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Thread: OMG, he brings the offense to a screaming stop...

  1. #1
    Member bambam's Avatar
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    Default OMG, he brings the offense to a screaming stop...

    I was going to post this lastnight, but I figured i would sleep on it!

    Well, I feel no different! EVERY game JO is in the offense SLOWS DOWN! When he isnt in the game, the offense runs and runs alot. I am not disrespecting saying JO is not any good. I am saying he does not fit the running style gameplan.

    If we are more of a running team, then why when JO is in the lineup do we goto a set offense? I am tired of people saying JO is a good fit for this offense. I have tried to give it time, but COME ON!

    If he is injured and needs to get to 100%, then sit him for 10 games. Lets see what this team can do for 10 straight games w/o JO. So far with out JO the record speaks for itself.



    Harrison +32
    Rush +30
    Tinsley +30
    Dunleavy +23
    Williams +11
    Foster -3
    Daniels -29
    TEAM AVG -30
    Jermaine -33
    Murphy -51
    Deiner -57
    Granger -70


    Suprising the fact Danny is the lowest plus/minus on the team. But he has also logged more minutes than anyone. So he has been in just about every lineup situation. But, again I am not suprised at all JO is where he is in the negative area. But I like seeing Harrison is the highest on the team. I think think this systems fits Hulk, plus he is getting playing time to.

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    Default Re: OMG, he brings the offense to a screaming stop...

    I couldn't watch the game.....but only listen...so I can't make a valid call after 1 game with JONeal back....but the Pacers radio commentator ( is it Clark Kellogg ? ) mentioned that the player movement grinds to a halt when JONeal gets the ball.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: OMG, he brings the offense to a screaming stop...

    Quote Originally Posted by bambam View Post
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    Harrison +32
    Rush +30
    Tinsley +30
    Dunleavy +23
    Williams +11
    Foster -3
    Daniels -29
    TEAM AVG -30
    Jermaine -33
    Murphy -51
    Deiner -57
    Granger -70Suprising the fact Danny is the lowest plus/minus on the team. But he has also logged more minutes than anyone. So he has been in just about every lineup situation. But, again I am not suprised at all JO is where he is in the negative area. But I like seeing Harrison is the highest on the team. I think think this systems fits Hulk, plus he is getting playing time to.
    Rush is a +30? That seems hard to believe.
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    Default Re: OMG, he brings the offense to a screaming stop...

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Rush is a +30? That seems hard to believe.
    Isn't is just a wonderful, useful stat?

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    flexible and robust SoupIsGood's Avatar
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    Default Re: OMG, he brings the offense to a screaming stop...

    Quote Originally Posted by bambam View Post
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    Harrison +32

    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

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    Member Speed's Avatar
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    Default Re: OMG, he brings the offense to a screaming stop...

    It's really hard to get behind any stat that shows Granger as the guy who is bringing them down and Harrison/Rush as dominant.

    I think it may have to do with sampling size for one relative to how good your team is in outscoring the opponent.

    You'd think it would be dead on, but again I just can't believe Granger is a problem.

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    Member bambam's Avatar
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    Default Re: OMG, he brings the offense to a screaming stop...

    The plus/minus dont really mean a whole lot. But I want to see if anyone here wants to argue the fact that the offense doesnt slow down when JO is in the lineup.

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    Default Re: OMG, he brings the offense to a screaming stop...

    JO doesn't fits in Obie's the system. Trade or bust. He's too fragile these days.

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    Member bambam's Avatar
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    Default Re: OMG, he brings the offense to a screaming stop...

    WITH JO....3-7

    W/O JO....5-1



    Early, but a big difference

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    Go Colts! Shade's Avatar
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    Default Re: OMG, he brings the offense to a screaming stop...

    Can we please stop with the plus/minus garbage being used to try to prove a point? The only point it proves is how pointless the plus/minus stat is.

  11. #11

    Default Re: OMG, he brings the offense to a screaming stop...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    Can we please stop with the plus/minus garbage being used to try to prove a point? The only point it proves is how pointless the plus/minus stat is.
    Yeah I'm not a big fan of it although it's interesting I guess.

    Didn't Jim say that it's a stat that they rely on a lot? That suprises me. I don't see much use for it because there are a lot of factors in the +/- that it is not all black and white.

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    Default Re: OMG, he brings the offense to a screaming stop...

    Quote Originally Posted by bambam View Post
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    The plus/minus dont really mean a whole lot.
    Then WHY did you use it?

    ...and in such large type?

    So you are saying that something you went to the trouble to point out that boldly, doesn't really mean anything?

    OK, makes perfect sense to me.

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    Default Re: OMG, he brings the offense to a screaming stop...

