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Thread: Pacers allow the fewest points in the paint - in the whole NBA

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Pacers allow the fewest points in the paint - in the whole NBA

    That is what Jim O'Brien just said on his radio shows. That means this defense is working because that is exactly what it is designed to do.


    If a guy takes two challenged jump shots in a row, he is taken out

    Pacers shoot 19% in challenged shots. Unchallenged shots, Pacers shot 54%. Slumps are a result of bad shots.

    O'Brien is facinating to listen to.

    Players also get yanked if they pass up open shots

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    Default Re: Pacers allow the fewest points in the paint - in the whole NBA

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    That is what Jim O'Brien just said on his radio shows. That means this defense is working because that is exactly what it is designed to do.


    If a guy takes two challenged jump shots in a row, he is taken out

    Pacers shoot 19% in challenged shots. Unchallenged shots, Pacers shot 54%. Slumps are a result of bad shots.

    O'Brien is facinating to listen to.

    Players also get yanked if they pass up open shots
    Cheers UB. Don't get to hear him often being over here but I'm impressed every time I do.

    I've noticed that points in the paint stat most games, being surprised because a lot of guys on here have been so critical of our ability to stop guys penetrating. Maybe FTs conceded in the paint should be added to get a more complete picture.

    I'm kinda glad he's not coaching my tuesday night social team though, b/c with that challenged shot rule we'd have about 1 guy left on the court by half time

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers allow the fewest points in the paint - in the whole NBA

    Poor Murphy, OB just said that Murph looks a step slow - he wants hiom to lose 10lbs.

    Jim just said that he doesn't take timeouts when his team is winded - if they are winded the other team is more winded. He won't bail his guys out or the other team out with a timeout because someone is tired.

    I love it

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    Default Re: Pacers allow the fewest points in the paint - in the whole NBA

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Poor Murphy, OB just said that Murph looks a step slow - he wants hiom to lose 10lbs.
    Like I said, it doesn't pay to have Murphy bulk up. You're banging your head against the wall.

    It does suck for Murphy that he keeps having coaches tell him to bulk up and then slim down, then have to repeat the cycle all over again. That's not his fault.

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    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers allow the fewest points in the paint - in the whole NBA

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    If a guy takes two challenged jump shots in a row, he is taken out

    Pacers shoot 19% in challenged shots. Unchallenged shots, Pacers shot 54%. Slumps are a result of bad shots.
    This explains a lot!

    I have been griping because Granger isn't very aggressive. He has to be wide open to shoot. It also explains why Tinsley shoots so much. Teams leave him open.

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    Default Re: Pacers allow the fewest points in the paint - in the whole NBA

    Good to know the points in the paint stat, but I wonder how that feeds into the free throws in the paint as well.

    I like the benching for not taking open shots. Though a few could probably pass on a few here or there if it's still early in the clock

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    Default Re: Pacers allow the fewest points in the paint - in the whole NBA

    Yep... it was easily apparent to me that Murph looked out of shape when running the floor as of late. He has to get in shape.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers allow the fewest points in the paint - in the whole NBA

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    This explains a lot!

    I have been griping because Granger isn't very aggressive. He has to be wide open to shoot. It also explains why Tinsley shoots so much. Teams leave him open.
    I hadn't thought of it that way - good point. I hope Tinsley doesn't shoot everytime he's open, because if he does, he'll shoot 35 times a game. I would think maybe there is a little different rule for the point guard.

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers allow the fewest points in the paint - in the whole NBA

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    That is what Jim O'Brien just said on his radio shows. That means this defense is working because that is exactly what it is designed to do.


    If a guy takes two challenged jump shots in a row, he is taken out

    Pacers shoot 19% in challenged shots. Unchallenged shots, Pacers shot 54%. Slumps are a result of bad shots.

    O'Brien is facinating to listen to.

    Players also get yanked if they pass up open shots
    Yet ironically Tinsley is shooting around 38% (which implies tons of challenged shots) and is allowed to play 40 minutes a night. I love quite a bit of what Tins is doing lately, but I have to call BS on this one from Jim. Doesn't add up. If Tins was hitting the bench all the time then okay, or if Tins was putting up a FG% that suggested something closer to that 54% make rate that "open" shots are getting them.

    4 of 16, 25%. Played 41 minutes. Shawne Williams comes off a brilliant night (again), goes 3-5, only gets 21 minutes. Quis gets 5 minutes (0-1, so he didn't even take 2 shots to have 2 in a row be bad) while Rush gets 21 minutes on 4-10...though admittedly most of those were wide open, which only makes the FG% look that much worse.

    Rush was part of a great +/- run, but it was all Tins-Foster-Dun that made the big 3rd quarter run vs POR. No way Rush was playing better defense than Quis does/can. Not shooting better either.

    The point of all this is that there is 100% no way that JOB's sub pattern is that simple. And for all the complaints about favoritism with Rick, I'm still questioning why Shawne gets blasted for defensive lapses while Tinsley gets huge minutes with Diener and Quis buried on the bench. Shawne is great on offense, so you can't just say it's Tinsley's offensive play that keeps him in games. Shawne actually drills a lot of open shots in fact.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 11-29-2007 at 10:48 PM.

