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Thread: JO ready to take over as number one scoring option

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    Mjolnir Diamond Dave's Avatar
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    Default JO ready to take over as number one scoring option

    http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/preview_071120.html

    Though his scoring average isn’t at its usual level, Jermaine O’Neal has been the Pacers’ go-through guy on offense. Which is to say whether or not he winds up with a shot, O’Neal’s presence dictates much of what the team is able to accomplish.


    Starting with Tuesday’s game against the Los Angeles Lakers, O’Neal plans to begin re-establishing himself as a pre-eminent low-post scorer. Limited by a lack of strength in his left knee through the first few weeks of the season, O’Neal said Monday he’s getting closer to 100 percent and plans to become more assertive as a result

    “I look at where we’re at right now and where I’m at physically, I’m on schedule to get back to where I need to be,” he said. “Obviously, I need to score some more points, get some more rebounds, block some more shots but we’re only 10 games in and we kind of game myself a 10-game cushion to get my rhythm going, get my cardio going. I’m really looking forward to (Tuesday’s) game to really pick it up on the offensive end of the floor.”

    O’Neal has led the Pacers in scoring the past six seasons, averaging between 19.0 and 24.3 points, but currently stands fourth on the team at 13.1 to go with 7.6 rebounds, 3.2 assists and 1.6 blocked shots. He has been and will remain a willing passer but O’Neal’s scoring opportunities should increase as the team continues to gain comfort with Coach Jim O’Brien’s system.

    “I think that'll take care of itself,” O’Brien said. “We are not doing justice to his game with our spacing. What we're looking to get is, when he gets the basketball in the low post, we need a cutter to go at the rim for him to be able to find him. We don't need three cutters because all of a sudden there he is with the basketball in the low post with three of our offensive guys and three of their defensive guys and it's very, very difficult for him to score in crowds. I think his offensive productivity, he'll score at a high level and he'll assist at a high level. He'll assist at a level we have not seen from Jermaine in his career.”

    O’Neal’s reduced scoring led Denver Coach George Karl to suggest Danny Granger has emerged as the team’s primary option. Though Granger is the leading scorer (17.8), the offense nevertheless runs through O’Neal.

    “I think our offense has to run through Jermaine,” said O’Brien. “That doesn't mean Jermaine's going to be the guy that scores the most points. It means Jermaine, for a guy his size, is going to be a big assist guy this year. He'll probably in the long run be our high scorer.”
    The Lakers (6-3) begin a wicked stretch of three games in four nights for the Pacers against Western Conference opponents with a combined record of 22-8. They travel to New Orleans to face the 9-2 Hornets Wednesday then face Dallas (7-3) at home Friday.

    First, they must contend with Kobe Bryant.
    “He’s the best player in the world,” said O’Brien. “He’s been able to put up enormous amounts of points when he puts his mind to it. If he’s interested in scoring, he’s going to score. They’re off to a very good start because they’re getting a great combination of his scoring and ability to play the triangle and create opportunities for everybody. He is one of the best at both ends of the court. Defensively, he showed for USA Basketball this summer he’s one of the great shut-down guys in the world. And his ability to score the basketball is second to none.”

    Granger will draw the defensive assignment against Bryant but likely will have plenty of help. The Pacers will benefit from the presence of Marquis Daniels, who sat out three of the previous six games to rest his tender left knee but appears ready to return to the rotation full-time.

    “I think we’ll be able to have him for both games (Tuesday and Wednesday) as long as we don’t play him an enormous amount of minutes,” O’Brien said. “I think he’s rounding the corner, frankly.”
    TRENDS
    Marquis Daniels has totaled 36 points in 46 minutes while shooting 15-of-21 from the field in his last two appearances. … Indiana is 4-3 when Daniels has played, 0-3 when he has not. … Jeff Foster has averaged 10.7 rebounds in the last three. … Danny Granger has averaged 19.5 points on .506 shooting overall and .485 from the 3-point line at home, compared to 15.3 points, .339 shooting and .158 from the arc on the road. … Kareem Rush has shot 8-of-26 overall and 2-of-10 from the arc in the last five. … Jamaal Tinsley has 38 assists against seven turnovers, a 5.42:1 ratio, in four victories. In six defeats, he has 36 assists and 21 turnovers, a 1.71:1 ratio. … In four wins, the Pacers have averaged 111.0 points on .476 shooting. In six losses, they’ve averaged 93.2 points on .406 shooting. … In four wins, Indiana holds a 111-87 advantage in points of turnovers. In six losses, opponents hold a 112-86 advantage.


