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Thread: Off-Season Bust

  1. #26
    Nude Poster Shack80's Avatar
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    Default Re: Off-Season Bust

    Seems a bit silly to make sweeping statements about a team this early into the season. I really think the best thing that can happen is the team lose more than they when and hope for luck in the lottery. Still got to root for a win for my team, but really this retooling thing is a waste.
    No matter how much success Larry Bird attains in Indiana he'll never top that first command to fire Thomas. -Peter Vecsey. NY Post 12/4/07

  2. #27

    Default Re: Off-Season Bust

    I've reached a point where it would not bother me to ship JO and maybe Rush for a very good 2 guard and another big body. JO in this offense doesn't seem to thrive. I would wait until Ike is back. Maybe someone like Jamal Crawford... won't work though. Knicks have nothing but long term bad contracts everywhere. It would take a third team.
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  3. #28

    Default Re: Off-Season Bust

    We don't need Rush or Deiner to be playing much. The Pacers will do best with an 8 or 9 man rotation. They played well versus New Orleans with 8 people getting serious minutes, and that's without O'Neal or Diogu.

    If injuries befall our wingmen, Rush and Deiner will get a chance to play and show what they've got. Then will be the time to care if they can't perform.


    In post #4 OnlyPacersLeft criticizes Deiner because he can only score when he is open, but that is no bad criticism. The purpose of ball movment is to get somebody open, and if Deiner can hit "only" then, he'll still be an asset to the team.


    But it doesn't bother me at all than they've shown nothing yet this season.
    Last edited by Putnam; 11-22-2007 at 08:04 PM.
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  4. #29
    Go Colts! Shade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Off-Season Bust

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    We don't need Rush or Deiner to be playing much. The Pacers will do best with an 8 or 9 man rotation. They played well versus New Orleans with 8 people getting serious minutes, and that's without O'Neal or Diogu.

    If injuries befall our wingmen, Rush and Deiner will get a chance to play and show what they've got. Then will be the time to care if they can't perform.


    In post #4 OnlyPacersLeft criticizes Deiner because he can only score when he is open, but that is no bad criticism. The purpose of ball movment is to get somebody open, and if Deiner can hit "only" then, he'll still be an asset to the team.


    But it doesn't bother me at all than they've shown nothing yet this season.
    You mean, the same 8-9 man rotation that led us to the lottery last season?

    My whole point is, all we did to "improve" the roster of a lottery team was to acquire Diener, Rush, and Stanko.

  5. #30
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    Default Re: Off-Season Bust

    I dont consider them busts, they have pretty much done what i expected them to do this season.
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  6. #31
    One man show ajbry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Off-Season Bust

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    You mean, the same 8-9 man rotation that led us to the lottery last season?

    My whole point is, all we did to "improve" the roster of a lottery team was to acquire Diener, Rush, and Stanko.
    Yup, and I don't understand why it's being viewed as anything different.

  7. #32
    Administrator Roaming Gnome's Avatar
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    Default Re: Off-Season Bust

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    You mean, the same 8-9 man rotation that led us to the lottery last season?

    My whole point is, all we did to "improve" the roster of a lottery team was to acquire Diener, Rush, and Stanko.
    So, injuries had absolutly nothing to do with our landing in the lottery, eh? Then again...why am I so suprised with the knee jerk reactions around here?
    ...Still "flying casual"
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  8. #33
    Go Colts! Shade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Off-Season Bust

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    So, injuries had absolutly nothing to do with our landing in the lottery, eh? Then again...why am I so suprised with the knee jerk reactions around here?
    Sure it did, but those were also injuries suffered by players (Quis, JO) with chronic injury issues. We did nothing to address that and, surprise surprise, both Quis and JO have already missed time this season with those same injuries.

  9. #34
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    Default Re: Off-Season Bust

    Biggest upgrade was the HC change. Players stopped listening to RC. Bird brings in JOB to loosen the reigns and brings in a player-friendly game that's easy on the eyes.

    Having a training camp to get the GS guys integrated sure helped too.

    The wing spots are nicely filled with Granger, Dunleavy, Daniels, and Williams. With Williams commanding more time, Daniels is getting court time at the backup PG spot.

    I admit that I thought Diener and Rush would be contributing more, but it's a long season and they still may play a role in case of injuries. It is nice to see competition for PT and some good offensive flow. Diener and Rush will earn PT through working on their defense, which everyone knew coming in were their weaknesses.

  10. #35

    Default Re: Off-Season Bust

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    My whole point is, all we did to "improve" the roster of a lottery team was to acquire Diener, Rush, and Stanko.

