I mean, if the argument is that Foster's the best big man defender in the game today, but that the guys who have all retired were better, then it's hard to use that as an slam against Jeff.
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Duncan in particular knows how to play vs. the pick and roll better than anyone. The Spurs really know how to take away those 2 man games.
Elite? Probably not.
Ben Wallace might have been a couple of years ago, but not today.
Marcus Camby certainly is a good defender however I consider Marcus a great shot blocker but a weak interior defender.
Rasheed Wallace is a good defender, Yao Ming is a good defender but I think that has a lot more to do with size than anything.
Kevin Garnett can be, when motivated, an almost elite defender. But he doesn't do it night in and night out to really be considered elite all of the time so I will put him as a great defender.
BTW, the irony of all of this is that many of you claim that Jermaine O'Neal is a great defender.
So to answer your first question, no I don't believe that there truely are any big men elite defenders anymore.
But I still would not rank Jeff up there with even the great big men defenders of today.
However I would say that he is on the upper end of the very good defenders and since he is using his strength more I think he is getting better.
I think for what Jeff does. And by that I mean he guards the quick centers, the mobile power forwards one-on-one as well as anyone in the NBA right now. I would put him up there with Sheed and Garnett in this part of defense.
However, Jeff doesn't control the paint, he doesn't block shots, he doesn't patrol the backside of your defense like a lot of the other big guys do. So I'm not suggesting he's a great defender overall. But in his niche he is excellent.
He is now actually obtaining real rebounds, not chasing down loose balls and being credited with rebounds
What? I don't buy that statement one iota. Are you saying that there are degrees of rebounding and one counts more than another. I don't care if he snags one off the rim or ten feet from the basket it still is a freaking rebound.
Gee, I'll say it if Peck doesn't want to. It is true that wiping the glass and picking a ball up off the floor both count equally as a rebound. But that is where the similarity ends.
You help your team a whole lot more with aggressive up-in-the-air rebounding, because that allows the quick outlet pass that triggers a fast break.
Plus it is a whole lot more fun to see Foster pull one down.
And I won't be here to see the day
It all dries up and blows away
I'd hang around just to see
But they never had much use for me
In Levelland. (James McMurtry)
I don't think Yao is a good defender. Sure his size makes him a factor. But teams put him in pick and rolls all the time - and they try to get him out of the lane and when they do he's a major liability.
In other words, instead of picking off flesh from the dead, he's hunting for fresh meat. Tougher to get, better taste.
Might as well say that a dunk is clearly more valuable than a layup or a short jumper, because it shows that the offensive player was able to get into the paint powerfully, and because it's a big deal for momentum. If you want to argue that, then I'll listen to you talk about some rebounds being more valuable than others.
EDIT: If only Jeff would do an Antonio Davis yell and bring his elbows out when he came down, THEN he'd be an effective rebounder.
Last edited by Anthem; 12-04-2007 at 10:39 AM.
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Yeah that part was weak, which is why I had all these other sentences you ignored.....
Well stated. Any rebound has basically the same affect, either you retain possession on offense or you regain possession for your offense. How you get the rebound is not a factor in the end. I would agree that a powerful showboating rebound can get the crowd into the game more than just a loose ball rebound but in the end it is just a rebound.
Of course any rebound has the same effect once you've gotten it. Tougher rebounds are harder to come by, which is why players who get them are more valuable than ones who predominately get "easy" rebounds on loose balls they chase down. A guard could grab those. A small forward too. They're easier to get. But if you've got a guy who can bang and battle for tough rebounds in or around the paint, you're gaining ADDITIONAL possessions that a team that "only" chases loose balls doesn't get.
I view this as a debate on which came first the chicken or the egg. I think you are discounting the difficulty of getting those loose ball rebounds. If a gaurd or small forward could get those type of rebounds on this team, then why don't they? Foster is getting them because they can't or won't get them.