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    It Might Be a Soft J JayRedd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers allow the fewest points in the paint - in the whole NBA

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Yet ironically Tinsley is shooting around 38% (which implies tons of challenged shots) and is allowed to play 40 minutes a night. I love quite a bit of what Tins is doing lately, but I have to call BS on this one from Jim. Doesn't add up. If Tins was hitting the bench all the time then okay, or if Tins was putting up a FG% that suggested something closer to that 54% make rate that "open" shots are getting them.
    Well...Jim forgot to mention the amendment portion of his rule about how when you're the only PG on the team you pretty much get to do whatever the hell you want since he has no other options.
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    Default Re: Pacers allow the fewest points in the paint - in the whole NBA

    The point of all this is that there is 100% no way that JOB's sub pattern is that simple. And for all the complaints about favoritism with Rick, I'm still questioning why Shawne gets blasted for defensive lapses while Tinsley gets huge minutes with Diener and Quis buried on the bench. Shawne is great on offense, so you can't just say it's Tinsley's offensive play that keeps him in games. Shawne actually drills a lot of open shots in fact.
    I'm only responding to this because you keep saying it and would hate for this to become something that becomes true because it is said so often.

    Jim was responding to a question about Shawn's good play after a bad team effort by the Pacers. To say, "yeah he was good" when his message to the team was OUR defense was unacceptable would have been showing favoritism. Instead he included Williams with the team and said Shawn need to be better on defense.
    "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

    "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

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    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers allow the fewest points in the paint - in the whole NBA

    about quis last game - he had pain in his knee, that's why he didn't play much

    and i expect that's why rush got the call. it was a golden opportunity for diener too, but well...

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    Default Re: Pacers allow the fewest points in the paint - in the whole NBA

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    Well...Jim forgot to mention the amendment portion of his rule about how when you're the only PG on the team you pretty much get to do whatever the hell you want since he has no other options.


    Quis knee...I suppose. Not sure he was intentionally being held back.

    Now Troy also gets second chances (like the start vs POR), but I have seen him yanked pretty quickly after poor plays, though not simply a contested shot. IIRC he got yanked quickly in the POR game, and he did only get 21 minutes.


    Arcadian, I understand your point, but I don't think your angle is that simple either. He didn't really need to call out Shawne by name. He seemed to suggest that Shawne specifically had defensive problems, rather than shifting the focus back to the team defense.

    And on top of that go check Shawne's game log, look at the minutes played. Now I realize he makes mistakes, but he's also often one of the premiere players on the court. Certainly he's powerful on offense in many ways, but he's also pretty aggressive on the defensive glass, and like David and Danny you'd expect him to get more rope in order to learn. Harrison isn't getting yanked after 2 quick fouls, and he seems to respond moderately well to that.



    Since I've been on this point a lot and it's going to continue, let me clarify this. It's not that I don't like JOB or that I don't understand at least some of what he's doing. I have a chip about all the crap that was dumped on Rick as his fault, and so when I see JOB getting a free pass for similar things I'm going to rant on it a bit. The fact is that Rick often was trying to solve roster issues, and now Jim is facing that too.

    So you get "favorites" and "slog ball" and all sorts of other things. Right now the team is well ahead of how they finished last season, which I'm impressed by quite a bit. But they aren't better than they were last year at this same point in the season, nor the years before that.

    I have no doubts that Rick had plenty of good reasons for yanking players too. I mean is it really wrong to yank Harrison after 2 fouls in his first minute of play? You keep him in with the unreasonable belief that somehow the next 3 minutes will go much better? It might be true, we might be seeing that now (though he's controlled his attitude better all around), but how could you reasonably expect it?

    And the same goes on down the line. Frankly Rick caught tons of crap for not giving young guys a chance, but his rotations always ran 9-10 solid and he typically spread minutes around. Right now JOB seemingly has seen enough of - Owens, Diener, and Graham, and at times Shawne, Harrison and Rush, perhaps even Quis (don't think it's just his knee that pulls him from games). 40 minute nights are starting to be the norm for guys like Tins, Dun and Granger. Foster isn't far behind.

    I don't disagree with JOB on that really because those guys are getting it while others are off and on. But then I was on Rick's side for similar reasons on his various methods.

    Oh, and I do think JOB is handing a small amount of lip service on what will get a guy yanked, etc. I see plenty of bad shots, crap offense and horrible man to man defense. Sometimes it gets a guy yanked, sometimes it doesn't. For all the "good shots" talk, Tinsley's shooting isn't any better this year than last.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 11-30-2007 at 12:37 AM.

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    The Doctor's In The House TheDon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers allow the fewest points in the paint - in the whole NBA

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    I have to call BS on this one from Jim.
    now come on seth everything JOB says is law

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    Default Re: Pacers allow the fewest points in the paint - in the whole NBA

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Jim just said that he doesn't take timeouts when his team is winded - if they are winded the other team is more winded.
    I noticed that when they play, and I love it. I also love the contested shot stat..wow, 19% is low.

