Results 1 to 11 of 11

Thread: What are the TWO major differences between our win and loss to the Wizards?

  1. #1
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Free Lance!
    Posts
    7,851

    Default What are the TWO major differences between our win and loss to the Wizards?

    1. Jermaine O'Neal did not play in the win.

    2. Ike Diogu did play in the win.


    Coincidence?

    Here's the thing:

    - Ike brings our only effective low post threat (JO is not, sorry. He's a fadeaway 40 percent threat, and that's generous.) Ike can create once he gets the ball. Ike hits his shot from outside FAR better than JO.

    - This is much more important: JO's mere presence leads to slog ball. I'm not sure exactly why. It just does. His whole style, attitude and demeanor make the rest of the guys wait around for him to do something.

    Okay. Maybe I'm wrong. If so, please someone tell me why the heck we ran like cabanches in the first game and stood on the perimeter tonight? Did JOB have a different strategy tonight. Really, I want to know.
    Last edited by McKeyFan; 11-15-2007 at 12:09 AM.
    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  2. #2
    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    New Haven, CT
    Posts
    8,748

    Default Re: What are the TWO major differences between our win and loss to the Wizards?

    Also, Tinsley played like an all-star in the first game...

  3. #3
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Free Lance!
    Posts
    7,851

    Default Re: What are the TWO major differences between our win and loss to the Wizards?

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Also, Tinsley played like an all-star in the first game...
    Can there be a correlation between Tinsley's good play and JO's absence?

    Does JO's presence slow Tinsley up and/or prevent him from penetrating and kicking out?
    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  4. #4
    DIET COKE! Trader Joe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Troll Hunting
    Age
    26
    Posts
    29,151

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: What are the TWO major differences between our win and loss to the Wizards?

    May I point out several things...

    1.) Our shooting percentage tonight and the night of the win was only 2 percent different.
    2.) We made 13 threes in the first game against the Wiz only 8 tonight. Say JO slows down the offense all you want, but I highly doubt is presence results in less open 3 point looks for our shooters.
    3.) JO causes slog ball? Really? In game 1 against the Wiz we put up 92 shots in 4 quarters and OT. In this game tonight we put up 84. I'd wager if we played OT today we would have hit 92.
    4.) Now here is where it really gets good. In game 1 against the Wiz we shot 36 FTs tonight we shot 19. Sure the numbers are slightly inflated from the OT period but not by a whole lot.
    5.) But heres the real key, Gilbert Arenas. Game 1 he goes 10/25 and 1/8 from the arc...tonight 9/18 from the field 3/11 from the arc and scores 4 less points, but on nearly 7 less shots. He was much more efficient.
    Oh and this guy named Caron Butler scored 6 more points tonight on two less shot attempts then he did this first game.


    Look you whant to try and sell me that not having Ike hurt us, then I'll buy it all day cause we are missing Ike's presence off the bench in a huge way. However you aren't gonna sell me that JO playing is one of the reasons we lost. Well unless you actually think JO is the reason we played worse D on Arenas or Butler, in which case I don't know what to tell you.

    Has it occured to anyone that maybe we just aren't a very good offensive team? With or without JO? You name me one offensive player we have that doesn't have a major deficiency. Seriously name one guy on this entire roster that doesn't have a glaring weakness to his offensive game. Guess what you can't. Thats what separates us from pretty much every other team in the NBA.
    Last edited by Trader Joe; 11-15-2007 at 02:18 AM.

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
    momentarygodsblog.com https://twitter.com/momentarygods

  5. #5

    Default Re: What are the TWO major differences between our win and loss to the Wizards?

    You can clearly see the difference with or without JO on the offensive end. Especially because Tinsley has made it a habit to dump it to JO on the first occasion.

    I thought we were gonna use JO in the flow of the offense, but that hasn't happened the last few games.

    Maybe it's JO, maybe it's Tinsley, heck maybe it's JOB but we are not playing the same as the first 2 games of the season (and preseason).

    With the attention on JO in the offense Dunleavy has disappeared almost completely. I like to see us get back with Mike being the facilitator and use JO less in the offense.
    Maceo Baston's #1 fan on Pacers Digest!