If someone doesn't get those so called easy rebounds then they are not additional possessions. If they were so easy to get then why don't our gaurds average 10 per game?
Late in the game, when the ref's swallow their whistles and allow things to get physical under the basket (let alone a team crashing the boards on you)... and someone needs to fight for THAT rebound to save the game (either taking away the opposition's second chance or getting your own team another shot) ... That is a wholly different situation than can be at other times in the game.
You have to be able and willing to fight for position and get to THAT ball while dealing with more muscle coming your way.
That is something that Dale Davis was excellent at.
Both kinds of rebounding styles and abilities are important, but only one kind becomes even more important at crunch time.
Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.
"A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."
I agree on the rebounding thing.
I'm not trying to take anything away from Jeff's ability to rebound the basketball because he's one of the best there's ever been...but Mal, Bball, etc. do make a valid point.
Jeff is a not a "banger" like Dale, Charles Oakley, Deke or Chuckster.
He's not a "leaper" like KG, Admiral or Shawn Marion.
He's more or a "chaser" who instinctually knows where the ball is going before anyone else. He uses positioning to get there and grabs the ball.
This is of course an oversimplification of rebounding, and different guys do it in multiple different ways (such as Rodman who was a banger, leaper and a chaser). But I think it is correct that Jeff does have that knack of "catching people napping" and just being more focused on finding the ball than other people over the course of a game. In the waning minutes (particularly at Playoff intensity) you can't really do this. You gotta have position. And while Jeff is also very good at this, he can't exactly impose his will on the paint the way, say, Dwight Howard can. It's not a knock on him, he just doesn't look like a Greek statue the way Dwight does. He's not as strong.
If there was a shot going up and I absolutely needed to rebound the miss in order to ice the game, I'd still take Jeff over about 99% of the people who have ever played in the NBA. But that other 1% would be guys like Dale, Oak, Shaq, Dwight or Dikembe. With those guys, you just know they'll have inside position. There is something to be said for being the strongest, widest or biggest guy on the court when it comes to eating glass.
Yeah, I was certainly with you on this one. So many people were writing off Jeff under JOB. "Not his style". Same reason that Troy was going to flourish.
Turns out that Jeff works well with any style and has shown some vet savvy in adapting his game to JOB's style. The 3 guys that look the most sure of what they should be doing right now are - Jeff, Tins, Dunleavy. The best play has come from those 3 playing together. I think JO will join that bunch as he gets in tune with them thanks to some actual court time.
Redd, I could agree up till the playoff thing. While teams are more focused and less prone to just being beat, the playoffs are often full of crazy energy/effort/will-to-win plays that tip a game one way or the other. Jeff is the guy that brings that. I only need point to the 2 wins vs Detroit in the brawl season playoffs. That was in big part due to Jeff and it forced Detroit to work on taking him out of games. If others had been able to fill the void after that the Pacers could have won that series.
Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 12-04-2007 at 01:04 PM.
I was attempting to discuss the art of rebounding and what makes certain people particularly great at it.
I didn't mention any time where Dale made an "important" rebound or a time where Jeff made an "unimportant" rebound. The only actual rebound I even mentioned was hypothetical, and I only said that I would prefer a big-bodied banger who could push people around. And I'm not sure I said anything about Dale other than that he's strong
Peck is right about Dale. Dale did 2 things better than Jeff - picks, blocked shots.
However rebounding they were similar, and with Jeff's shooting this year being extended out the margin between the 2 players is shrinking. Bear in mind that Dale was a freaking all-star, and that we are comparing Jeff to that caliber of a player.
Under appreciated comes to mind.
I didn't mean a whole playoff game. I was just saying "playoff intensity" meaning that it was an intense possession (tie game 12 seconds left) where the defense was set rather than a mid-2nd Quarter lazy five-on-four break. It could be in December or May.
Energy guys like Jeff are always ideal to have in a Playoff game. They're always operating a gear or two above everyone else, so when they raise that even further to playoff intensity, they are on a ridiculously high level.