    SERIES
    The teams have split the past four seasons with each protecting its home court. The Lakers’ last win in Conseco Fieldhouse came on Feb. 4, 2003. The Lakers lead 49-18 overall and 19-14 in Indianapolis.


    INJURIES
    Pacers - F Ike Diogu (left calf strain) is out.
    Lakers - F Ronny Turiaf (left ankle sprain) is questionable; C Kwame Brown (ankle, knee) is out.



    Ugh...does this mean slowing it down, forcing fadeaway jumpers while everyone not named Jeff Foster is 2 feet behind the arc.

    I swear to God I'll go apesh*t if at some point O'Brien starts talking about the unimportance of offensive rebounds so that we can be in position to stop the fast break.

    Opinion time. Will JO be satisfied if at the end of the season if Granger averages more points than he does?
    Last edited by Diamond Dave; 11-20-2007 at 10:54 AM.
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  2. #2
    Tyrant maragin's Avatar
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    Default Re: JO ready to take over as number one scoring option

    I would have been impressed if JO had opted for a more team-first/ whatever it takes to win attitude. Game 9 rather than game 8 this year?

    Silver lining: Maybe he'll put up 45/19/7 on the Lakers... and increase his trade value.

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    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: JO ready to take over as number one scoring option

    Quote Originally Posted by maragin View Post
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    I would have been impressed if JO had opted for a more team-first/ whatever it takes to win attitude. Game 9 rather than game 8 this year?

    Silver lining: Maybe he'll put up 45/19/7 on the Lakers... and increase his trade value.
    Maybe you missed the part where JoB asked/expects him to do more scoring?

    According to JoB the offense is better balanced that way.

    But what does he know
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    Default Re: JO ready to take over as number one scoring option

    Can JO score more without the offensive movement (players and ball) slowing or stopping? If not, I hate this idea.

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    Default Re: JO ready to take over as number one scoring option

    Well we do need him to score more for the inside-out game to work. Otherwise all we have is the outside game. We need Jermaine's scoring for the same reason we miss Ike.

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    Default Re: JO ready to take over as number one scoring option

    I'm all for JO scoring more points - but not at the expense of team play - would hate people to stop cutting because JO needs to increase his points total....

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    Default Re: JO ready to take over as number one scoring option

    I can already hear Peck's profanity-laced tirade.

    I guess the Forum Party just got a whole lot more interesting, one way or the other.

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    Default Re: JO ready to take over as number one scoring option

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    Can JO score more without the offensive movement (players and ball) slowing or stopping? If not, I hate this idea.
    Amen.

    This could work one out of two ways: It could benefit the offense but allowing us to have more of an inside game to augment our quick moving, jump shot oriented offense, or it could slow down and destroy the whole thing and we'll look like we're playing RC ball again.

    Tonight's game should be interesting. We all really have something to look for. Damn my boss for calling me in tonight.

  9. #9

    Default Re: JO ready to take over as number one scoring option

    Averaging 13 points is bad. Wanting to improve on that is bad.

    No where did I see anyone say the offense was going to change.
    "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

    "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

  10. #10
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    Default Re: JO ready to take over as number one scoring option

    J.O. will score more,
    He proclaims to the fans.
    But words come easy.
    You're caught up in the Internet / you think it's such a great asset / but you're wrong, wrong, wrong
    All that fiber optic gear / still cannot take away the fear / like an island song

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    Default Re: JO ready to take over as number one scoring option

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan_The_Dude View Post
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    Well we do need him to score more for the inside-out game to work. Otherwise all we have is the outside game. We need Jermaine's scoring for the same reason we miss Ike.
    I'm thinking along these same lines as well. I would rather JO post up more than just have the team settle for (and miss) bad jumpshots. At the very least it'll draw the attention of the defense and leave some shooters wide open.

