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Thread: Our point guard situation disturbs me

  1. #1
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Our point guard situation disturbs me

    Owens and Ballboy both got DNP-CDs tonight. Quis played every moment that Tinsley was off the court, and none that he was on. This is a problem.

    Over the summer I thought we had an embarrassment of riches at the PG spot. Owens looked good in summer league, Diener was a big-time shooter with "swagger," and I had foolish hope against hope that Tinsley would become a new player under Obie. I didn't think it would happen, but I had hope.

    Now look at us. Tinsley is off the charts amazingly good... better than I'd dared hope. But Diener has been flat-out awful. I haven't seen enough of Owens to have an opinion, but evidently Jim has one and it's not good. So we have Marquis running the point, and he's forcing things. It's not his best position... he seems to play better off the ball. Maybe he'll get it, so I'm open to giving him time. But if he goes out with an injury, or (much worse) if we lose Tinsley for any amount of time, we are absolutely toast.

    We should be thinking about trades. We need to acquire a good backup point guard. I don't know who gets moved to make it happen, but it needs to happen. Farmar, Jack, JC Superstar, Brevin Knight, I don't care. But this is not a good long-term situation.
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    Feed the big fella. Infinite MAN_force's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our point guard situation disturbs me

    We should have resigned Keith Mcleod instead of bringing in Diener.
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    Remember #31 dohman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our point guard situation disturbs me

    anthem I fully agree with you. In the preseason I thought all the PG problems we have had since mark jackson left might actually be over. What is it about the pacers that makes PG's lose their shot. First is was saraunus and now travis.

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    Default Re: Our point guard situation disturbs me

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    We should have signed anyone with feet instead of bringing in Diener.
    Fixed.
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    Default Re: Our point guard situation disturbs me

    tradewise...i would see what kind of trade we could make with houston, portland or seattle. all three have logjams at PG (james/alston/francis/head/brooks, west/watson/ridenour and blake/jack/rodriguez/green). portland seems more likely.

    it does look like deciding to take our chances with diener over keith was a poor one but you can't really blame TPTB for that, bringing in obrien, the pacers desperately need shooting, keith isn't a shooter and diener is... the problem is diener's shooting hasn't been there.

    i'm not totally why andre can't see any time off the bench. he has seemingly played well (especially defensively) in the limited minutes he's received.
    This is the darkest timeline.

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    Feed the big fella. Infinite MAN_force's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our point guard situation disturbs me

    I could live with dieners shortcomings if he was really money from three like he is supposed to be... I just don't understand how he could suddenly be shooting so poorly.
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    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our point guard situation disturbs me

    I think part of the problem with Diener is his previous experience was too limited to really gauge his ability to be a threat from three. Coming into the season, he'd only shot 107 3's. Granger already had 81 attempts thru 17 games this season. We are talking about a guy who has 23 free throw attempts in his career. After the Suns game Jamaal will have played more minutes this season than Travis has in his career. That's something to consider. It's really something that should have been considered prior to his 3 year deal. Did other teams have this guy on speed dial this off-season?

    Owens has even less experience but he is from Indy.

    There's room on the roster to sign a free agent but no money in the pocket. Plus all of the free agents are either too old, no better than what we have or holding out for too much money.

    He aren't we still paying Green. He's not doing anything is he?

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    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our point guard situation disturbs me

    After looking at some of Diner's stats, I'm really amazed at the expectations many of us had for this guy. He will set career season highs with 12 more rebounds, 13 more assists, 5 steals, 11 appearances, 26 FG attempts, 4 TO's and 54 points.

    We've done a pretty good job at over rating the backup point guards the last few years really. Wasn't everybody at some point early on pretty high on Orien, Snap, Diener, Owens and some were even calling for McLeod to be the starter this season. AJ, Runi, DA & Strickland were nothing spectacular but at least contributed at some level. I think Jamaal or Daniels going down for an extended period of time will force them to trade somebody they don't want to give up on.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Our point guard situation disturbs me

    Tinsley is 6th in the league in assists/gm, up there with the top PGs in the league. That would be terrible if we lost that.

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    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our point guard situation disturbs me

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDoddage View Post
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    Tinsley is 6th in the league in assists/gm, up there with the top PGs in the league. That would be terrible if we lost that.
    I couldn't agree more.