    Like any stat it has to be taken with more in mind than just the number. It does not tell all, but I suppose if properly used can be useful.
    No matter how much success Larry Bird attains in Indiana he'll never top that first command to fire Thomas. -Peter Vecsey. NY Post 12/4/07

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    Default Re: OMG, he brings the offense to a screaming stop...

    I think the +/- indicates an outstanding job by JOB, so far. When the other team puts a weak team on the court, he uses this as an opportunity to get some playing time for some struggling/developing players.
    About JO slowing down the offense-I think he should get a big break. Why is it so hard to understand or believe that a player is really injured? JO has not developed a game that enables him to play at a superstar level without completely relying on his athleticism. Not to compare him with Jordan, but I believe Jordan became great only after he quit relying so much on his athleticism and started playing with his head (getting every call helped a lot too).
    I do agree that he should sit until he is COMPLETELY healed this time-
    same for Ike and Daniels. What's the point in having such a deep team if the players don't take the time to heal properly?
    Last edited by tmhorn15; 12-01-2007 at 07:36 PM.

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    The Doctor's In The House TheDon's Avatar
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    Default Re: OMG, he brings the offense to a screaming stop...

    Another great example of the +/- stat was watching the bulls vs. bobcats game and someone had asked for an explanation of the +/- system. The announcers explained it, then went on to say it's all lies and a bad bad evaluator. They cited Kevin Durant as an example at being -159 on the season "who would ever want a guy with that horrible of a number" they joked.

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    Default Re: OMG, he brings the offense to a screaming stop...

    JO didn't slow down the offense at all last night. They still got good shots and slashed to the basket but they couldn't hit their layups.

    JO had his best game of the season if you ask me. He hit the boards hard and his defense was solid after the first quarter.
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    Default Re: OMG, he brings the offense to a screaming stop...

    Hmmm i didnt know that JO would actually cause the team to shoot horribly. Isnt that really why the offense was bogged down? Because no one could hit a basket, right? Jermaine shot better than most the team, rebounded well too and played D. I just dont think this post is too effective after a game we lost because of bad shooting from the entire team, not something Jermaine did.

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    Default Re: OMG, he brings the offense to a screaming stop...

    Quote Originally Posted by JO4MVP2006 View Post
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    Hmmm i didnt know that JO would actually cause the team to shoot horribly. Isnt that really why the offense was bogged down? Because no one could hit a basket, right? Jermaine shot better than most the team, rebounded well too and played D. I just dont think this post is too effective after a game we lost because of bad shooting from the entire team, not something Jermaine did.
    I hear this argument constantly. It may, or may not be Jermaine's fault, however when he gets the ball, movement halts. When movement stops the quality of shots is going to drop. Why else would ball movement, and player movement be important?

    Jermaine's presence seems to be impeding both. I'm not shocked that shooting is down when he plays. Those guys are just too used to handing him the ball and watching, and he's too used to doing it. Maybe that's it or not, I dunno. We may never know.

    But don't act like his presence cannot and will never effect the shots other players take.

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    Default Re: OMG, he brings the offense to a screaming stop...

    Wait, so its his fault that players dont move? Shouldnt they be moving no matter who has the ball or how long that individual has it(and i know JO needs to be quicker with his decisions but that will come in time.) Im just saying that you cant fault him for the actions of others taught under the previous coach. The other guys need to listen to JOB even when JO has the ball. Its not JOs fault that they are used to handing the ball to him and watching him. JO does need to elevate his game and get adjusted to the new offense, and i think last night was a positive step towards that. Jermaine did not cause those layups to be missed or those 3s.

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    Default Re: OMG, he brings the offense to a screaming stop...

    Where do you want them to "move without the ball"?

    If JO gets the ball on the block, the matter at hand for the other 4 guys is now SPACING. They need to keep AWAY from each-other so that if JO is doubled they can swing it to the open guy. If they dont do this - they can double JO with practically no reprecussions. That's why ball movement and player movement stops, and the offense stagnates.

    Now JO has 2 options - go iso 1on1, or wait for the defense to make a move to double him. He's got to READ the situation and REACT.

    IMO he's not that good in either. Not anywhere near the great ones - Duncan, Garnett, even Shaq is decent. He once used to be very good at iso1on1, but he's not that good at that anymore, when his explosiveness and athleticism are hampered by injuries.

    That's why he's a liability to an uptempo-moving offense.
    That's why the offense halts.

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    Member bambam's Avatar
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    Default Re: OMG, he brings the offense to a screaming stop...

