint caught the ball elevelated and drew the foul. For a team that's number one in points in the paint they were abusing us down low, but really that's just Nash being Nash he goes where he wants to and makes crazy unreal passes.

    I think towards the end Tinsley actually got into Nash's head a little bit, I definately think Nash got him into mel mel mode but it really seemed like Nash was forcing the issue as well instead of being calm and collected and slinging the ball around.

    I really don't know what's wrong with Granger it's like every ounce of confidence he had has went right out the window. I don't know how many times i've seen him get the ball dribble and look like he's headed for the basket only to stop at the top of the key and try to pass to anyone he can find. There were also moments where he had the open shot only to pass it off to someone else. Dunleavy phases in and out of existance it's like he'll have an epiphany and realize he needs to be aggressive. Danny on the other hand just looks completely clueless.

    Something that's crazy is not only did Troy lose his starting job, he didn't get ANY minutes tonight at all. I don't like Troy anymore than some other people on here but I would much rather have him on the floor than Rush. I think Rush is even more dead weight than Troy which is pretty hard to accomplish but Rush is worthless.

    I'll be suprised if anybody really reads all that lol.

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    Default Re: Post-Game Thread: Nash is Clutch

    Hard to be mad tonight given the effort we put forth. Sucks to lose, but it wasn't an anger-inducing loss. We hanged tough with one of the best teams in the past 4 years running.

    Stoudemire torched us but we played very good defense. He hit a lot of jump shots tonight; it wasn't that he was getting a bunch of dunks.

    I don't know where that T on Harrison came from. I didn't see the foul they called prior to that, either. I did however see Harrison from the huddle during the final timeout get the ref's attention, make sarcastic love gestures to him, then hold his hand to his mouth with his index and thumb in a ring with the other 3 out to imply that the ref was smoking something. Keep in mind this is all while the ref is looking at him and talking to him from across the court. Can't say I felt that was a good move by David. Still think he got hosed earlier though.

    I haven't looked at the actual numbers, but it felt like we had a sub-par night hitting the 3. Just a couple more and we'd be in a different ending IMO. Still, the real killer was all of those jumpers Amare was nailing.

    I'm also a little worried about when JO gets the ball, the others clear out and/or stop moving. Can't have that often.

    Also, Jermaine hit a LOT of shots tonight; I expect him to cool over the long haul. Nice for this evening, though.

    Ultimately I was mostly happy with what we were doing, and if we don't drop back (often), we'll be in the playoffs and possibly the second round.

    P.S. Troy is officially in the dog house if tonight is anything to go by. Didn't play at all.

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    Default Re: Post-Game Thread: Nash is Clutch

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDon View Post
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    Something that's crazy is not only did Troy lose his starting job, he didn't get ANY minutes tonight at all. I don't like Troy anymore than some other people on here but I would much rather have him on the floor than Rush. I think Rush is even more dead weight than Troy which is pretty hard to accomplish but Rush is worthless.
    The Suns are pretty much the worst possible matchup in the league for Troy Murphy. He would have been a complete liability out there tonight. JOB was wise to realize this.

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    Default Re: Post-Game Thread: Nash is Clutch

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Despite Marion defending him....I subscribe to your theory too. Granger just doesn't seem to be playing very well over the last couple of games. Is there a difference in how Harrison, Foster or Murphy controls the paint that is different then how JONeal does it?

    Ever since JONeal's return, including his 7-16 scoring against Portland, he has shot a total of 17-56 ( 30% ) from the field.

    I'm not going to put all of it on JONeal's return and how it has affected the offensive rhythm of the team......cuz just like JONeal has to adjust to the new offense, I agree that the rest of the team...in this case Granger.....has to adjust to his presense as well on the court.

    I wonder if there is anything else that is affecting his shooting......possible injury of some sort that is affecting his shooting or even loss in confidence.

    Actually there is a big difference in the way Troy, david, and foster play the 4 and 5 spot.

    Troy simply hits the 3 point line, posts up, sets a screen and runs back to the 3 point line.