    But the other players need to MOVE. It doesn't have to be like last year. It can work, but players need to continue to cut to the basket and try to get open. If they just stand around it won't work.

    We've all seen what happens when the team the team doesn't run, doesn't attack the rim, and can't hit their shots. It's good to have JO's post scoring to fall back on. At the very least it'll draw some fouls.

  12. #12
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: JO ready to take over as number one scoring option

    Anyone who heard the JoB show last night has the explanation right there, indeed, otherwise the inside out game would never work, they will have to understand that there are 2 poisons to take, inside (read JO) or outside (read our shooters, you can shut one down, not both, for that to be established, JO needs to score more.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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    Default Re: JO ready to take over as number one scoring option

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    Anyone who heard the JoB show last night has the explanation right there, indeed, otherwise the inside out game would never work, they will have to understand that there are 2 poisons to take, inside (read JO) or outside (read our shooters, you can shut one down, not both, for that to be established, JO needs to score more.
    I hope Obie's able to find the right mix. Right now, it just feels a bit clunky.

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    Default Re: JO ready to take over as number one scoring option

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcadian View Post
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    Averaging 13 points is bad. Wanting to improve on that is bad.

    No where did I see anyone say the offense was going to change.
    Yes you did, here let me requote it for you.

    “We are not doing justice to his game with our spacing. What we're looking to get is, when he gets the basketball in the low post, we need a cutter to go at the rim for him to be able to find him. We don't need three cutters because all of a sudden there he is with the basketball in the low post with three of our offensive guys and three of their defensive guys and it's very, very difficult for him to score in crowds."

    Now I don't have time to go back and re-read every single quote from Jim O'Brien but to my knowledge this is the first time I remember reading him talk about spacing and only one person cutting.

    This my friends is the absolute definition of what Rick Carlisle ran over the last couple of years. Everybody haning on the arc and Stephen Jackson cutting in the lane while J.O. proceded to go 1 on 3.

    Let's not forget that he would get some nice looking assists going to Jackson as well so this whole "he'll get assist" is not a new thing.

    This also goes along with something I thought was weird about the O'Brien show last night. All season long, even when he was out with injury's, he kept emphatically saying that Troy Murphy would be the starter along with J.O.

    Now last night he said that it could either be Murphy or Foster. My guess is that with the return of the half court slog ball we will see more of the same.

    In other words the exact same lineup it has been for years with Tinsley, Foster and O'Neal. Only exchange the names Miller and Artest for Dunleavy and Granger.

    Now to the shock of some I will say this, I have no real problem if we use this as a weapon in our arsenal. However if this becomes the offense again then all of that talk from Bird and O'brien was just that, TALK.


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    Default Re: JO ready to take over as number one scoring option

    Although I don't like that the offense will run through JONeal more ( cuz I too am concerned that we could revert back to slog-ball ), as long as he is able to pass it out effectively and ( more importantly ) the rest of the team is moving around trying to get open while not clogging up the paint....then I am more then willing to see how the offense would work.

    However, this does bring up an interesting question. Correct me if I am wrong...but I thought one of the tenants of JO'Bs offense is to get the offense going as soon as possible upcourt so that the opposing defense doesn't have time to setup their defense.

    If the offense is going to run more through JONeal....but he is one of the few ( if not the only ) players that is essentially "given a pass" on not running up the court as fast as possible to get into the offense ( as mentioned in JO'Bs radio show yesterday )....then how will our offense run if it's going to somehow run through JONeal while sticking to the "3 second" rule?
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    Default Re: JO ready to take over as number one scoring option

    Quote Originally Posted by Aw Heck View Post
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    I'm thinking along these same lines as well. I would rather JO post up more than just have the team settle for (and miss) bad jumpshots. At the very least it'll draw the attention of the defense and leave some shooters wide open.

    But the other players need to MOVE. It doesn't have to be like last year. It can work, but players need to continue to cut to the basket and try to get open. If they just stand around it won't work.