    No arguments, Shade. The Pacers certainly didn't win the past off-season. I agree they didn't do enough, and I would hope everyone does.

    All I'm saying is that Diener and Rush and Graham and Owens needs to be compared with Marshall and Powell and McLeod and Greene. It wasn't their fault the Pacers fell out of contention last year.

    The improvement, if there is any, with be in the development of Granger and Williams, and in the improved health of Daniels and (dare I say it) Tinsley and O'Neal.
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  11. #36

    Default Re: Off-Season Bust

    Putnam,

    Don't forget about Ike! I don't know if most have noticed, but it wasn't until he went out did the team go on their 6-game skid. The reason, IMO, is a two-parter, but Ike is a bigger part of it than most realize, that being we lost some muscle in the interior.

    Ike was coming along nicely in both scoring and his defense. Just go here and look at his stat line through three games! He was actually doing better than JO w/fewer touches and less playing time. (Note: That's not necessarily a knock on JO because as recent reports have stated, JO has been playing w/an injury throughout these first 12 games of the season which has affected his lateral movement as his ability to get lift.) With only JO to anchor the interior (w/the above injury noted) it was easy for teams to force the Pacers into becoming a jump shooting team and beat them knowing their perimeter defense isn't the best. We lost consistency down low. I think once both JO and Ike return healthy, there will be a big improvement to the Pacers overall game. But I digress...

    The issue here is the acquisition of Deiner, Rush, Graham and Owens. I believe Owens and Graham were brought in for their defense. I've seen enough of Owens to know he FG shooting is suspect, but he likes to put the ball on the floor and drive the lane, and as a PG I'm all for that. He just needs to be able to finish on those drives to the basket. I haven't seen enough of Graham to truly make an assessment on his scoring ability, but I do know he's a very good perimeter defender.

    As for Deiner and Rush, I've seen enough of both to know somethings wrong with their shooting touch especially Deiner. As I've said, Deiner's finding iron; his shot's just not falling. Still, he lacks height. So, unless you can get him to take open shots in transition or off high screens, he won't be of much help in iso situations against taller defenders. He's 6'1"; most Guards are around 6'8. Rush...I'm not sure what's going on with him.
    Last edited by NuffSaid; 11-23-2007 at 09:12 AM.

  12. #37
    Member jeffg-body's Avatar
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    Default Re: Off-Season Bust

    Come on now guys, we're already calling them a bust? It's been 12 games and we're close to 500 right now. Diener has fit in nicely and even though he might not score 10-20 an night, he provides us with a nice change up to the Tin man, who is having a nice year so far. As Rush gets more comfortable he will get better.

  13. #38
    Administrator Roaming Gnome's Avatar
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    Default Re: Off-Season Bust

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    Sure it did, but those were also injuries suffered by players (Quis, JO) with chronic injury issues. We did nothing to address that and, surprise surprise, both Quis and JO have already missed time this season with those same injuries.
    What were you expecting, Shade? The team's cap situation is well documented and we didn't have any draft picks. Trades, as much as some of us on P. Digest think we know what is going on with every GM in the league.... We honestly know about as much as my bus driving neighbor. Just because some blow-hard at the LA Times thinks he has trade info, doesn't mean it is accurate or true. We honestly don't know who was on the table for what player. We often speak about a certain player from the Lakers, but who is to say that he was ever on the table? Judging from the game here the other day, I wouldn't be suprised if he was NEVER on the table.

    Honestly, I didn't see a trade this offseason that makes this team better now. Granted, long term is a different story, but it seems like a lot of your belly aching is related to this team's current situation with no true reguard on how to actually fix it.
    ...Still "flying casual"
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  14. #39
    Go Colts! Shade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Off-Season Bust

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    What were you expecting, Shade? The team's cap situation is well documented and we didn't have any draft picks. Trades, as much as some of us on P. Digest think we know what is going on with every GM in the league.... We honestly know about as much as my bus driving neighbor. Just because some blow-hard at the LA Times thinks he has trade info, doesn't mean it is accurate or true. We honestly don't know who was on the table for what player. We often speak about a certain player from the Lakers, but who is to say that he was ever on the table? Judging from the game here the other day, I wouldn't be suprised if he was NEVER on the table.

    Honestly, I didn't see a trade this offseason that makes this team better now. Granted, long term is a different story, but it seems like a lot of your belly aching is related to this team's current situation with no true reguard on how to actually fix it.
    I'm certain that Bynum was never on the table, I'm not talking about a trade with L.A. But when all you do to "improve" a lottery team is pick up a couple of, at best, role players, you can't expect a huge turnaround.