    Jeff and David play close to the same. Alot of picks and rolls with tinsley. while jeff doesnt really roll so much to the basket you will usually see david sprint to the basket knowing if he catches it, its automatic 2 points.

    David also posts up but it is typically in the low low post. He likes his man right under the basket. JO likes to post up a few feet inside the free throw line.

    I want to observe some more to see how granger adapts. I also want to see what happens in 2 weeks when our man IKE comes back.

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    Default Re: Post-Game Thread: Nash is Clutch

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Nash is supernatural. I truly wonder if he sold his soul to the devil.

    He gets 17 assists and is averaging over 50% from the field and nearly 50% from 3....playing better than ever IMO. How can this guy at nearly 34 years old continue to improve?
    maybe he made friends with some baseball players

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    Default Re: Post-Game Thread: Nash is Clutch

    The foul on Harrison was baloney, the Suns player was pushing Dave away, and Dave had ahold of his arm. Now who caused the foul. And the tech for what. Still a great game

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    Default Re: Post-Game Thread: Nash is Clutch

    yeah that foul on Harrison was indeed a bad call...and im not too sure about the tech foul either...ah well. thats all in the past. time to look to the future.

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    Default Re: Post-Game Thread: Nash is Clutch

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I thought late game decision-making by the Pacers was atrocious. I didn't have a problem with that final 3 attempt by Danny but I'm talking the previous possessions. Of special ire goes to Dunleavy when he decided that a particular possession was his alone.

    I'm still not that enamored of Tinsley's 'clutchness' so when he calls his own number late in a game there are several "No...No... No... YES!" moments as well as "No... No.... NO! Why did he think that could ever work?" moments. I don't have the trust in his shot that some of you do. He got a crunchtime basket... and he ate one...

    I'm not sure JO should even touch the ball in crunch time. As the physicality of the game intensifies, and as the refs forget their whistles, JO is typically relegated to his patented fade away clanker.

    I just don't know why we can't run our offense and try and get a shot in the flow rather than people going into 'hero mode'.

    But the Pacers did play hard. They just aren't in the same maturity level as the Suns. That's clear when time is short and the score is close. One team stepped up and the other just seemed to be out of sync.

    -Bball
    This is precisely the point I made. In fact, the crunchtime possessions in this game reminded me of how we handled the end of the Cleveland game. All of a sudden it becomes one player dribbling through the majority of the shot clock while the others just kind of stand around gawking.

    I know one-on-one isolation is a common option for crucial possession in the NBA, but when a team is playing so well together for an entire game in its system predicated on passing, cutting, and sharing, why go away from that?

    On the Dunleavy one, I think he got caught with the ball fairly deep in the shot clock and new his only alternative was to manufacture something. Thing is that he's not particularly effective in that role. Really, IMO, we don't have anybody that effective in that type of isolation style, at least not consistently.

    Now, I'm asking myself will (or are) opponents trying to usher us into this type of approach in their defense late in games? Arguably, it's to their advantage and they are probably more than happy to allow or encourage us to go in this direction.

    This is my only real criticism/concern in an otherwise excellent performance.

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    Default Re: Post-Game Thread: Nash is Clutch

    I look at the Dunleavy possession a little differently. Granted the end result was horrible. But the intention was OK. The play the pacers were trying to run completely broke down, the shot clock was winding down, no one was open (I was looking) IMO Dunleavy had no other option than to try and get the best shot he could. You cannot throw the ball to Jeff with 3 seconds on the shot clock. JO was not open. JT was too far from the basket and not in a good position to create. Dainels was along the baseline and not open. Perhaps Mike should have called a timeout with 4 seconds on the shot clock. But Mike did the only thing he could do in that situation.

    I certainly don't believe for one second that Mike wanted to be the hero - he was forced into that situation by good Suns defense

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    Default Re: Post-Game Thread: Nash is Clutch

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan_The_Dude View Post
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    I think the snow threat may have kept some from making the trip.
    Then those people need to watch the weather forecast, because unless you were travelling from about an hour to the northwest, you would have known the snow wasn't going to start until well after the game ended

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    Default Re: Post-Game Thread: Nash is Clutch

    Quote Originally Posted by D-BONE View Post
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    This is precisely the point I made. In fact, the crunchtime possessions in this game reminded me of how we handled the end of the Cleveland game. All of a sudden it becomes one player dribbling through the majority of the shot clock while the others just kind of stand around gawking.

    I know one-on-one isolation is a common option for crucial possession in the NBA, but when a team is playing so well together for an entire game in its system predicated on passing, cutting, and sharing, why go away from that?

    On the Dunleavy one, I think he got caught with the ball fairly deep in the shot clock and new his only alternative was to manufacture something. Thing is that he's not particularly effective in that role. Really, IMO, we don't have anybody that effective in that type of isolation style, at least not consistently.

    Now, I'm asking myself will (or are) opponents trying to usher us into this type of approach in their defense late in games? Arguably, it's to their advantage and they are probably more than happy to allow or encourage us to go in this direction.

    This is my only real criticism/concern in an otherwise excellent performance.
    Dunleavy got the ball for the 2nd time in that possession with 13 seconds left on the clock and dribbled out the clock to a pointwhere he had 1 second for a desperation heave.
    He could have passed the ball on at least 3 occassions during that "run"

    Tins was expecting the ball back with 11 seconds on the clock, but Miek saw something that when he tried it wasn't there, then Mike panicked.

    He fell after the shot, preventing people from going back almost, and on the break Nash hit "the" 3pt with the only one back to defend was Tins.
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    Default Re: Post-Game Thread: Nash is Clutch

    One huge key was that Amare picked up his 5th foul with about 6 minutes left in the game, and he stayed in the game the rest of the way.

    The Suns also started to double team JO hard in the last 4 or 5 minutes.

    Maybe I need to take another look at the Dunleavy play - I thought he really had no choice especially as the clock was winding down. That was one play where it did hurt having jeff in there, because Jeff was open

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    Default Re: Post-Game Thread: Nash is Clutch

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Nash is supernatural. I truly wonder if he sold his soul to the devil.

    He gets 17 assists and is averaging over 50% from the field and nearly 50% from 3....playing better than ever IMO. How can this guy at nearly 34 years old continue to improve?
    The answer is obvious. He uses steroids of course Jokes aside, he is pretty amazing. I was at the game last night and actually left thinking "Man, Nash actually didn't have a great night until the final minute." Then I got home and checked the box score and saw his 18 points and 17 assists. It was like he did it without trying. Crazy.

    And Amare was just lights out last night too. We let him catch the ball WAY too deep a number of times. It may have helped if David hadn't have gotten in foul trouble so we had someone big enough to force him away from the basket for more of the game. Even considering that though, he was dropping jumpers from 18-20 feet out all night too. Not much you can do about that.. that's Garnett-esque.

    On a side note, I was really disappointed with the crowd, especially in the first half. I know it's usually more calm before halftime, but I figured there would be some kind of energy from the fans, considering the opponent. But I swear there was this one timeout where you literally could hear the air circulating in the building. We were sitting near a bunch of Suns fans and they were laughing and making quips about how dead it was and that they were going to fall asleep. I have to wonder if the lack of crowd energy has a noticeable effect on the energy of the players out there.

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    Default Re: Post-Game Thread: Nash is Clutch

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Nash is supernatural. I truly wonder if he sold his soul to the devil.

    He gets 17 assists and is averaging over 50% from the field and nearly 50% from 3....playing better than ever IMO. How can this guy at nearly 34 years old continue to improve?
    THe Arizona sun is thawing out the canadian glacier on his legs?

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    Default Re: Post-Game Thread: Nash is Clutch

    I have something I was thinking about. I do not have stats to back this up but I tend to remember last year amar having monster games against us and JO have a monster game against the suns. There was alot of amar is better than jo and then jo is better than amar. I wonder if their is a reason why these 2 guys play well against each other

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    Default Re: Post-Game Thread: Nash is Clutch

    Quote Originally Posted by justinDOHMAN View Post
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    I have something I was thinking about. I do not have stats to back this up but I tend to remember last year amar having monster games against us and JO have a monster game against the suns. There was alot of amar is better than jo and then jo is better than amar. I wonder if their is a reason why these 2 guys play well against each other
    I think you're referring to this game.

    http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=270227011

    JO outplayed Amare, but Stoudemire's 11 offensive rebounds killed us and Phoenix won the game.
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    Default Re: Post-Game Thread: Nash is Clutch

    That Dunleav Shot clock shot, was the nail in the coffin. . Tinsley was screaming to get the ball to him. Dun should've done that. . .if he did we would have won the game.