  6. #6
    ENABEABLER MagicRat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,682

    Default Re: What are the TWO major differences between our win and loss to the Wizards?

    http://www.82games.com/0708/07IND13D.HTM

    This doesn't include last night's game yet, but they are averaging 106.1 points per 100 possessions without JO on the court and 93.6 points per 100 possessions with him on the court. They're also giving up fewer points with him on the court, but not enough to offset the lower offensive numbers.
    Last edited by MagicRat; 11-15-2007 at 08:15 AM.
    PSN: MRat731 XBL: MRat0731

  7. #7
    You are my Lucifer D-BONE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Nirvana
    Posts
    6,526

    Default Re: What are the TWO major differences between our win and loss to the Wizards?

    Here's an idea as to the FTA decrease and JO's presence. The FTA decrease would indicate less aggressive forays to the basket replaced by outside shots. This seems to be a complaint some on the board have had about our O the last several games.

    While taking open Js is a big part of JOB's offensive philosophy, IMO we definitely complemented that with taking the ball to the rim in the first couple games. Or at least aggressively penetrating off the dribble to then kick out for shots or further ball rotation.

    So maybe JO's presence alone alters the offense enough to make dribble drives into the paint harder to accomplish. The lane is more often occupied; less open for penetration. This could be b/c that's just where he tends to roam and/or we run more plays with him in the lineup where he is a focal point on the block.

    I find this odd, b/c JO seemingly used to take the 15-18 foot shot more often and with reasonable success. That would seemingly be something that a big in JOB's offense would thrive on. Ike, and to a lesser degree Foster, have taken advantage of this from time to time. JO's quick drives toward the basket haven't reappeared so what we generally end up with from him is lots of low post isolation prolonged back downs that turn into turn around fade away Js.

    Of course, with both JO and Foster on the floor the other teams ability to add to clogging the lane is probably increased. I have been unable to see the last two games, but I saw the losses and wins prior and people's comments since. My view is that the driving, kicking, and crisp ball rotation, not to mention running the floor with purpose, have all vanished. And Dun's suddent drop off is very concerning.

  8. #8
    Member BoomBaby33's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    On The Westside
    Posts
    771
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: What are the TWO major differences between our win and loss to the Wizards?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Can there be a correlation between Tinsley's good play and JO's absence?

    Does JO's presence slow Tinsley up and/or prevent him from penetrating and kicking out?
    My opinion:

    1a. JO didnt play game one. Tins only looks for JO when those 2 are in the game, just watch the next game. Its true. Tins will look away from a wide open or curling DunDun to JO being double teamed and get it to JO.

    1b. Ike plays alot better in this offense, because he crashes the boards when we take a long range shot. I would have to do some research, but my guess is that our offensive rebounding has been horid since Ike went down to injury.

    2. Murphy didn't play game 1 either. We are 3-1 without him, and 0-4 with him (see my stats on the Wiz/Pacers post game thread). Both he and JO slog down our wide open offense. By the time we hit game one, the team had been playing without JO and Murph for about 4 games, and the team was in rythem. (Once again, I think we are seeing Ike's value here). Shoot, they dropped 140 on the Grizz 2 games before the season started. Hate to say it, but JO, Tins, and Murph our the Pacer downfalls this season. Bottom line. (Beating a drum here - but I think we could get 2 of them (Tins and Murph, out of here pretty easy and pick up marbury - im not a great marbury fan, but it will make us better).

  9. #9
    Member BoomBaby33's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    On The Westside
    Posts
    771
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: What are the TWO major differences between our win and loss to the Wizards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Has it occured to anyone that maybe we just aren't a very good offensive team? With or without JO? You name me one offensive player we have that doesn't have a major deficiency. Seriously name one guy on this entire roster that doesn't have a glaring weakness to his offensive game. Guess what you can't. Thats what separates us from pretty much every other team in the NBA.
    Im not convinced of this. We are averaging over 100 points in the pre-season and the first 4 games. We dropped freakin 140 against the Grizz, shooting a very high FG%.

    We have a couple players who slog us down, and they continue to get PT.

  10. #10

    Default Re: What are the TWO major differences between our win and loss to the Wizards?

    How about Granger hitting 4-13 and Tinsley with 3 assists and 5 turnovers.
    this team will struggle to score all year.
    they'll have nights when the jumpers are going in and all will look good.
    for the most part they'll struggle though..

  11. #11
    Raw Talent Robertmto's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    The Nap
    Posts
    5,236
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: What are the TWO major differences between our win and loss to the Wizards?

    We're actually hitting jumpers now. You guys got lucky in the first
    STARBURY

    08 and Beyond

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •