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Thread: Attendance

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    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
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    Default Attendance

    I'm looking at espn.com and it says we are 28th in attendance, and are filling Conseco to just 68% capacity.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/attendance?year=2008

    Obviously Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson had to go. That is obvious. But there is definitely something far more at stake here than those 2 guys. Those 2 so called troublemakers are long gone and the attendance is worse than it has been in many many years. This team has severe problems with its fan base right now. This is pretty alarming actually.

    What do you guys think is going on? I realize Indianapolis is a tiny market, but it was also a tiny market years ago when people were going to games. For some reason, this team has totally lost touch with the area. This pains me.

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    Member Doug's Avatar
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    Default Re: Attendance

    Because it's easier to lose a fan base than to build one.

    The "product" has been driving away fans for a while. It will take some time to win them back.
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    Default Re: Attendance

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug View Post
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    Because it's easier to lose a fan base than to build one.

    The "product" has been driving away fans for a while. It will take some time to win them back.
    Yep. People have also mentioned before that Indy can't really support two professional franchises. Right now the city is fully supporting the Colts.

    Of course, it doesn't help that the Pacers missed the playoffs and are hovering around .500.

    Yeah, ranking 28th is pretty bad. Maybe what Donnie (allegedly) believes is true; maybe the Pacers need to keep doing well and making the playoffs or else the fans will leave, which would ultimately lead to the Pacers leaving Indy.

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    Default Re: Attendance

    The reputational damage has already been done. It took several years to tarnish.

    And it will take several years to repair.
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    The Doctor's In The House TheDon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Attendance

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam1987 View Post
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    we are 28th in attendance.


    That's really quite a shame considering the fact that we were supposed to be where the bulls are at right now and despite things like leading the league in rebounds per game and fewest points in the paint people aren't showing up.

    I honestly wish I lived closer to Indy i'd go for the $10 games, the thing that sucks though is gas prices in recent years have been ridiculous it's about 1 - 1.5 hour drive to Indy from where i'm at and not only that but parking is the biggest rip off in indy. You make a trip down paying only $10 for a game ticket than you add cost of gas is probably another $10 and then parking is another $10-$20. If you want to eat down there it's just another added cost. So for a game where the townies paid about $10 the out of towners are paying around $40-$50 for it through added costs. I honestly think there are plenty of Pacers/Basketball fans in general that would like to watch the Pacers or just a good game of basketball, but few outside of Indianapolis that have the time and money to actually make it to the games. I don't know about the financial situation of the state but I can assure you the economy isn't exactly booming around here.

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    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Attendance

    First of all, Indianapolis is the 12th largest city in the United States. Secondly, this talk about high prices for parking? It cost as little as $2 dollars to park in the Conseco Fieldhouse parking garage. The real problem with Indiana sports fans is they are fickle. They are outraged by the behavior of a few Pacer players? They are outraged because the team hasn't been that great for the last few years. Meanwhile, the Pacers have lost their marquee player Reggie Miller, JO's had recent battles with health issues, Ron Artest was traded, Al Left twice. The coach went from Larry Legend, to IU and NBA great Isiah Thomas, to coach of the year Rick Carlise to Jim O'Brien? The attendance levels started to dwindle late last season when they started to suck.

    '02-'03 16,352
    '03-'04 16,556
    '04-'05 16,994
    '05-'06 16,179
    '06-'07 15,359
    '07-'08 12,517

    They have no marketable players, everybody dwells on the negative and ultimately they have too much player turnover. Most people aren't exactly like us. They don't know every player in the NBA. It's become confusing. Ron Artest, Al Harrington, Reggie Miller, Austin Croshere, Scot Pollard, Stephen Jackson, Anthony Johnson, Fred Jones, Peja Stojakovic, Sarunus Jasikevicius & Darrell Armstrong have turned into Mike Dunleavy Jr., Troy Murphy, Ike Diogu, Travis Diener, Marquis Daniels, Kareem Rush, Shawne Williams, David Harrison & Danny Granger. Only Jamaal, JO and Foster have been the constants, one is a role player and the other two are love/hate players at this point.

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    The Doctor's In The House TheDon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Attendance

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    Secondly, this talk about high prices for parking? It cost as little as $2 dollars to park in the Conseco Fieldhouse parking garage.
    If that's the case I've never knew about it, i've just drove around and tried to find an open lot and a reasonably priced one but ones that are within like an 8 block radius seem to start out at like 8-10 dollars and go up after a few hours quite a bit. It could also have been that the games I have went to the lot was full.

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    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Attendance

    There's plenty of cheap parking in the downtown area. The whole "Event" parking thing is a joke. You can find $3 dollar parking on Sunday's for Colts games, too.