    And that is Nash's sweet spot. He don't miss from there. . just ask San Antonio
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    Default Re: Post-Game Thread: Nash is Clutch

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDon View Post
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    One of the things that made me happy other than the fact that we hung with the Suns was the fact there were at least 4 times we'd cut the lead down to 6 or 7 only to see it go back up in double figures. The pacers never rolled over and actually forced D'antoni to put nash back in a little bit longer than I think he would have cared to especially since I believe the Suns have to play Toronto tomorrow night.

    Jermaine most definately has his legs under him and i'm praying that it holds up there was one particular play late in the game where JO went up after a ball and Denari made the comment "look at JO rise over everybody!" and he was moving to the rim for his shots. He still took a few of his fadeaways, I think a couple of those actually went in (thank god) but he really really needs to go towards the rim and if he can't get there then he needs to believe in the team and toss it back out to someone for an easy shot.

    Amare had a lot of layups, dunks, and alley oops giftwrapped by nash one where he literally walked into the paint caught the ball elevelated and drew the foul. For a team that's number one in points in the paint they were abusing us down low, but really that's just Nash being Nash he goes where he wants to and makes crazy unreal passes.

    I think towards the end Tinsley actually got into Nash's head a little bit, I definately think Nash got him into mel mel mode but it really seemed like Nash was forcing the issue as well instead of being calm and collected and slinging the ball around.

    I really don't know what's wrong with Granger it's like every ounce of confidence he had has went right out the window. I don't know how many times i've seen him get the ball dribble and look like he's headed for the basket only to stop at the top of the key and try to pass to anyone he can find. There were also moments where he had the open shot only to pass it off to someone else. Dunleavy phases in and out of existance it's like he'll have an epiphany and realize he needs to be aggressive. Danny on the other hand just looks completely clueless.

    Something that's crazy is not only did Troy lose his starting job, he didn't get ANY minutes tonight at all. I don't like Troy anymore than some other people on here but I would much rather have him on the floor than Rush. I think Rush is even more dead weight than Troy which is pretty hard to accomplish but Rush is worthless.

    I'll be suprised if anybody really reads all that lol.

    Your taking about that beautiful turnaround JO Go To Move that went in swish. .. JO was in the Zone that game. Watch when he's 100% He's going to be deadly. I expect Indiana to make a huge run when he does.

    If Danny, Dun, Oneal And Tins are A Game. Teams better watch out. I think Danny's struggle is because JO is back in the rotation. THAT"S 4 guys you can't sleep on in the lineup
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    Default Re: Post-Game Thread: Nash is Clutch

    BETWEEN QUIS LEGS!!!!!

    Sure Barbosa was fouled so Nash got no assist, but come on already. This wasn't the 4 foot between the legs gimmick pass either. This was a bounce pass from just inside the arc to the baseline, right at waist level when it got there, and THROUGH QUIS' LEGS on the way to him.

    Ack, THAT is all!!!


    I'm starting to think that Nash is the greatest passing PG ever, and yes I'm including Magic and Stockton. He throws out 25-30 fluid, sharp, hard-angle passes every game. It's really insane, well beyond just all star flash too.

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    Default Re: Post-Game Thread: Nash is Clutch

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    From the midpoint of the second quarter on - the Pacers played as well and as hard as they possibly can. The effort was outstanding, JO played as hard as I think I've ever seen him and of coruse Foster was all over the court.

    While I'm disappointed the Pacers lost, overall I'm very encouraged the way the Pacers have played lately - and tonight they played as hard as I've seen a Pacerts team play in more than a few years.