    I made a mistake by drinking the Kool-Aid, but I'm sober now.

    My venom isn't directed at Diener and Rush as it is TPTB for doing virtually nothing this off-season. I will give them credit for dumping Rick, but I will also note that they did so at least a season too late.

    Most of this comes back to why I was opposed to the Golden State deal in the first place. We crippled our future financial flexibility for two guys that are, at best, solid role players. So, now we have to ride out their contracts while wasting JO's prime.

  15. #40
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    Default Re: Off-Season Bust

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    Most of this comes back to why I was opposed to the Golden State deal in the first place. We crippled our future financial flexibility for two guys that are, at best, solid role players.
    I still say this is a (mostly) myth. They make COMBINED (Murphy/Dunleavy) about 1 to 2mm more per year. The only time it really bites is that their contracts run one year longer. What flexibility did Al and Jackson give us? Apparently they could only net us Murphy and Dunleavy. Whooptie-do.

  16. #41
    Go Colts! Shade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Off-Season Bust

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    I still say this is a (mostly) myth. They make COMBINED (Murphy/Dunleavy) about 1 to 2mm more per year. The only time it really bites is that their contracts run one year longer. What flexibility did Al and Jackson give us? Apparently they could only net us Murphy and Dunleavy. Whooptie-do.
    Al still had more trade value than Murphleavy, though. Maybe not a lot more, but he would have been easier to move.

  17. #42
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    Default Re: Off-Season Bust

    Right now we'd just use him at the 4. I doubt we'd trade him.

  18. #43
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    Default Re: Off-Season Bust

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    Right now we'd just use him at the 4. I doubt we'd trade him.
    Actually, we probably would have dealt him (or JO) in the off-season.

  19. #44
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    Default Re: Off-Season Bust

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    His postseason play, swagger, shooting ability, etc., what not? He has the 4th most relevant playoff experience on the team and knows how to win.
    Ummm he wasn't really ever a big reason those teams made the playoffs.

    Barring injury, I would be shocked if Rush doesn't have an important role on the team at some point.
    Barring injury is the ONLY WAY he has an important role.

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy View Post
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    His shooting ability is a myth.
    Basically
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  20. #45
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    Default Re: Off-Season Bust

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Did you think Shawne would have the only bust this off-season?



    -Bball
    Speaking of, let's see those hands again from everyone demanding his trade for his "outrageous" behavior. Funny how all that anti-Shawne, thug ranting magically faded away after he played a few games.


    Not only is Diener out of the rotation, but so is Owens. Remember how Owens and Graham were going to help out so much (and TPTB mentioned it plenty too). I don't even think Owens has looked bad, but he's way out of the rotation now.

  21. #46

    Default Re: Off-Season Bust

    Quote Originally Posted by Robertmto View Post
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    Ummm he wasn't really ever a big reason those teams made the playoffs.
    Fail to see how that's relevant or how that makes his playoff experience on an inexperienced team irrelevant. You tell me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robertmto View Post
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    Barring injury is the ONLY WAY he has an important role.
    We'll see...I will most likely be digging this post up at some point.

  22. #47
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    Default Re: Off-Season Bust

    i think Rush can contribute but he needs to show why he deserves more court time.
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  23. #48
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    Default Re: Off-Season Bust

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    Fail to see how that's relevant or how that makes his playoff experience on an inexperienced team irrelevant. You tell me.
    because he didn;t do anything?



    We'll see...I will most likely be digging this post up at some point.
    doubt it
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  24. #49

    Default Re: Off-Season Bust

    Quote Originally Posted by Robertmto View Post
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    doubt it
    .....


    Kareem has found a way into the rotation, without injury, and has averaged 11.3 points/game over the last 15 games. And his defense has been pretty good, as he's been matching up occasionally against the opponents' top scorer.

    I don't necessarily think he'll be in the rotation for the rest of the regular season, but he will be very important if we make it to the playoffs.

  25. #50

    Default Re: Off-Season Bust

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    .....


    Kareem has found a way into the rotation, without injury, and has averaged 11.3 points/game over the last 15 games. And his defense has been pretty good, as he's been matching up occasionally against the opponents' top scorer.

    I don't necessarily think he'll be in the rotation for the rest of the regular season, but he will be very important if we make it to the playoffs.
    From the way it looks isn't Kareem going to be the new starting shooting guard? A lineup of Jamaal, Kareem, Mike, Danny, and Jermaine?

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