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    The Doctor's In The House TheDon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Attendance

    Good to know, I think the parking garages I can remember staying in are the ones around the mall across from the convention center or just off the side from the hotels.

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    Default Re: Attendance

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    First of all, Indianapolis is the 12th largest city in the United States.
    I seriously hope you're not getting that confused with market size. Please don't tell me you think that Indianapolis is the 12th largest market in the United States.

    Indianapolis is the 12th largest *city* and only is because it "cheats" and counts all of Marion county. Only a handful of cities (Louisville, Nashville) do that.

    For example, Chicago has a city population of 2,873,321. But if it "cheated" like Indy and consolidated it's government with the county and counted all of Cook County as it's city population, it would be 5,288,655!

    City pop is only city limits. And it is a completely useless way to judge how large a market is. Indianapolis as the 12th largest city doesn't include important cities such as Greenwood or Carmel. But Indianapolis as the 33rd largest metropolitan area includes those cities, and is the most important way to judge the size of Indy or any other city.

    Indianapolis is 13th largest "city" with 785,597. Miami is 43rd with 408,043. See how misleading that is? Does anyone in their right mind consider Indianapolis to be a bigger place than freaking Miami, Florida? No way. That 408,043 doesn't include South Beach, Miami Beach. The Miami metro area is 7th largest in the US, compared to Indy at 33rd. Boston and Atlanta are also smaller "cities" than Indianapolis but have metro areas that make Indy seem absolutely tiny.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._by_population

    A good quote from that page "For example, Jacksonville, Florida has a population greater than both Boston and Washington. But Boston and Washington are surrounded by many more suburbs which make their metropolitan area populations much greater than Jacksonville's. Because the metropolitan population is much greater in those cities, there is more dense settlement which leads to more cultural institutions, greater transportation options, and more entertainment attractions."

    I think of Indianapolis as being the 33rd largest market or area in the United States. To call it 12th largest is completely misleading.

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    Default Re: Attendance

    There are many factors. You could blame it on the events that have unfolded over the last few season..on and off the court. Then you have the teams record..etc

    slowly but surely this group of players is starting to bring in some of the casual fans. The more games we win the more they will come back.

    No matter what, im still here with the Pacers
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    Default Re: Attendance

    The core fans will always be there.

    Now that the team is struggling the corporate & casual fans are finding other ways to spend their money.

    Once we win a couple playoff series we'll start to see the corporate & casual fan return.

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    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Attendance

    It could also be a confirmation that the marketing strategy chosen has failed miserably.

    As JoB said recently; this is a player's league, yet the Pacers choose to "sell" the coach.
    No matter the "rep" of the players,without the living highlight adds you will not sell the seats.

    Let's face it, even corporate, despite anything, would you want a picture of you with JoB on the wall in your boardroom, or with JO?

    Which one of the two makes the most impression to a visitor?

    That and attendance yearly averages are always skewed in Indy due to Colts season, 2 away games for them in a row might top-up the attendance a bit, once NFL season ends attendance will rise somewhat as well.
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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Attendance

    I was surprised to see that Sacramento had fallen off that much. I realize their team is worse than ours, but I thought they had enough good will built up woth their fans that it would last a couple of seasons.

    The Hornets need to get out of New Orleans as soon as they can. The team has been gone for two seasons and they are averaging less than 11,500 - that is pretty sad.

    The Hawks must be giving a ton of tickets away

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    Default Re: Attendance

    If I were GSW I would try my hardest to get Yi or Yao.

    San Fran is made up of 19.6% Chinese
    Oakland is made up of 8% chinese

    They would no doubt be number one on that list. And those numbers do not account for illegals.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...an_populations
    Last edited by Major Cold; 12-06-2007 at 10:03 AM. Reason: forgot link

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    Default Re: Attendance

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    It could also be a confirmation that the marketing strategy chosen has failed miserably.
    That's a bit of a leap considering attendance was dropping like a stone during previous years of player-centric marketing. The only conclusion that should be drawn is that the non-player-centric advertising doesn't seem to have worked any better, though you still don't know if player-centric ads would have actually drawn more or fewer people to the arena.

    All that said, I remember reading in the Clippers Non-Broadcasted Game thread that the Pacers actually PAY to be broadcast on FSI. You'd think they could figure out how to also get some over-the-air stations involved if that was the case, though the difficulty is that there is no independent OTA station with a decent broadcasting range any more.
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    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Attendance

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam1987 View Post
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    I seriously hope you're not getting that confused with market size. Please don't tell me you think that Indianapolis is the 12th largest market in the United States.
    Now that *IS* a problem. Because while it's the "Indiana" Pacers and the "Indianapolis" Colts, it's always been clear that the Colts are more of a state team and the Pacers are more of a city team.