    We've all seen what happens when the team the team doesn't run, doesn't attack the rim, and can't hit their shots. It's good to have JO's post scoring to fall back on. At the very least it'll draw some fouls.
    I think he's trying to post-up more, but his leg injury won't allow for too much movement right now although he did play very well against the Jazz to kill that 6-game losing skid. If he comes out and performs against the Lakers (ummmmm, Bynum...y'all know that's what the article reposted here is really about) the same way he did against the Jazz and we're able to slow Kobe to about 20-25 pts, I expect the Pacers will win.

  17. #17

    Default Re: JO ready to take over as number one scoring option

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Yes you did, here let me requote it for you.

    “We are not doing justice to his game with our spacing. What we're looking to get is, when he gets the basketball in the low post, we need a cutter to go at the rim for him to be able to find him. We don't need three cutters because all of a sudden there he is with the basketball in the low post with three of our offensive guys and three of their defensive guys and it's very, very difficult for him to score in crowds."

    Now I don't have time to go back and re-read every single quote from Jim O'Brien but to my knowledge this is the first time I remember reading him talk about spacing and only one person cutting.

    This my friends is the absolute definition of what Rick Carlisle ran over the last couple of years. Everybody haning on the arc and Stephen Jackson cutting in the lane while J.O. proceded to go 1 on 3.

    Let's not forget that he would get some nice looking assists going to Jackson as well so this whole "he'll get assist" is not a new thing.

    This also goes along with something I thought was weird about the O'Brien show last night. All season long, even when he was out with injury's, he kept emphatically saying that Troy Murphy would be the starter along with J.O.

    Now last night he said that it could either be Murphy or Foster. My guess is that with the return of the half court slog ball we will see more of the same.

    In other words the exact same lineup it has been for years with Tinsley, Foster and O'Neal. Only exchange the names Miller and Artest for Dunleavy and Granger.

    Now to the shock of some I will say this, I have no real problem if we use this as a weapon in our arsenal. However if this becomes the offense again then all of that talk from Bird and O'brien was just that, TALK.
    There are other places to move besides cutting. Having seen four players stand around watching JO for so long it is understandable why Pacer fans have forgotten that. O'Brien's goal is to clog the middle on Defense and open it up on offense. Having 3 players cutting goes against that.

    The slog ball was due to Rick's philosophy of slowing down the game, working the clock, and going to what he felt was the highest percentage shot--a JO post up. It was perdictable, gave us less time to work with, and showed he had very little faith in his players.

    But I agree it is all TALK. We haven't seen the dreaded slog ball.
    "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

    "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

  18. #18
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    Default Re: JO ready to take over as number one scoring option

    I agree wit hthe coach. We need more balance. When Dun and Granger aren't hitting shots we need people like JO as a stablizer. We have counted on Ike, Shawne, and Daniels for this. Why not count on JO?

    But that is not what JO is thinking is it? Since I can read between the lines and therefore read his mind I can see that JO wants to slow it down and take control completly. He wants the offense to go through him soley, that is what he wants.

    I am going to wait and see if we can implement his skill set (diminishing or not) on a reliable pace.

    But with JO reliability is subjective.

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    Default Re: JO ready to take over as number one scoring option

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    If the offense is going to run more through JONeal....but he is one of the few ( if not the only ) players that is essentially "given a pass" on not running up the court as fast as possible to get into the offense ( as mentioned in JO'Bs radio show yesterday )....then how will our offense run if it's going to somehow run through JONeal while sticking to the "3 second" rule?

    The primary offense described in the OP is going to run through Jermaine, and he needs to get upcourt to participate in it. This will happen after the other team scores or after another Pacers gets a rebound or a steal.

    The Bill Russell Rule applies only when Jermaine hauls in a defensive rebound and makes a forward outlet pass leading to a fast break. Jermaine gets 5-10 defensive rebounds per game, so that is the maximum number of possessions for which he is excused from running.
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    Default Re: JO ready to take over as number one scoring option

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    This also goes along with something I thought was weird about the O'Brien show last night. All season long, even when he was out with injury's, he kept emphatically saying that Troy Murphy would be the starter along with J.O.