    Suns are just better - they have better players.
    On the Pacers aspect, I'm feeling like you are. On one hand I had this team in the mid 20's for wins, so the effort so far and in this game are well beyond expectations. This isn't the team from the final 3 months.

    OTOH, the reason they made a trade last year was because the team was stuck at .500. They also dumped the coach. So from that view my attitude is "well, let's see it". We had .500 ball last year and statement losses at home don't fix that.

    Great effort, the team does seem to be coming together, but if you are forgoing the rebuild and apparently in for the long haul with JO, Troy, Mike, Tins, Danny, Shawne and Ike (the last 3 due to being your star prospects) then you need to win games like this and push toward that 4 seed area. Start raising some real eyebrows.


    By the players, JO and Tins stood out. Both had sloppy TOs in the 1st, but overall for the game they were great. The much praised defense was sliced up pretty well by PHX, but maybe that's just too tough a test right now. On offense they seem to be finding some chemistry, at least among the core players.

    That includes JO who had some nice PnR action with Mike going that got both of them good looks several times on the night.


    I think Danny has been hurt a bit by JO coming back because it redefines his offensive role somewhat. Ultimately I think it will help him because it means less pressure, but right now he's more confused than anything. Give him time with JO/Tins/Dun as the group he's with and I think he'll be fine, or actually far better than fine.


    Troy's been awful, no 2 ways about that. Sucks for him (and us really) but hopefully he respects the fact that it's on him and not just arbitrary. He's had plenty of PT to show more than he has up till now, and I'm sure he'll continue to get chances. But that contract and his play show you why GS was ready to move him and why he clamps the Pacers financially. JO you could trade, even a week ago, but Troy? I have serious doubts. Too many guys do what he does for a lot cheaper. JO might be a poor deal, but at least he offers something harder to come by, thus justifying the overpayment due to rarity.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 12-05-2007 at 01:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Post-Game Thread: Nash is Clutch

    I know that for a high-volume team like the Suns that it's difficult to limit how well they do.....but for all those that did watch the game....how was the overall defense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    I think Danny has been hurt a bit by JO coming back because it redefines his offensive role somewhat. Ultimately I think it will help him because it means less pressure, but right now he's more confused than anything. Give him time with JO/Tins/Dun as the group he's with and I think he'll be fine, or actually far better than fine.
    I hope that this is the case.
    Last edited by CableKC; 12-05-2007 at 01:57 PM.
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    Default Re: Post-Game Thread: Nash is Clutch

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Another Cincy fan! Nice. I'll probably drive up at least once this season, I'll let you know when we do.

    I missed the first half, but Jermaine looked good in the second half. Very quick decisions.

    I'm not sure about the box score giving him 0 assists... I saw at least one definite assist on a Tinsley three.
    That late 3 by Dunleavy, that was out of a reversal started from JO being doubled in the post. No assist of course, but the point of his effort in the team passing is made.

    Early in the first he had a thread-the-needle pass into Tinsley in the lane who was so surrounded that he actually kicked it out rather than chuck and yell "AND ONE!".

    I don't care if everyone thinks I'm full of it, JO is a good passing big at this point, and really has been the prior 2 seasons as well. Gotta have some targets that can drop the shots, as well as guys that know how to cut off his post game (Mike does, I think Foster too, but Danny...).


    Cable - Defense? Well I can't praise it really, though I did like the effort to help on guys getting open without the ball. They did show nice effort in that pseudo-zone where guys see someone slipping open and cover just enough to deter passing to them. However the Suns ripped the Pacers on the same high post PnR play down the stretch several times in a row. Nash would PnR, dump to the other high post on the roll, and that would draw help from down low which the pass would go past to that low post player for the layup. Fool me once... It was shades of the US Dream Team vs Greece.

    It's so tough to judge though. Amare hit a lot of jumpers and Nash just slings the rock like a freaking video game. Just look at my post about his pass between Daniels legs, nothing you can do to stop something that technically perfect. So the Pacers had trouble recognizing a lot of the Suns' passing lanes, but at times were pretty solid when manned-up.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 12-05-2007 at 02:10 PM.

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