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    Default Re: Pacers allow the fewest points in the paint - in the whole NBA

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Pacers shoot 19% in challenged shots. Unchallenged shots, Pacers shot 54%. Slumps are a result of bad shots.
    Very good shooters make challenged shots. I'm not sure we have any of those.
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    Default Re: Pacers allow the fewest points in the paint - in the whole NBA

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown Seth
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    40 minute nights are starting to be the norm for guys like Tins, Dun and Granger. Foster isn't far behind.

    I don't disagree with JOB on that really because those guys are getting it while others are off and on. But then I was on Rick's side for similar reasons on his various methods.
    Like Bill Parcells said: But that's good thing...not a bad thing.

    Play your best players is my motto. It's the only way to win in the NBA. Last thing I ever wanna see is Stephen Graham, Travis Diener or Kareem Rush on the court. If they're out there, it means things aren't going well and the coach has run out of better options.
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    Default Re: Pacers allow the fewest points in the paint - in the whole NBA

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Poor Murphy, OB just said that Murph looks a step slow - he wants hiom to lose 10lbs.

    Jim just said that he doesn't take timeouts when his team is winded - if they are winded the other team is more winded. He won't bail his guys out or the other team out with a timeout because someone is tired.

    I love it
    Yeah I noticed that. . .especially in the Denver game. We killed a lot of clock by doing that!!!
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    Default Re: Pacers allow the fewest points in the paint - in the whole NBA

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    That is what Jim O'Brien just said on his radio shows. That means this defense is working because that is exactly what it is designed to do.


    If a guy takes two challenged jump shots in a row, he is taken out

    Pacers shoot 19% in challenged shots. Unchallenged shots, Pacers shot 54%. Slumps are a result of bad shots.

    O'Brien is facinating to listen to.

    Players also get yanked if they pass up open shots


    That means this defense is working because that is exactly what it is designed to do.

    It also helps that we don't have players playing defense like matadors. Not to mention any former players as to upset any of his defenders here.

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    Default Re: Pacers allow the fewest points in the paint - in the whole NBA

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    Like Bill Parcells said: But that's good thing...not a bad thing.

    Play your best players is my motto. It's the only way to win in the NBA. Last thing I ever wanna see is Stephen Graham, Travis Diener or Kareem Rush on the court. If they're out there, it means things aren't going well and the coach has run out of better options.

    but Graham is averaging 64 points per 48 minutes! We need to sign this guy to a monster extension NOW!
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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers allow the fewest points in the paint - in the whole NBA

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    I noticed that when they play, and I love it. I also love the contested shot stat..wow, 19% is low.
    I've noticed that too (no timeouts when guys get tired). The Denver game was a prime example. Clearly he feels like the farther it goes the more his guys can outlast the other guys via the style they play and perhaps better conditioning from that style.

    Now when PHX or GS show up...well I just wouldn't bank on wearing them out first. I think that's how riders used to stop Lance Armstrong too.


    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    Like Bill Parcells said: But that's good thing...not a bad thing.

    Play your best players is my motto. It's the only way to win in the NBA. Last thing I ever wanna see is Stephen Graham, Travis Diener or Kareem Rush on the court. If they're out there, it means things aren't going well and the coach has run out of better options.
    Well I agree with you kind of, but some of JOB's strategy is to maintain a constant high level of motion. Plus it's not like we have a lot of depth, so what happens if April shows up and you've wiped out Foster, Tins and Dun with 40+ averages? Then you HAVE to see Rush, Diener and Graham. Right now no one wants that either.

    I'd worry about Foster and Tins especially given their recent injury issues. Just like we understand why you hold off on Quis' minutes when you can. 60+ more games is a long way away.

    Of course then again the Pistons (and others) have cranked out huge disparities between starters and bench and pulled it off.


    Also, it's not that I don't get why JOB is doing it. As you point out, the bench is weak and it appears that JOB has figured it out. Gotta get JO and Ike back, push into bigger lineups, and god help us if Quis goes totally out. We might have to see some Dun/Granger/Williams/JO-Ike/Harrison-Foster lineups in order to rest Tins at times. Or maybe the Ball Boy will get on track.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 11-30-2007 at 02:39 PM.

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    Default Re: Pacers allow the fewest points in the paint - in the whole NBA

    You can say what you want about JOBall not winning championships... but this team is definitely a lot better than they have any right to be (especially considering what a non-factor JO has been) and I love the attitude JOB is bringing.

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    Default Re: Pacers allow the fewest points in the paint - in the whole NBA

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    so what happens if April shows up and you've wiped out Foster, Tins and Dun with 40+ averages?

    I have never understood this. We talk about players getting worn out over the course of the season but these are professional athletes. I do not understand legs being gone like people say. I can understand wear and tear because of injuries.

    If conditioning is a probelm then that is something that needs to be addressed with the players. 40 min 82 times a year isnt much to ask of someone you are pay 5 to 20 million dollars a year to.

    With halftime, all the timesouts and fouls I would love to actually see how tired a player is after playing 40 min.

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