    Quote Originally Posted by JO4MVP2006 View Post
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    Wait, so its his fault that players dont move? Shouldnt they be moving no matter who has the ball or how long that individual has it(and i know JO needs to be quicker with his decisions but that will come in time.) Im just saying that you cant fault him for the actions of others taught under the previous coach. The other guys need to listen to JOB even when JO has the ball. Its not JOs fault that they are used to handing the ball to him and watching him. JO does need to elevate his game and get adjusted to the new offense, and i think last night was a positive step towards that. Jermaine did not cause those layups to be missed or those 3s.

    PLEASE EXPLAIN THIS

    W/O JO: 5-1
    (Pacers: 108.0 ppg - Opp: 103.3 ppg)

    With JO: 3-8
    (Pacers: 99.2 ppg - Opp: 104.5 ppg)

  22. #22

    Default Re: OMG, he brings the offense to a screaming stop...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal
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    Isn't is just a wonderful, useful stat?
    Quote Originally Posted by Speed
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    It's really hard to get behind any stat that shows Granger as the guy who is bringing them down and Harrison/Rush as dominant.

    I think it may have to do with sampling size for one relative to how good your team is in outscoring the opponent.
    Quote Originally Posted by bambam
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    the plus minus dont really mean a whole lot
    Quote Originally Posted by Shade
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    Can we please stop with the plus/minus garbage being used to try to prove a point? The only point it proves is how pointless the plus/minus stat is.

    The +/- is a perfect measure of what is purports to measure. The Pacers have scored 70 fewer points than their opponents while Granger was on the floor. It's true. And they have scored 30 more points than their opponents while Kareem rush was on the floor. That also is true. That doesn't mean that Rush is better than Granger, but it is nevertheless true.

    Speed, sampling size has nothing to do with it. The +/- is based on the universe -- all 240 minutes of every game played so far -- not a sample. But you are right in the rest of your post: the +/- is about how the team does relative to the opponent while you are on the floor.

    Now, we can all just get along here if we recognize that the +/- is not a tool for identifying the best player. Is Granger our worst player? Nah. Does the +/- say he is? Nope. It only says he's been out there on the floor when we were getting outscored.

    We have been outscored by our opponents, so there is going to be an overall negative to the +/- values. The team's +/- is is -30. So Jermaine's -33 isn't all that bad.

    The utility of the +/- is to lead us to situations and match-ups that work and that don't work.

    TheDon points out above that Kevin Durant's +/- is -159. That bad rating doesn't mean Durant is a bad player. It means that he's been on the floor a lot of minutes when the Sonics were overmatched -- which ought to be a surprise to nobody.
    Last edited by Putnam; 12-02-2007 at 09:45 AM.
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  23. #23

    Default Re: OMG, he brings the offense to a screaming stop...

    I agree with Shade that we ought to stop trotting out the +/- as if it proves anything by itself.

    It points out facts that require explanation. That's all.

    Granger's poor rating demands explanation, since we all know he's a great asset.

    Granger is +19 when he is on the floor with Tinsley, Dunleavy, Williams and Foster. But he's played in that combination only 21 minutes.


    Granger is -41 when he plays with Tinsley, Dunleavy Murphy and O'Neal, and he has played 63 minutes there.

    Most of Granger's minutes (100 of them) have been with Tinsley, Dunleavy, Foster and O'Neal. With that group, He has a +1. Which is positive considering that the team is -30 overall.

    So, the eye is drawn to that troublesome lineup with the -41.

    Anybody who wishes to explain why this lineup doesn't work and propose alternatives and fixes. The +/- can't explain it, and doesn't claim to.

    But the poor, little old +/- statistic has served us faithfully and well just by drawing our atention to that troublesome combination.

    N.B. all the values cited here are from www.82games.com.
    Last edited by Putnam; 12-02-2007 at 10:01 AM.
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  24. #24

    Default Re: OMG, he brings the offense to a screaming stop...

    And since this thread is supposed to be about O'Neal, let's consider this.

    When O'Neal plays with Tinsley, Dunleavy, Williams and Foster, the Pacers are +27. And that is a combination that has been on the floor only 11 minutes so far this season.

    Can you dig it, Cyrus?

    The Pacers outscored their opponent by 27 points in less than a quarter while Jermaine O'Neal was on the floor! (So much for the Jermaine-slows-us-down rule. It is true sometimes, but not always.)

    If I were getting paid to do this, I think I'd be looking back over the game film, finding those minutes, assessing what we did right and whether we can use that combination more often once O"Neal get healthy. Wouldn't you?
    Last edited by Putnam; 12-02-2007 at 10:15 AM.
    And I won't be here to see the day
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  25. #25
    Pacers Need A Better GM. !Pacers-Fan!'s Avatar
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    Default Re: OMG, he brings the offense to a screaming stop...

    J.O. is not a Up-Tempo Type Of Player...They Should Trade Him...And Get A Center Who Is Quick...And A Good Rebounder...

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