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  18. #18
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Attendance

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    That's a bit of a leap considering attendance was dropping like a stone during previous years of player-centric marketing. The only conclusion that should be drawn is that the non-player-centric advertising doesn't seem to have worked any better, though you still don't know if player-centric ads would have actually drawn more or fewer people to the arena.

    All that said, I remember reading in the Clippers Non-Broadcasted Game thread that the Pacers actually PAY to be broadcast on FSI. You'd think they could figure out how to also get some over-the-air stations involved if that was the case, though the difficulty is that there is no independent OTA station with a decent broadcasting range any more.
    They pay to be on, but the Pacers get the advertising dollars. I'm not sure of the exact agreement.

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    Default Re: Attendance

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam1987 View Post
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    I seriously hope you're not getting that confused with market size. Please don't tell me you think that Indianapolis is the 12th largest market in the United States.

    Indianapolis is the 12th largest *city* and only is because it "cheats" and counts all of Marion county. Only a handful of cities (Louisville, Nashville) do that.

    For example, Chicago has a city population of 2,873,321. But if it "cheated" like Indy and consolidated it's government with the county and counted all of Cook County as it's city population, it would be 5,288,655!

    City pop is only city limits. And it is a completely useless way to judge how large a market is. Indianapolis as the 12th largest city doesn't include important cities such as Greenwood or Carmel. But Indianapolis as the 33rd largest metropolitan area includes those cities, and is the most important way to judge the size of Indy or any other city.

    Indianapolis is 13th largest "city" with 785,597. Miami is 43rd with 408,043. See how misleading that is? Does anyone in their right mind consider Indianapolis to be a bigger place than freaking Miami, Florida? No way. That 408,043 doesn't include South Beach, Miami Beach. The Miami metro area is 7th largest in the US, compared to Indy at 33rd. Boston and Atlanta are also smaller "cities" than Indianapolis but have metro areas that make Indy seem absolutely tiny.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._by_population

    A good quote from that page "For example, Jacksonville, Florida has a population greater than both Boston and Washington. But Boston and Washington are surrounded by many more suburbs which make their metropolitan area populations much greater than Jacksonville's. Because the metropolitan population is much greater in those cities, there is more dense settlement which leads to more cultural institutions, greater transportation options, and more entertainment attractions."

    I think of Indianapolis as being the 33rd largest market or area in the United States. To call it 12th largest is completely misleading.

    Agreed - Your point is well made.

    Ticket prices are a major factor in my not attending more games. Simply
    put, as much as I love the Pacers and wish for their success, I cannot
    justify regularly dishing out a bunches of money for 3 hours at-a-time
    worth of entertainment, when there are many other cost-effective means
    of entertainment available.

    And pain free entertainment too, because after sitting for 3 hours in those
    cramped little seats, sometimes my knees start getting really stiff. And
    stiff knees coupled with a lighter wallet are not a good thing...unless of
    coarse the Pacers put on a good show, get the W, and make it worthwhile.
    Otherwise this fan may be leaving out of there with a negative attitude
    after an uncomfortable experience he doesn't wish to repeat too soon.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Attendance

    Whatever the rank of Indianapolis among US municipalities and whatever you think about Unigov, the population of Marion County is nearly 800,000. The population of Marion and the contiguous counties is nearly 1.7 million.

    Conseco Fieldhouse holds about 20,000 people.

    That means there are enough people within 25 miles of the fieldhouse to fill 85 Conseco Fieldhouses.

    So let's please stop explaining poor attendance on the tiny size of our city. If you want to discuss the television revenues, then, yes, we're a small market and that has implications. But we are not too small a city to fill Conseco Fieldhouse. Find another explanation, please.
    Last edited by Putnam; 12-06-2007 at 10:46 AM.
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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Attendance

    Rambo, I understand what you are saying about ticket prices and granted the prices for anything other than balcony seats are rather expensive - although the ticket prices have been lowered in the club level/upper sections 19, 20, 1, and 2 down to $35.00 - which is a good price for those seats.

    But the balcony prices have been lowered across the board to what I believe are reasonable prices.
    There is a couple of sections in the balcony where you can get a full season ticket for 299.00. 45 games at 299.00 is a great bargain. That is $6.65 per game. And that also includes the first row of the balcony. That is a great deal. But even the $10.00 and $20.00 balcony seats are a bargain. And for most games so far, you would have no problem moving down to better seats within the balcony

    I think the seats are rather comfortable, I've never found them to be cramped and little. Now the Colts seats are cramped, little and uncomfortable.