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    Default Re: Our point guard situation disturbs me

    I'm not ready to give up on Diener or Owens just yet. Though I am worried about the minutes Tins is having to play. It's just one month into the season, 80% of the season is left. In the mean time I hope they're keeping an eye open for available backup PG's.
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    Default Re: Our point guard situation disturbs me

    Diener was a no cost pickup that if he did good Bird would look like he struck gold. However if he failed (which so far is the case) then it's hard to fault anyone on this because of the cost.

    However we desperately need to get someone in here to help run the point for a few min. a game.

    God help us if Jamaal goes down with an injury of some kind.

    Keith McCloud was fine by me but I bet he wanted the lower level exemption at least.

    Jamaal has really and truely done a 180 this season and he keeps talking about how nice it is to have a coaching staff finally have faith in him.

    I have no real gripes about his play, sure he could be a better defender, but when you run an open style like we do you have to give the PG the power to miss some shots and make a bad pass. Just as long as they don't overdue it which Jamaal is not.

    However, I don't care about any history of this guy at all when I say this, but even the healthiest of pg's get injured and very very few can go for this many min. for the length of a season.


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    Default Re: Our point guard situation disturbs me

    I'm not to worried about the situation.

    I think that Travis can play. He just doesn't have any confidence right now. Give him some time. He has very little NBA experience. One thing I do know about him is that the Magic fans sure liked him it seemed. I think they liked him a lot more than Carlos Arroyo.

    As for Owens I don't know what you expect. He can give us some good defense here and there but he is a third stringer. I'm fine with him on the roster but never thought he would give us big time production.

    I'll say this I would love to get Luther Head from the Rockets. I know that Luther is a shooter and a good athlete. I don't know that he can play the point any better than Marqius though.

    I don't think we have a lot of good opitions to get an upgrade at the backup point guard spot to be honest. I don't know what we would give up for anyone decent.

    I'm not to worried about it. Jamaal is a big part of this team and he is going to have to play a lot of minutes being the point guard. There is only one point guard. Jamaal plays 34 minutes a game. It's a lot but not enough to have me worried. He will be fine.

    I think that if Diener would play some defense then Jim would play him. Diener's offense will come with time but his defense is what is keeping him out of games, atleast that is what i'm thinking.
    Last edited by Young; 12-03-2007 at 03:26 AM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Our point guard situation disturbs me

    I thought McCleod played decent for the time he was here and coming to a new team. Wonder what he's making this year compared to Deiner? He was in the alleged bar fight which might have had something to do with him being gone. It shut the door on Snap when he was hangin with Jax... Of course he would still be in the league if played D like Jaxs.
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    Default Re: Our point guard situation disturbs me

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    He aren't we still paying Green. He's not doing anything is he?
    Orien Greene recently signed with the New Zealand Breakers in the NBL (Australia/NZ league). Should play his first game this weekend.

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    Default Re: Our point guard situation disturbs me

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Diener was a no cost pickup that if he did good Bird would look like he struck gold. However if he failed (which so far is the case) then it's hard to fault anyone on this because of the cost.

    However we desperately need to get someone in here to help run the point for a few min. a game.

    God help us if Jamaal goes down with an injury of some kind.

    Keith McCloud was fine by me but I bet he wanted the lower level exemption at least.

    Jamaal has really and truely done a 180 this season and he keeps talking about how nice it is to have a coaching staff finally have faith in him.

    I have no real gripes about his play, sure he could be a better defender, but when you run an open style like we do you have to give the PG the power to miss some shots and make a bad pass. Just as long as they don't overdue it which Jamaal is not.

    However, I don't care about any history of this guy at all when I say this, but even the healthiest of pg's get injured and very very few can go for this many min. for the length of a season.
    I fully aggree with what Peck wrote here and what Anthem wrote in his opening post here, including the positive part about Jamaal and the fact that we do need a backup PG that can meaningfully fill in when called upon.

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    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our point guard situation disturbs me

    just wanted to clarify travis diener's contract. he's not that cheap - he's guaranteed almost $5m over the next 3 years. that's first round pick money - about what danny and shawne are pulling in and roughly 2x the min.

    generally, you sign scrubs to min. 1 year deals only. why not? every year there are plenty of scrubs who are happy to take minimum deals. if they show anything then you can sign them to a longer deal next time.

    if you sign a guy for 3 years though, you're expecting him to be in the rotation - else why would he need to stick around that long?

    so diener to me has been a huge disappointment so far. can't help wondering whether keith mcleod would have been a better choice.
    would he have signed for that 3 year $5m contract that diener got?