    Now last night he said that it could either be Murphy or Foster. My guess is that with the return of the half court slog ball we will see more of the same.

    I took note of that also. But for a completely different reason. A whole lot of players have come and gone and there has been a whole lot of dicussion about how Foster needs to be replaced, and yet he always remains standing .
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 11-20-2007 at 04:16 PM.

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    Default Re: JO ready to take over as number one scoring option

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcadian View Post
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    There are other places to move besides cutting. Having seen four players stand around watching JO for so long it is understandable why Pacer fans have forgotten that. O'Brien's goal is to clog the middle on Defense and open it up on offense. Having 3 players cutting goes against that.
    Didn't someone post in the Pacer/Jazz Game thread that it looked like JO'B pulled Granger and Murphy (?) in the 3rd QTR when it looked like they were standing around watching JONeal work the middle and put in Shawne and Foster ( which, thankfully got us out of our 3rd QTR slump )?

    What I hope that JO'B preaches and emphasize is the off-the-ball-movement that does not clog up the middle. But more importantly, if he's not happy with the off-the-ball movement coming from the players on the floor....regardless of who it is...he will pull the player in favor of someone that does move and get into the right spot for JONeal ( or Ike when he returns ) to get into a position to pass the ball to. I will be okay with the offense running through JONeal IF there is alot of off-the-ball movement and the players are at least getting to the right spot for JONeal to pass the ball to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcadian View Post
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    The slog ball was due to Rick's philosophy of slowing down the game, working the clock, and going to what he felt was the highest percentage shot--a JO post up. It was perdictable, gave us less time to work with, and showed he had very little faith in his players.

    But I agree it is all TALK. We haven't seen the dreaded slog ball.
    I know that his low-post shot maybe predictable...but I would much rather have JONeal attempt to take those high-percentage low-post shots....even if he is double or tripled teamed...as long as the 2 other open players are able to move and get into good position for him to pass the ball to. The key is for the other players to recognize this and move so that JONeal can pass the ball to the open man.

    If JONeal is in the low-post...I would much rather have him "shoot first and pass second". But if he is in the high-post.....I would much rather that he "look to pass first and then shoot second" then for him to take one of his patented ( but low-perecentage ) jumpshots.
    Last edited by CableKC; 11-20-2007 at 03:44 PM.
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    Default Re: JO ready to take over as number one scoring option

    How many people honestly expect JO to average 13 points this season even in a fast paced offense where he passed more? None? C'mon people I don't see anything to be panicked about in what he says. What we see on the court could change that, but there is nothing in these quotes to get upset about.

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  23. #23

    Default Re: JO ready to take over as number one scoring option

    Is there a correlation with JO scoring more points and the Pacers winning more often?

    I am talking about for a week, for a month, for any extended stretch of time, or for a season?

    Panic should not set in, and JO is our best player, and hopefully he gets well enough to take MORE GOOD SHOTS, ALL WITHIN THE FLOW OF THE O'BRIEN OFFENSE.

    I don't see a reason to expect that slog-ball is back, but the need for JO to thump his chest and assert himself as "the man" makes me a bit uneasy.

    An efficient 16-17 ppg might be good from him. I have a feeling that getting 20+ from him means breaking the offense and having him make about 42% of his shots.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: JO ready to take over as number one scoring option

    Quote Originally Posted by pacertom View Post
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    An efficient 16-17 ppg might be good from him. I have a feeling that getting 20+ from him means breaking the offense and having him make about 42% of his shots.
    JONeal can score 20+ points...but unless he starts shooting more high-percentage shots in the low-post / paint and less low-percentage jumpshots in the high-post.....I don't see how "efficiently" he can score without taking way more FGA....which ( to me means ) going back to the way we played before instead of what I liked to see this season where the offensive touches/scoring was more distributed among a wider # of players as opposed to just a few players.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: JO ready to take over as number one scoring option

    With Jermaine being a force down low, it makes the whole game a lot easier. Teams are going to have to double team him or he'll be at the line all night long
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