    I completely agree with you Putnam. Just running the numbers, (Conseco did hold 18,345, but when they did the Legends area last season, I think it lowered it down to 18,200 or so) that is not a huge amount of people. The population in the area is more than enough to support the pacers - the problem is right now not enough people want to support them
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 12-06-2007 at 10:49 AM.

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    Default Re: Attendance

    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Slaughter View Post
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    The core fans will always be there.

    Now that the team is struggling the corporate & casual fans are finding other ways to spend their money.
    I was thinking the same thing until I remembered the various stories from people telling me they or their friend/relative just dropped season tickets after X years because of Y to do with the team, or occasionally just the price. Probably a combination for many.

    Once we win a couple playoff series we'll start to see the corporate & casual fan return.
    I'd say if this team, with such low expectations, went to the second round this year (and doesn't get swept there), that would perk people's interests. If they win a couple as you say and land in the ECF that will definitely get others' attention.

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    Default Re: Attendance

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    Whatever the rank of Indianapolis among US municipalities and whatever you think about Unigov, the population of Marion County is nearly 800,000. The population of Marion and the contiguous counties is nearly 1.7 million.

    Conseco Fieldhouse holds about 20,000 people.

    That means there are enough people within 25 miles of the fieldhouse to fill 85 Conseco Fieldhouses.

    So let's please stop explaining poor attendance on the tiny size of our city. If you want to discuss the television revenues, then, yes, we're a small market and that has implications. But we are not too small a city to fill Conseco Fieldhouse. Find another explanation, please.
    It's just not that simple.

    1) Not all can afford it

    2) Not all are sports fans

    3) Not all are basketball fans

    4) Not all are pro basketball fans

    5) Not all are Indiana Pacers fans

    6) Not all like the Indiana Pacers right now even if they used to consider themselves fans

    7) Some have $X to spend on things like this, and would rather go to a Colts game

    8) Some like to watch on TV more than they like to go in person (not only because TV is "free", but because you get the camera views, announcers with stats and updates).

    9) Not many want to commit the TIME to going to a lot of Pacers games. I'm a first year season ticket holder, but I'm undecided on how long I can or want to continue to do so because from the time I leave the house to the time I get home, if I make no other stops but to/from the game, I'm committing about 5 hours of my evening, including about half of them being work nights. That's a lot of time, and I'm saying that now while I'm single. When I'm married? When I have kids? I'm just not convinced I'll want to give up 5 hours for that when I have them at home.

    9b) Gas prices are a *****. If I did nothing else with my car, I'd have to refill it after 3 trips to Conseco from New Castle. That's a lot of money for me, and for many others.

    10) I'm not convinced these are the only valid reasons people are staying away.

    And as I recall, even when the 1994 Pacers went to the second and third round, you could get tickets by walking up to the Arena's box office. It's not like Indy flooded the place then, either. As I recall, the ONLY season were the Pacers sold out all year long, was 1999-2000 because A) That Pacers team was very good and very popular B) It was a brand new Fieldhouse that "everyone" wanted to see

    My conclusion from all of this is that there just are not that many people who either care enough, have the required desire, and/or have the time and money needed to attend Pacers games on a regular basis in this market.

  24. #24
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Attendance

    Mal, my conclusion is simple. You need to move to Indianapolis.

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    Default Re: Attendance

    This is a college basketball state. This state supports the Colts. This state supports it's high school sports. This state does not support the Pacers with the same intensity as the above mentioned.

    1.7 million may live in the area, but not all of those people like sports enough to go to an event. Not all of those people like sports period. And after they watch Caramel play ball on Friday night, watch the Hoosiers/Purdue/Butler play on Saturday night, watch the Colts play on Sunday. Why would they go to the Fieldhouse to watch the Pacers play 1 of 82 games, in December, on a Tuesday night?

    How many home games have been on Friday,Saturday, and Sunday? Is it as much as the rest?

    We have had 5 games at home on those days. Cleveland, Denver, Utah, Dallas, and Miami. All playoff teams last year. All with elite players. 5 out of 10 games are on weekends.

    Detroit is different. They have had 7 home games. 5 out of 7 games are on the weekend.

    Some what to make of it? Detroit has always supported their team in recent years, but they have also played the same amount of home games on the weekend as the Pacers have in less overall home games.

    No matter what I agree we have the people to fill the fieldhouse. But there is no interest. If we continue to play well it may go up. When football hibernates it may go up. When April comes around it will go up. Face it to most NBA fans Nov, Dec, and Jan just does not matter.

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