  18. #18
    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our point guard situation disturbs me

    Quote Originally Posted by skyfire View Post
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    Orien Greene recently signed with the New Zealand Breakers in the NBL (Australia/NZ league). Should play his first game this weekend.
    heard about that but wondered why he didn't sign for the d-league instead. well, the nbl probably pays better. but in the d-league he could have improved his pg skills and his shooting. with that improvement together with his already nba-level defense, he's sure to get a call-up some time. in fact he started a few games for sacramento this season before they got udrih, so it's not like he's off the nba radar.

    not dissing the nbl, but orien will probably be the most athletic guy on the breakers. not a good incentive for improving one's skills.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our point guard situation disturbs me

    This was a big topic of conversation at the forum party. If Tinsley goes down we are in trouble, if Tinsley goes down and Daniels is injured we are in deep, deep trouble.

    I made the point that I would like to see what Diener would do if he was forced to play 30 minutes a game for a two weeks worth of games. I believe he would at least start hitting some shots. The Pacers would suffer, but maybe he could re-gain some confidence.

    But the pacers need to acquire a better back-up because Tinsley cannot continue to play this many hard minutes and Daniels is too injury prone.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Our point guard situation disturbs me

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    This was a big topic of conversation at the forum party. If Tinsley goes down we are in trouble, if Tinsley goes down and Daniels is injured we are in deep, deep trouble.
    Okay, suppose that happens.

    Who can play point for us besides Deiner and Owens?

    Shawne? Granger? I can't see it.

    Maybe Dunleavey could do a point forward thing.
    .

    .

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    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our point guard situation disturbs me

    That's the problem. Nobody else can really play the point. I suppose Granger & Dunleavy could be counted on to play a few sequences at the one but not an entire game. Defense would be a real experience too. Can you imagine Danny trying to guard some of the quicker points?

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    Default Re: Our point guard situation disturbs me

    Beno was my hope. I know I sound like a homer. But the dude would have complemented JT pretty well.

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    Default Re: Our point guard situation disturbs me

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    just wanted to clarify travis diener's contract. he's not that cheap - he's guaranteed almost $5m over the next 3 years. that's first round pick money - about what danny and shawne are pulling in and roughly 2x the min.
    so diener was our first round pick this year -- and he had actually logged NBA minutes before... albeit not many. thats why i'm not torn up about the situation. the guy was basically a rookie given the limited opportunities he had stuck behind nelson and arroyo in orlando.

    generally, you sign scrubs to min. 1 year deals only. why not? every year there are plenty of scrubs who are happy to take minimum deals. if they show anything then you can sign them to a longer deal next time.
    yup we did this too with owens, graham and rush. we took a gamble on diener. like i said before he is essentially a draft pick.

    if you sign a guy for 3 years though, you're expecting him to be in the rotation - else why would he need to stick around that long?
    we obviously did expect him to be part of the rotation. so far he hasn't delivered. i'm not ready to give up on him yet -- like unclebuck mentioned it'd be interesting to see what diener would do when forced to play 25-30 minutes a game. maybe, like hicks has suggested, he rises to the occassion and produces beno-like numbers. unfortunately i don't see how we do that without risking losses and we're not a rebuilding project...

    so diener to me has been a huge disappointment so far. can't help wondering whether keith mcleod would have been a better choice.
    would he have signed for that 3 year $5m contract that diener got?
    right now in theory yes. but you can hardly blame bird... as i mentioned above:

    DIENER: 3pt shooter (at least in theory)
    MCLEOD: not a 3pt shooter

    what were we missing last season? shooting.

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Okay, suppose that happens.

    Who can play point for us besides Deiner and Owens?

    Shawne? Granger? I can't see it.

    Maybe Dunleavey could do a point forward thing.
    that would be really the only option, outside of diener and owens.

    and it might not be a terrible thing to have dunleavy do some of that before there is an injury. mainly because he is the "let the game come to me" -- maybe running the offense would force him to get more involved and more aggressive.
    This is the darkest timeline.

  24. #24
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our point guard situation disturbs me

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    However, I don't care about any history of this guy at all when I say this, but even the healthiest of pg's get injured and very very few can go for this many min. for the length of a season.
    Agree completely.

    Nice to be agreeing with you again, Peck.
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  25. #25

    Default Re: Our point guard situation disturbs me

    I don't see how putting your two best players out there at point equals having a difficult point guard situation. We essentially have 4 PG's at this point. You want more of them?

    Diener will be fine as a filler. If something happens as far as injury, we can deal with it then. I can't agree with making a move or trade for something that may never happen.

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